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Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 3:16:45 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		There have been discussions in the past where
clearly establishing things has come up. Things
like expected conduct, desired behaviour etc...

I think this is a great example of healthy
communication. Boundaries and structure for
some go hand in hand with consequences, even
if those translate into something as basic as:
"Respect and my wishes, or theres the door."

Regardless of the type or strictness of
relationship I'm sure at one time or another most
people have had to lay down the law.

For this thread, I'd be interested to read about
times when you remember clearly spelling out the
rules, it doesn't have to be limited to D/s. I am
mainly interested in this within the context of a
D/s relationship, but it could also be something
like setting a curfew for your kids.

What are some examples of how you have gone
about laying down the law.


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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 3:33:31 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		From my standpoint any situation where I have to get crass enough to "lay down the law" is already a failure on my part. As far as I'm concerned I have no real interest in trying to make Carol do shit or conform to my laws. I just know how I want to live my life. She can live it with me or not. She may do so as my equal wife or my not-so-equal slave. But I define the rules for any role that interacts with me and the consequence is "you don't get to be in that role".

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 3:39:37 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline 		Laying down the law is no simple task, and is a continuous process within a relationship IMO... Especially when in a relationship with someone with the mind of a lawyer, or actually is one. My little one, and a couple of men I've dated, have been like this.

You (generic you) have to speak to the person, until you feel you are clearly understood. There has to be good faith between you two, so that when an error or a shortcoming does occur, you can discuss it openly, without the suspicion that the person is being antagonistic for smartass/resentful reasons.

I have no misconception that I'm going to someday, remember to tell my other in a relationship, EVERYTHING he would need to know, in order not to disobey, or disapoint my expectation of proper, respectful behavior, that shows deference to me. What I do hope to have, is trust, that when miscommunication happens, and I ask why, or wonder why, I don't come up with "muthah phucker was just being fowl for its own sake." M

P.S. I didn't write my rules like: Don't whine, or this will get much more painful for you, or Always walk by my side, and never in front of me (unless it is to open my door), because those are simplistic, and frankly, not helpful to you IMO.

I will say however, that I hope your conversation regarding rules/expectations, never actually do come to the words "obey or leave." I always feel that is implied, and if you disobey after I've clearly communicated my need/want/expectation to you, than your choice is made, and go you must. Relationships are never as simple so as to summarize, begin or end with those few words, but the fact is, you (generic) enter into a relationship with this understanding. Changing it up mid whatever we are going through, wouldn't work for me. I'm always open to discussion, and flexible to life's circumstances, but if the time comes for a decision to be finite needs to be made, I do... Than cry, and take time to get over it, if I need to.


< Message edited by BlkTallFullfig -- 4/3/2013 3:51:27 PM >

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 4:20:44 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		This is one of my favorite stories of succesfully getting my children to obey.

At some point I noticed that when we went somewhere by car, my youngest almost always got the front seat (back in prehistoric times when there were no airbags, so kids could sit in front with just a lap belt, which is what the car came with). So I took my youngest son aside and said, 'It is important that everyone get a fair share of turn to sit in front. From now on, it is your job to make sure of this'. From then on out, all my kids sat in front equally, and my youngest diligently saw to that fact.

When telling this story recently t my soon to be DDIL, my son added facts I had not previously known: that the kids had devised their own game for deciding who got to sit up front and the youngest just happened to be best at it. If I had known that, I would not have interfered. So much for my 'I'm such an awesome parent' story. Oh, well, still impressed DDIL. She said if she ever did have kids (they are not planning to) she'd want to raise them like that.

My point being, that is my idea of how to enforce my will, such as it is (as a submissive woman, but, in my view, submissiveness does not have much to do with parenting. I have never been submissive to my kids, LOL).

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 6:21:40 PM   
Glittoris


Posts: 48
Joined: 2/24/2013
Status: offline 		Well, one of my rules for anyone interested in being in my life, is that I don't share anything about my other relationships with them. In that, I mean private stuff. My last relationship ended with the boy on Valentine's day, and since then he has not contacted me at all. Then 2 days ago I get an email, saying he's heard I've met someone new, and asked if this was so. I told him yes, it was. He then proceeded to ask me for personal photos of him, in various sexual poses. Well, that breaks my rules which he damn well knew. He's cut out for good, no chance of even remaining on friendly terms, he's out. His mistake cost him what he begged to keep, which was a friendship [not that there was anything like that in place, it wasn't a good thing between us for a while].

Another point is when I set out simple tasks in the beginning of a relationship ~ just things I ask, answers I want to hear, before anything else is negotiated. Small things that seem insignificant to the submissive person, but are important to me. I usually give anywhere from 2 days to a week to have them done and returned to me. If they are not done, we don't meet. I don't care if your hotel is already booked, if you can not or will not do the smallest, simplest things I've asked of you [and that are not stupidly out there in any way], you don't get the privilege of meeting me in person.

