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RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/30/2013 6:13:14 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Which of their criteria would you cite in support of these claims?

They want in a general sense the freedom to pollute, at least no less or even more than they are, the freedom to pay less than minimum wage, the freedom from any collective bargaining or the effects of same, i.e., the freedom to conduct business to maximize profits without concern for any of society's concern. They want the freedom to blow people off oil platforms and bury then in coal mines.

All other issues are mainly used as a means to gather emotional support in order to simply help finance the overall influence of their business goals.

Maybe you didn't understand the question. Let's try again. Ready?

Which of their criteria would you cite in support of these claims?

K.

Seems I need to read the whole thing for you ?

Regulatory Policy, Fiscal Policy Conclusion

Although we hope we have demonstrated that some states provide freer environments than others, it would be inappropriate to infer that the freest states necessarily enjoy a libertarian streak, while others suffer from a statist mentality

'Freer environment is code for free to conduct business as they wish with a pursuit to minimize the regulatory environment.

Statist mentality is code for the resistance to de-regulate the 'regulatory environment.'

State Profiles: a survey of free-market policy analysts at think tanks associated with the State Policy Network (SPN).

All code for more deregulation and tax regimes and how they relate to profit goals.

Effects of the Federal Stimulus on State & Local Governments: then admit that 'While the stimulus was passed immediately after the period covered by this study, we can use findings on the effects of federal grants on state policies to infer what the long-run consequences of the stimulus will be.' This is unmitigated bullshit.

.....'the only effort to code both economic and personal freedom in the 50 states. Other studies compare economic freedom or “competitiveness” in the states but do not treat other critical aspects of individual liberty or selectively subsume a few noneconomic issues within economic freedom concepts. More unmitigated bullshit and more inference.

The goal is to conflate personal freedom with economic freedom, i.e. economic freedom meaning low or non-regulatory and low tax environment for either the Koch businesses or others like them.

This is ALL quite obvious throughout the whole study with the coding and assuming and inferring just what ? What I said in my previous post and such that anybody could easily read and obtain from the link and I should not have had to point out...the obvious..


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 3/30/2013 6:17:27 PM >

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/30/2013 6:43:09 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		"Right to Work" states don't mean those states are more "free".That just mean employers have more freedom to fire someone for any number of bogus reasons,unrelated to the job task at hand.I do agree though,that Unions should not be allowed to "force" someone into their Union.If someone does not want to join a union,that shouldn't be reason to fire someone.

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/30/2013 7:11:02 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Kirata
Personally, I think you need to get out more. They managed to get the attention of GenocideWatch. At one point the situation had reached Stage 6. It has now been downgraded to Stage 5, no thanks to Jacob Zuma, who, by the way, is the fellow your post refers to as "the brutal looking black." At least you got that right.

Acting Judge of the South Gauteng High Court, Leon Halgryn declared that the song is hate speech, and it is unconstitutional to either utter or sing “dubul’ibhunu” (“shoot the Boer.”) He issued an injunction against Malema, ordering him to no longer sing the song. The phrase is now considered hate speech. Julius Malema was shortly thereafter removed as President of the ANC Youth League, and ejected from the ANC. However, Malema’s followers have defied the judgment and continue to sing the song... President Jacob Zuma sang “Shoot the Boer” at the ANC Centenary Celebration event in January of 2012.


Genocide??? It seems that reactionary Boer elements are trying, for propaganda purposes, to elevate a campaign by militants to reclaim white-owned farms into a campaign of genocide against whites. While the levels of violence on the farms are deplorable, these crimes seem to be politically and economically motivated rather than hate crimes as they are commonly understood.

