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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 8:41:36 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:


I support having a public school system because I believe it is a necessity. The Feds shouldn't be paying the local teachers, should they?


Why are the 'republicans' against this after they were for it?  Public education was founding republican ideology, and made real by such as Seward, Greeley, and Mann.

And land-grant colleges too.  Seems they are always dealing with their unintended consequences.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 8:43:51 AM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:



As with anything valuable in life, there should be a price to be paid....otherwise, it's not deemed valuable.


Absolute moronic drivel...you do not pay a penny for the air you breath and yet you cherrish it?



Not well phrased, but people who are materially involved make better use of their education. Anecdotally, I remember the kids in college who had to work to help pay for college partied less, were more concerned with their grades and were more motivated to graduate early. Even pop culture looks at universities and their students as a bit entitled and party hardy. For every movie about the hard working pulled themselves up from the boot staps movie there are several about smoking weed, drinking partying and anything but academic achievement.

It is not unreasonable to say a student should have some skin in the game.

quote:


quote:

It should be (with an associated social/civil cost....2 years in some kind of military/Peace Corp, etc. for every 4 of college).


Why???Does not the state and society benifit from an educated society? Why is it thatyou want more why the greed????


It absolutely benefits. We need a better educated society! However, this is not a new concept in the west. For example, Germany requires compulsory service, either military or community. When as was doing a study abroad there, all my german peers were older because they performed that service for two years before going to university. It was a really good system. they were older and more mature and more dedicated to their education than us crazy Americans.

It is hardly greedy, it is your civil thank you for providing all of that wonderful free education. Makes you appreciate what you get and helps out society. Many of those who did community service were the ones caring for the disabled. One girl in our dorm was a paraplegic. Every day two people came twice and helped her shower and get ready for the day then came back and helped her bed down. This was free to her and low cost to the state because of the service.....How much more does that benefit society???

quote:


quote:

I think tuition and books should be covered by the state/guv (fellow Republicans, don't sue me.....anyone below 50, you got lucky, ours was the last generation that could make a decent living with just a high school diploma)...but normal shit like food, housing, etc....buck up...participate in your own education.
Any kid today that doesn't start out with a 4 year degree....I haven't a clue how they can make a decent living.


One does not need a high school diploma to be a car mechanic and a good car mechanic in an agency garrage can make 200k a year with no sweat.


Yet more and more you need greater certifications and training to work on modern machinery. There has been the rising need for trade schools. Many western nations not only include university education but the trades as well. LNN is wrong in assuming that you can't make it without a 4 year degree. While you are technically correct, what you refering to is rare, hardly no sweat, and the chances of success are greatly bolstered if those individuals go to a trade school.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 8:47:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
quote:


I support having a public school system because I believe it is a necessity. The Feds shouldn't be paying the local teachers, should they?

Why are the 'republicans' against this after they were for it?  Public education was founding republican ideology, and made real by such as Seward, Greeley, and Mann.
And land-grant colleges too.  Seems they are always dealing with their unintended consequences.


Not sure if this question is being posed to me, and if it is, I'm not sure why.


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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 9:18:09 AM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		I think that every person who insists that with the right "system" and "good enough teachers" every child will be successful educated....should devote at least a year of time in a public school classroom. Wonder if that would convince them that the whole "if you build it, they will pass" crap mindset would change.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 12:52:57 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I think that every person who insists that with the right "system" and "good enough teachers" every child will be successful educated....should devote at least a year of time in a public school classroom. Wonder if that would convince them that the whole "if you build it, they will pass" crap mindset would change.


Never happen. It'll will be that you didn't spend enough, or the classrooms lacked Product X or something like that. All the while, that has less to do with it than the lack of educational support in their home environments.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to cordeliasub)
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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 3:30:00 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

As with anything valuable in life, there should be a price to be paid....otherwise, it's not deemed valuable.


As with any of these questions, its about who pays. We all pay, one way or another. The numbers demonstrate that there are some functions more economically obtained by the private sector, others by the public sector.

A nation demonstrates its value to the society that they govern by choosing the most cost efficient route. All the valid numbers indicate that the health care and educational systems administered and/or paid for by the government are significantly more cost effective.


quote:

For example, Germany requires compulsory service, either military or community. When as was doing a study abroad there, all my german peers were older because they performed that service for two years before going to university. It was a really good system. they were older and more mature and more dedicated to their education than us crazy Americans.

It is hardly greedy, it is your civil thank you for providing all of that wonderful free education. Makes you appreciate what you get and helps out society. Many of those who did community service were the ones caring for the disabled. One girl in our dorm was a paraplegic. Every day two people came twice and helped her shower and get ready for the day then came back and helped her bed down. This was free to her and low cost to the state because of the service.....How much more does that benefit society???


Yet in all that experience, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that Germany pays for the largest part of the education of their citizens. In this oversight, you point out that you wish for government to stay out of the question of what is important to society or not, rather leaving the fate of society up to myriad and ever changing 'opinions' of individuals, whose sails are tilted on a daily basis by the wacko media.