Anyways, my point is, if my instructions are not adhered to, there are consequences. If it means they don't get to meet me, remain in my [very very very close circle of friends], etc. Whatever it is, it will be something they want, love and enjoy immensely.

Hey, remember when parents actually took away your toys for misbehavior? Yup, same rules apply here ;)

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 7:27:23 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		If it comes down to an ultimatum, you've already lost. We aim for win/win situations.
Here it's continually talking things through, until both people understand where each person is coming from and why. And figure out how to make both happy.

If that's not possible, then you probably aren't very compatible.

Even with my son, when he was having a bad case of teenageritis, it came to options. First I told him that I would not allow him to manipulate me into hitting him which is what he wanted because that violated my boundaries. Then that he needed to deal with his anger and since I couldn't seem to help him he could choose between living with his father, going to prep school, or going to therapy. Those were his options and it was up to him to pick one. And if he didn't choose, I would.

But by the time you get to 'or else' the relationship is already seriously fucked beyond repair.

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 9:39:27 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
This is one of my favorite stories of succesfully getting my children to obey.
At some point I noticed that when we went somewhere by car, my youngest almost always got the front seat (back in prehistoric times when there were no airbags, so kids could sit in front with just a lap belt, which is what the car came with). So I took my youngest son aside and said, 'It is important that everyone get a fair share of turn to sit in front. From now on, it is your job to make sure of this'. From then on out, all my kids sat in front equally, and my youngest diligently saw to that fact.

My point being, that is my idea of how to enforce my will, such as it is (as a submissive woman, but, in my view, submissiveness does not have much to do with parenting. I have never been submissive to my kids, LOL).
That is exactly how the process goes, many times. You speak/teach them, they think it through, and figure out how to make it work individually, and you think yeah, success. For mine, it usually takes time (weeks-months) when we have a conversation regarding behavior modification. My Lil one carries on, runs into the situation, applies what we conversed about, than comes and tells me about it. I'm always so happy that it gets in there somehow, even if in altered form, lol. M

H


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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 11:11:20 PM   
MasterAutarch


Posts: 38
Joined: 3/6/2012
Status: offline 		I avoid ultimatums since that creates a win-lose situation and when either one loses then you both lost.

I do lay down rules. I discuss them with my sub and agrees to accept them. Sometimes she will ask for a modification or exceptions or I will suggest them for convenience. Example: I told her I wanted her to wear skirts/dresses with no underwear, a nice stereotypical D/s requirement. So she leaves her house in pants and then finds a place to park and change into a skirt/dress and dumps the underwear before heading out to meet me. Sometimes this is not possible or practical, say when we go hiking. In that case she may wear pants (but still no panties). I expect easy access to her tits, but when we do community service in public she can wear a sports bra. Heading home I may allow her to change into pants before we leave so that she does not have to stop along the way, particularly at night.

Someplace I read that the best leaders lead by telling the followers to do what the followers want to do or are already doing. :)

Well... sometimes I do have to push a little. She is not "collared" but does have a collar which she seems to have lost. I am going to give her an order to find it. If she does not find it I will put a heavy dog collar on her when in private, and tell her to find the original or buy a replacement but until she has it she will wear the dog collar. So this becomes a mini ultimatum with the consequences unpleasant for her but with wiggle room and still within acceptance range in the relationship.

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/3/2013 11:22:37 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		Protocol in my home is established up front.

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 12:09:21 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		The last time there was something like that between MP and I, it was from Me.

"Nothing else that poops!"

We live in Alaska and we have four cats. We've made major moves with the four cats before. When we moved to CA from GA, they rode in the vehicles with us. If you've ever driven three thousand miles with four cats, you understand exactly why people are willing to pay outrageous rates to buy plane tickets. (Not an option for our move.) It's not a happy experience for the animals and it's not much better for the humans.

Then, we moved from CA to Alaska. This was a two day road trip, followed by four days by ferry, followed by two days or road trip, and finally five days at temp housing until we were settled. The ferry is a terrible experience for the animals. They sleep in the car and can only be tended to for times when the ferry is docked. It's very frightening for them and is worse than being caged at the ASPCA. The parking deck has little to no heat. The cats are surrounded by cars with barking dogs in them. (Only service animals can be on "people" decks.)

Until we are out of here, we will *NOT* acquire any more pets.


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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 12:38:12 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL:  JeffBC

From my standpoint any situation where I have to get crass enough to "lay down the law" is already a failure on my part.  As far as I'm concerned I have no real interest in trying to make Carol do shit or conform to my laws.  I just know how I want to live my life.  She can live it with me or not.  She may do so as my equal wife or my not-so-equal slave.  But I define the rules for any role that interacts with me and the consequence is "you don't get to be in that role".