So, it seems that the claim of genocide relies on a few old images and some politicians singing a rather ugly song. And precious little else. Puh-leeeaasseee! It takes more than a few tired images and few politicians singing a song before one can talk about genocide. And Genocide Watch is quite specific about it not being genocide, as this excerpt from their website shows:

"Genocide Watch continues to be alarmed at hate crimes committed against whites, particularly against Boer farmers, an important early warning sign that genocide could occur. Those who commit such crimes must be promptly brought to justice, and denounced by the political leaders of South Africa. Genocide Watch’s first six stages do not constitute genocide. Watch does not believe that genocide is currently underway in South Africa."
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html (emphasis added)

So talk about a genocide against white South Africans turns out to be little more than hot air generated by ultra-Right Boers still fighting the Cold War against "Marxism-Leninism" and hankering for a return to the good old days of apartheid.

You really should know better.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/30/2013 7:24:59 PM >

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RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/30/2013 8:21:31 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		'Right to work', and 'Fire at will' states are 2 different things.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

"Right to Work" states don't mean those states are more "free".That just mean employers have more freedom to fire someone for any number of bogus reasons,unrelated to the job task at hand.I do agree though,that Unions should not be allowed to "force" someone into their Union.If someone does not want to join a union,that shouldn't be reason to fire someone.



_____________________________

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" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/30/2013 8:24:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

freedom from discrimination based on gender or sexuality is 0% of the rating.

You're just making shit up as usual.

Marriage and civil-union laws and arrests for victimless crimes are each worth 16.2 percent of personal freedom... Marriage and civil-union laws are coded equally with arrests for victimless crimes because of the high salience of the issue. State attempts to enhance the ability of same-sex partners to make voluntary contracts that affect life or death decisions unequivocally enhance individual liberty. (One could argue that states should get the government out of marriage licensing altogether and offer streamlined "life-partnership contracts" to all sorts of families and households, not just heterosexual and homosexual two-partner relationships.)

K.

So one single sexuality discrimination makes up part of 2.1% of the measure. The rest are 0%. That is still much less than the tobacco stuff.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 1:13:13 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Try and disprove it with facts and not opinion. Just a short amount of time researching it shows many news stories and statistics that support what K has stated.

So if this same percentage of people were of a different ethnicity would you view it differently? NM I have seen some of your past posts, but the denial of the problem is interesting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Kirata
Personally, I think you need to get out more. They managed to get the attention of GenocideWatch. At one point the situation had reached Stage 6. It has now been downgraded to Stage 5, no thanks to Jacob Zuma, who, by the way, is the fellow your post refers to as "the brutal looking black." At least you got that right.

Acting Judge of the South Gauteng High Court, Leon Halgryn declared that the song is hate speech, and it is unconstitutional to either utter or sing “dubul’ibhunu” (“shoot the Boer.”) He issued an injunction against Malema, ordering him to no longer sing the song. The phrase is now considered hate speech. Julius Malema was shortly thereafter removed as President of the ANC Youth League, and ejected from the ANC. However, Malema’s followers have defied the judgment and continue to sing the song... President Jacob Zuma sang “Shoot the Boer” at the ANC Centenary Celebration event in January of 2012.


Genocide??? It seems that reactionary Boer elements are trying, for propaganda purposes, to elevate a campaign by militants to reclaim white-owned farms into a campaign of genocide against whites. While the levels of violence on the farms are deplorable, these crimes seem to be politically and economically motivated rather than hate crimes as they are commonly understood.

So, it seems that the claim of genocide relies on a few old images and some politicians singing a rather ugly song. And precious little else. Puh-leeeaasseee! It takes more than a few tired images and few politicians singing a song before one can talk about genocide. And Genocide Watch is quite specific about it not being genocide, as this excerpt from their website shows:

"Genocide Watch continues to be alarmed at hate crimes committed against whites, particularly against Boer farmers, an important early warning sign that genocide could occur. Those who commit such crimes must be promptly brought to justice, and denounced by the political leaders of South Africa. Genocide Watch’s first six stages do not constitute genocide. Watch does not believe that genocide is currently underway in South Africa."
http://www.genocidewatch.org/southafrica.html (emphasis added)

So talk about a genocide against white South Africans turns out to be little more than hot air generated by ultra-Right Boers still fighting the Cold War against "Marxism-Leninism" and hankering for a return to the good old days of apartheid.

You really should know better.