Your notion of having "skin in the game" plays directly to the idea in this country that those having the largest amount of funds have the greatest say-so in matters. Dollar democracy. And our congress, our administrations, and our supreme court agree with you wholeheartedly there. I don't have enough money to disagree with them in any meaningful fashion, but at least I have a completely meaningless vote, no?

As for the public service aspect, I'm on board there, for the most part. But keep in mind: the European countries, most of whom mandate such commitment, do not require actual battlefield engagement, whereas when volunteering in the US armed forces, such choice is not an option.

In any event, this discussion would be remiss in not pointing out the scam of the prevalence of loan sharking that all the universities that I am familiar with actively promote.


A house has great value to people, jobs have great value to people. Yet, the US (via the congress and administration of both parties) let it be known in most demonstrative fashion that, at bottom, servicing the bond holders and "big five" accountant firms, the investment banks, the sham credit default swap holders, etc. is their idea of what "benefits society." Sorry about the 4.5 million lost houses, the 8.5 million lost jobs, the thousands of shuttered schools, etc.

Priorities here, folks.

I like the continental European notion of benefit to society better, and not just because of the cost/benefit analysis, which of itself proves their better approach to the matter.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/5/2013 4:04:21 PM >

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 3:42:32 PM   
FunCouple5280


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn







Yet in all that experience, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that Germany pays for the largest part of the education of their citizens. In this oversight, you point out that you wish for government to stay out of the question of what is important to society or not, rather leaving the fate of society up to myriad and ever changing 'opinions' of individuals, whose sails are tilted on a daily basis by the wacko media.

I did no such thing. I limited it to high ed and thats it. The US already educates k-12. And to the second bullshit. You excluded my statement:
quote:

It absolutely benefits. We need a better educated society!
Don't create much ado about nothing.

quote:


As for the public service aspect, I'm on board there, for the most part. But keep in mind: the European countries, most of whom mandate such commitment, do not require actual battlefield engagement, whereas when volunteering in the US armed forces, such choice is not an option.
Drafted or compulsory service in the US has the option of conscientious objector. So BS to that.....I also said there would be a Community service option, therefore if you don't like it don't go into the military. So in essence no one would be forced to fight.....




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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 3:52:09 PM   
Darkfeather


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Status: offline 		Where is the money going to come from you ask? US budget for the 2013 fiscal year, Department of Education 71.9 billion. Department of Defense 672.9 billion. One stealth bomber could pay for 20 people's college education gratis. One aircraft carrier, the whole state of Nebraska. The money we have pumped into Iraq so far could have ended hunger in the US to date. It is all about priorities, else we would not be spending about a 10th of the defense budget on education

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 3:54:24 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		not 20 peoples ed, but 20,000 assuming they don't all go Yale

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 4:25:22 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn







Yet in all that experience, you seemed to have overlooked the fact that Germany pays for the largest part of the education of their citizens. In this oversight, you point out that you wish for government to stay out of the question of what is important to society or not, rather leaving the fate of society up to myriad and ever changing 'opinions' of individuals, whose sails are tilted on a daily basis by the wacko media.


I did no such thing. I limited it to high ed and thats it.




Yes you did, by your requirement that every higher-ed student have "skin in the game."

Where does this leave the intellectually gifted but funds-deprived student? There are particular programs in the US that cover some of this shortfall, but not nearly enough, and it's highly cost-ineffective the ungainly and inordinately cumbersome, from an administrative standpoint, process to do what the Europeans just do from the get-go.

If providing for pre-K through 12 makes any sense at all, then why not further for those whom it befits? Are you saying that we value HS grads more than college grads?

I don't care about the ideology behind whatever approach, at least not much. The European method, with all its faults, provides the better aggregate result, in a great variety of measures.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/5/2013 4:27:55 PM >

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 4:56:13 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		That skin the game is the compulsory service. Why would you charge money for something you owe.....you are selectively reading and worse selectively understanding. I offered the notion of service as the skin in the game in lieu of a financial one.

Regardless of the method you can bet the US will be cost ineffective, just as they currently are in lower ed. We are too corrupt and any comparison of spending with Europe is moot. I am willing to make that cost bet to improve things but I am unwilling to accept that it will cost us less.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 4:56:33 PM   
MrRodgers


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Status: offline 		The state has a responsibility for K-12. In the end one may even direct govt. to legally insist.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 5:17:41 PM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

The state has a responsibility for K-12. In the end one may even direct govt. to legally insist.