Jeff,
It's funny I made this thread with you in mind as 
one of the main relationships I wanted a bit more 
of an insight into, which is also why I worded it 
like I did. 

People seem to be leaning toward reading my 
question as talking about ultimatums, if thats the 
common definition of "lay down the law" that may 
make this thread confusing, I was using it to 
mean, clearly stating desired behaviours, 
expectations or boundaries. 
It's possible that could involve laying out
consequences.

Actually this link was something I was hoping for
you to expand on:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4400409

Glittoris,
quote:

Hey, remember when parents actually took away your toys for misbehavior? Yup, same rules apply here ;)

No, I was a horrible child and looking back, I had
the run of the house... My poor poor mum, I
couldn't have raised a kid like me thats for sure.

TNDommeK,
Thats more what I was getting at K! But I was
hoping to find out what are some of your
protocols, how did you address the topic.
If it's not something too private, what do you
specifically talk about when discussing those
protocols? 

For me at the beginning I basically say how much
openness and honesty matters to me and that I
wont tolerate lying, and a few more things but
that isn't a "protocol" talk, I try not to be too full
on all at once.

There are reasons why I do that but mainly
because I don't jump into a relationship like
diving into a pool, I carefully lower myself in like
an old man taking a bath, which was suppose to
be a funny way of saying, "I don't expect as
much at first as what I do later on."

I'm not one of those "Kneel beotch!" toting guys.

LadyPact,
That sounds like an exhausting move! Was it MP
that was responsible for accumulating the cats? I
haven't heard of a crazy cat man before.

Thanks for all the responses so far, especially
from the submissive side of things, I was thinking
another time where a sub would have to be firm
and clear about something is when a hard limit is
being pushed? I'm sure there'd be some stories
of when subs are establishing some boundaries
for the dom. 

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 4/4/2013 12:46:55 AM >

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 8:19:08 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Ah OK Aries... let me try to knit these two responses together.

As a general rule I like to plan well in advance, communicate well, build strong teams, and build my bonds of loyalty, love, & trust slowly and well ahead of time. So in any context, work or home, where I am leading someone I feel I've failed if it gets down to "laying down the law". To even be in that spot means I have failed to lay my groundwork well. That was the part about finding the need to "lay down the law" crass.

Now... despite the above the need still crops up from time to time... sometimes because I screwed up and sometimes just because situations have changed in some unanticipated way (for instance, collaring my wife). So now we get down to why it's critical that a dominant personality be able to control themselves. I cannot make Carol do anything. I could beat her until she's a bloody pulp and she could still look up at me and say "fuck you.". So I see such threats as ultimately empty. Who I CAN make do stuff is me. So my boundaries tend to be expressed in the form of:

Here's a few possible paths in the future and here's how I'll respond to each of them.

Given that I'm OK with all of my possible responses then I have automatically "gotten my way" in such a situation. I'm just waiting for the other person to tell me which specific way I've gotten. So with Carol, the big one between us is "If you knowingly disobey then I will consider you released". In such a circumstance here's the choices as I see them.

A) Play some sort of ongoing game with her about whether I am in charge or not (eg: punishment dynamic).
B) Let go of any expectation of obedience from her and treat her as my 50/50 wife.

Of the two of those, option (a) looks like a ridiculous game with no way to win and option (b) looks perfectly palatable. So I am making sure I get [one of my] ways by controlling my own reactions and responses. Her involvement in that is trivial and her influence near zero.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 8:20:02 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
People seem to be leaning toward reading my 
question as talking about ultimatums, if thats the 
common definition of "lay down the law" that may 
make this thread confusing, I was using it to 
mean, clearly stating desired behaviours, 
expectations or boundaries. 
It's possible that could involve laying out
consequences.


But these things need to be negotiated. The whole 'wear heels all the time' shit that so many guys want. In the shower? And there goes the working out requirement since you can't run on treadmills in heels.

If you have must haves in order for you to be in a relationship, then they need to be high on the other person's list also or it won't work. Same if your must haves are someone else's deal breakers. You could be best friends, wildly in love, but if you get off on closeting and caging and she's claustrophobic, it won't work.

You're talking about boundaries, hard limits, deal breakers and must haves. And the consequence to not being able to do them is that you can't maintain a relationship.


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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 8:25:53 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Um, off topic but at least connected to the subject......

quote:

LadyPact,
That sounds like an exhausting move! Was it MP
that was responsible for accumulating the cats? I
haven't heard of a crazy cat man before.

Not entirely. Only half of them. One he had before we were married. One was a 'rescue it or else' case, but technically his. One had been My daughter's growing up. The last was My daughter's after she had moved out but had been unable to keep.

Not sure if that will help to get the thread back on track. Just wanted to be polite and answer the question.