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 5:06:50 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Seems I need to read the whole thing for you ?

The point is, if you're going to make claims without citing the criteria on which they're based, all you're doing is engaging in a bit of drive-by preaching. Seems I need to explain that to you. Got it now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Freer environment is code for...

Statist mentality is code for...

Oh I see, it's "code". Um. And you've managed to get your hands on one of their secret de-coder rings. Wonderful. Did you find it in your cereal?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/31/2013 5:27:55 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 8:15:10 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

"Right to Work" states don't mean those states are more "free".That just mean employers have more freedom to fire someone for any number of bogus reasons,unrelated to the job task at hand.I do agree though,that Unions should not be allowed to "force" someone into their Union.If someone does not want to join a union,that shouldn't be reason to fire someone.



I agree

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

says who?

why isnt the above entrapment?




< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2013 8:16:40 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 8:21:05 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

well if its still open for discussion later I will get back to this later, its party tyme, I was not aware so little was understood about law around here and you made several in appropriate conclusions


Whilst we may not agree, that hardly makes it 'inappropriate' for either side of the discussion.



You need first to identify if you are talking lay or legal as I said. I see people mixing it up all the time and it really sounds wierd to somone who knows the difference.

Inappropriate refers to several conclusions that you drew with regard to legal matters that would virtually require a thread by itself to explain to anyone who is not somewhat on that page already.

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 3/31/2013 8:22:04 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to freedomdwarf1)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 8:48:56 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
in its most fundamental form you have the right to do ANYTHING that does not injure another.

Go ahead and see if you can find reasonable fault with that.


Ok.....

If I am attacked, I have the RIGHT to defend myself and detain the aggressor and if that means they get hurt or injured in the process then I am still within my rights.




WOOSH!



Remember the saying that the exception "proves the rule".

Presuming the attacker was not in fear of his own life from you, his attack is a trespass upon your person. you definitely have the right to stop the attack with appropriate and adequate force, injuring him in an attempt to detain him which goes beyond suppressing the attack is another story.

None of which changes the fundamental rule as I stated.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 12:56:02 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		This study doesn't include local counties and towns who might have their own laws.For example,I live in Pinellas County,Florida.Now where I live,Domestic Partnership is legal here but it is only effective in Pinellas County.There are a few other cities and counties that have Domestic Partnership as well.Of course,theres no statewide Domestic Partnership program but there are some cities and counties within Florida where Domestic Partnership is perfectly legal,

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(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 3:27:19 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		I suppose if you just feel the need to trumpet every uance of your life to the government that would be a great way to go


What About Legal Rights and Responsibilities?

Domestic partnership registration is voluntary, and does not create any new or different legal rights or responsibilities. The City of Boulder is not able to provide you with any legal advice concerning your partnership, and you may wish to consult an attorney for such advice. A domestic partnership does not create a "common law marriage" and may be evidence that no common law marriage has occurred. It does not create a joint venture or partnership or create any other legal rights between the partners or relating to any third partner. However, it may be used as evidence that an intimate relationship existed between the parties.



whats the point? nothing that a contract between 2 consenting adults would not take care of.

so why have a 3rd party in your relationship? And why even mention that its "legal" when it serves no purpose for you other than to give government a periscope up your butt?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 3:43:54 PM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		Its a big deal because the Domestic Partnership is open to both straight and gay couples.Since Gay marriage is still illegal here in Florida,this is the next best thing.It does give extra rights such as visiting a loved one in the hospital,help make plans for funerals,etc.Its not marriage but it does afford some of the same rights as a marriage.As for seeing a lawyer,perhaps seeing a lawyer could provide the same results.Except seeing a lawyer can cost a lot of money,while a Domestic Partnership can cost a couple $25-$50.Big difference on the price.Not everything that is "government" is bad.

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 3/31/2013 3:47:45 PM >

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https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 3:48:44 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

~FR~

I guess it depends on what you consider as a "freedom" on a personal level.

If your perception of any one 'freedom' is different to that of the study, it renders the results meaningless.