I beg to differ. The state bears no responsibility for any education. We actually shame our government into paying that paltry bit, as I pointed out before with a measly 71.9 billion budgeted for education. Give you an idea of how education stands up, Department of Agriculture 154.5 billion (all those corn subsidies at work), Small Business Administration 1.4 billion (this is sooo pathetically sad), National Aeronautics and Space Administration 17.8 billion (another sad amount). Cutting our defense budget in half, and fixing all the crap that actually is wrong right now would actually go towards improving the infrastructure of this country. Roads, healthcare, energy (anyone remember that football game that actually blew the electrical grid??), technology.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 8:56:38 PM   
Edwynn


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Mr. Rogers and Darkfeather;

I'm not sure what exactly either of your points are, but Mississippi was the last state (what a surprise!) to enact a compulsory education law, that occurring in 1917.

Education is most certainly state mandated (therefore state responsibility), even if not by the national government.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/5/2013 9:23:43 PM >

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 9:57:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Status: offline 		I do not believe that education is a right. It does not fall within what I view as rights. I view it as a duty of society. Rights to me are something that are contained within me, without reliance upon someone else to do something to complete it.

I believe education is one of the most important duties a society has to the people. Education prevents and solves so many issues, that the money and time investment is a win-win, as long as it pushes students on an individual basis, and has a tier learning system within each grade.

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/5/2013 10:14:51 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		In general,IMHO...information,knowledge,what`s true and what`s going on, are everyone`s right to know.


I don`t see public education as a right as much as an absolute necessity, if we are going to be competitive in the global economy.

I could give a rat`s ass about those who seek to make government smaller or the whinnies who whine about paying their school taxes.

If we`re going to have economic security ei. national security,we must do whatever we need to do to make our workforce as smart and successful as possible.

We also need to lose the creationists,climate change denialists and other anti-science,anti-intellectual from the education system.








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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/6/2013 1:54:19 AM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Mr. Rogers and Darkfeather;

I'm not sure what exactly either of your points are, but Mississippi was the last state (what a surprise!) to enact a compulsory education law, that occurring in 1917.

Education is most certainly state mandated (therefore state responsibility), even if not by the national government.




You should probably read all my posts then

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/6/2013 3:45:32 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darkfeather
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
The state has a responsibility for K-12. In the end one may even direct govt. to legally insist.

I beg to differ. The state bears no responsibility for any education. We actually shame our government into paying that paltry bit, as I pointed out before with a measly 71.9 billion budgeted for education. Give you an idea of how education stands up, Department of Agriculture 154.5 billion (all those corn subsidies at work), Small Business Administration 1.4 billion (this is sooo pathetically sad), National Aeronautics and Space Administration 17.8 billion (another sad amount). Cutting our defense budget in half, and fixing all the crap that actually is wrong right now would actually go towards improving the infrastructure of this country. Roads, healthcare, energy (anyone remember that football game that actually blew the electrical grid??), technology.


You are comparing the Federal spending level of a program that is primarily funded at a State/Local level to the Federal spending of a Constitutionally authorized Federal program. And you are shocked that there is a massive difference?

Ohio Education Budget

For 2014, State of Ohio funding for education is $10.5B, increasing to $10.8B for 2015 (<25% of that funding is coming the Federal Government). Additionally, 58.4% of my real estate taxes goes to my local school district. Schools are funded primarily at the local and State levels.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/6/2013 7:21:19 AM   
MstSebastian


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Status: offline 		The philosophical problem I have with the "right to education" is the same problem I have to the "right to medical care" argument. It is entirely focused on the student/patient/consumer. But, what of the provider? When one argues that there is a right to a service (which is what is being argued here), they are arguing that people have the right to be the recipient of the time, energy, expertise, and skills of trained professionals (which is what teachers and doctors are). So, if one DOES have a right to those skills, does that mean that the holder of those skills has no right to set their own terms by which they will provide service? Do doctors no longer have the right to set their own prices? Do teachers no longer have the right to determine how, and where, they wish to teach?

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RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? - 4/6/2013 7:21:28 AM   
Darkfeather


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

You are comparing the Federal spending level of a program that is primarily funded at a State/Local level to the Federal spending of a Constitutionally authorized Federal program. And you are shocked that there is a massive difference?

Ohio Education Budget

For 2014, State of Ohio funding for education is $10.5B, increasing to $10.8B for 2015 (<25% of that funding is coming the Federal Government). Additionally, 58.4% of my real estate taxes goes to my local school district. Schools are funded primarily at the local and State levels.


And my point, is that it should be funded at the federal level, not pushed off at the state. Why, because there is a crap-ton more cash being flung around at stupid stuff instead of education, infrastructure, real basic nuts and bolts foundation things. Most every other country in the world is slowly getting their crap together, cleaning up their people, getting them educated, and entering the world stage. 10 years ago, we would have laughed our asses off if someone had said the Koreans could not only build a nuclear bomb, but test detonate it. But here they are, and the joke is on us. No longer the country that made the Daewoo, they can now join the ranks of superpowers. And yet we still can't agree on trivial matters like health care or education. Face it, while we sit back and try to veto Obama's healtcare bill for the 40th time, yet another country will rise from the ashes of our joke-pile and surpass us

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