_____________________________

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Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 1:40:08 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterAutarch

I avoid ultimatums since that creates a win-lose situation and when either one loses then you both lost.

I do lay down rules.



You are talking out of both sides of your mouth direct opposite statements. I don't have a issue with telling someone to do it "my way".

If someone is not in charge than no one is.

BadOne



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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 1:52:52 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum
You are talking out of both sides of your mouth direct opposite statements. I don't have a issue with telling someone to do it "my way".

I gotta admit I don't really understand the purpose of "laying down rules" which are not enforced. When did "ultimatum" become a dirty word? Nor do I really understand how it is that I might lose from my own ultimatum. I mean seriously, I crafted the damned thing. You'd think I'd be happy with the results.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 2:32:07 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Jeff,
You've got an interesting way of looking at
things, especially when talking about possible
paths, though I don't see punishment and
rewards being on the table as a game. (and this
is where I like the idea if D/s being separate
from BDSM as well)

When I state things like the path I want the
relationship to be heading it's not so much a
ultimatum or a follow or not kind of deal, it's
more like, "I'm the captain, this is where we are
sailing to, if we drift off course I will be making
sure to keep pointing us back on track but despite
whatever things need to be addressed on the way,
we are on the path to that destination."

So the path thing for me is really having the
destination in mind, and trying to maintain a
steady pace of progress toward it, the punishment
and reward for me is one tool in the tool box that I
can use to make adjustments and I think they
serve an important and fundamental role in
fostering a good mindset, I'm talking about D/s
reward& punishment which I see as very different
from BDSM.

I could probably describe it as being patient &
assertive, but also not neglecting to address
positive or negative progress when appropriate,
and I've used that general thinking to help with
everything from deepthroat to cooking.

To be honest I'm having trouble understanding
some of your post, I think our minds work pretty
differently, but I'm determined to get my head
around it all.
I'll do some thinking on it.

Desfip,
Your looking at things in a very absolute way,
being unreasonable or unrealistic it's not really
how I roll but you seem to be getting that from
my question.

Do I come off like a guy that would want my
partner wearing high heels on a treadmill?
actually that might be interesting.
 
My response to Jeff may make the nature of
what I'm getting at a bit clearer for you.

I can see what your saying though, I'm not going
to play the blind optimist and say that any
relationship can be made to work no matter how
incompatible as long as you love each other and
want to be together, sometimes loves just not
enough.

So yea, I'm not really wondering about how it
can't work but about how different people make
things work, more specifically,  in a D/s
relationship.
If you negotiate everything thats fine. 

I'm a decision maker, the harder the decision the
more I shine, it's elemental to who I am and it's
the source of a lot of my self worth. Being a dom
for me is also tied in with me making decisions
but for two people rather than one, so for me, I
don't negotiate so much as take everything into
account and try to make the smartest decisions
for everyone.

LadyPact,
Sounds like your all just as bad as each other!
Haha.
 

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 4/4/2013 2:33:30 PM >

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 2:36:46 PM   
ClassAct2006


Posts: 318
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		I have had D/s relationships where we talk a lot so not really "laying down the law" type of relationships.
With my children we live in love and they follow my example so laying down the law suggests the complete antithesis of who we are. I learn as much from them as they from me and I am privileged to live among them.

I suspect if any man were a kind of laying down the law for the sake of it type of chap he would not be for me even though I am very submissive in relationships.

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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 3:03:23 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		fr

He said, "I'm going to Europe with or without you." I knew from almost day one that he had always wanted to spend a few years working in Europe so that wasn't a surprise but I didn't think he would or could actually make it happen. I should have known better.. he's pretty good at getting exactly what he wants. Basically, he communicated to me what he was going to do.. I had only to follow him or not.. so, no ultimatum from my perspective. I could have stayed in the States and waited for the two years for his return but.. that would have sucked.

We are very much 'his way or the highway' and I have no problem at all with it especially since that's exactly what I signed on for in the first place. I obeyed Himself from the get go. I agreed to obey when he first collared me and I agreed again when I took my wedding vow with him.


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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Laying down the law! - 4/4/2013 3:31:31 PM   
TNDommeK


Posts: 7153
Joined: 3/13/2010
Status: offline 		I make sure they know what to expect. I explain how things work here. I'm very detailed as to how this house works. I mean I get down to the nitty gritty! Lol. I explain things from how she should act, what I require, what I forbid, etc. even down to domestic things, I make sure everything is understood.
My protocols are a lot like his. We are a relaxed house, but there are something's we do not tolerate. Other things we might be flexible on.

I hope this helps.

_____________________________

Goddess of Duck Lips and Luxurious Hair
The working Fin Domme
Professional con artist, swindler, trixster, extortionist

Our snark-nado needs more cowbell


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