ETA-
Here's an example of where a single item can be viewed as an infringement of 'freedom' to one person but and actual real freedom to another....
Let's take a highly controversial and emotional subject like gun control.
If one person wants the freedom to walk around the streets with a gun, then gun control would be considered an infringement of their liberty to do so.
However, if another person wants the freedom to walk the streets without the fear of someone pulling a gun on them, then gun control would be welcomed and would not be considered as an infringement.

And that's just one subject amongst many thousands.
So.... how can this so-called map of 'freedom' be anything but purely subjective??



Just my

Freedom flows from restrictions, how Owellian

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 3/31/2013 8:15:37 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Seems I need to read the whole thing for you ?

The point is, if you're going to make claims without citing the criteria on which they're based, all you're doing is engaging in a bit of drive-by preaching. Seems I need to explain that to you. Got it now?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

Freer environment is code for...

Statist mentality is code for...

Oh I see, it's "code". Um. And you've managed to get your hands on one of their secret de-coder rings. Wonderful. Did you find it in your cereal?

K.

It's rather obvious for anyone willing to use their obvious reasoning powers and assess their goals in assessing so-called economic freedoms.

Over half the study as others have tried to also inform, conclusion by inference.

I infer that they are rent-seekers and judge states freedom by how little I have to pay people, how few environmental laws there are and what my taxes will be.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 4/1/2013 12:26:20 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Try and disprove it with facts and not opinion. Just a short amount of time researching it shows many news stories and statistics that support what K has stated.


You might like to list these "facts" and/or links for us. After I googled "Genocide Watch South Africa", the results were pretty much the same few items repeated endlessly on all the sites I checked. The only verifiable reference that appeared on all sites, including distasteful openly racist ones, was mention of this court ruling over the disputed song. Some of the sites claimed the fact that some ANC luminaries sang this song in public on one or two occasions demonstrated official collusion/approval for the alleged 'genocide'. Make of that what you will.

A figure of c3,000 murders of farmers since 1994 appeared a few times. I didn't see any source for this figure. As I said in my post, the motive for these awful murders could be political, economic, racial or even personal. Those alleging genocide appear to assume that every single one of these murders are racial hate crimes. Even granting that ( a long long stretch in itself) it averages out at just over a dozen murders a month in one of the most violent countries in the world. Hardly the stuff of genocide.

While these scant facts are no reason for joy, it is absurd to try to spin them into genocide.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/1/2013 12:41:57 AM >

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RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 4/3/2013 6:44:02 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Its a big deal because the Domestic Partnership is open to both straight and gay couples.Since Gay marriage is still illegal here in Florida,this is the next best thing.It does give extra rights such as visiting a loved one in the hospital,help make plans for funerals,etc.Its not marriage but it does afford some of the same rights as a marriage.As for seeing a lawyer,perhaps seeing a lawyer could provide the same results.Except seeing a lawyer can cost a lot of money,while a Domestic Partnership can cost a couple $25-$50.Big difference on the price.Not everything that is "government" is bad.



no its not a big deal because you can write up any kind of contract you want with another and the courts are required to enforce them under equity as long as they do not directly conflict with laws on the books.

The word marriage is their choice of words for their legal system. If you just demand using that word then you can fight till you are broke, otherwise you can make your personal contracts that are equally legally binding.

The real issue here for gays for instance is getting entitlements from the government, not marriage per se.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Charles6682)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Freedom in the 50 States - 4/3/2013 10:52:44 AM   
Charles6682


Posts: 1820
Joined: 10/1/2007
From: Saint Pete,FL
Status: offline 		There have been cases here in Florida where a gay lover was denied access to see their loved one in the hostpital.Thats where Domestic Partnership comes in.In Florida.Gay people have no rights to see someone they love in the hostpital,except for counties where Domestic Partnership is legal.Domestic Partnership can also be used for straight couples who may not want to get married.

_____________________________

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http://www.Facebook.com/SubGuy

https://Twitter.com/SubGuy6682

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 98
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