RE: Is there a "Right to Education"?

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cordeliasub -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 2:00:41 PM)
I have to say....I wish someone would obligate me to teach. There are no jobs down here in the tiny county, and as much as I am thankful for the job I have....I'd give anything to get back into the classroom. I am not sure about college education being a right or duty though. There are some kids for whom a four year college degree is just not a good fit. One of my best friend from high school tried college struggled, dropped out....she went back to cosmetology school and she and another woman run a successful salon...making more money than I ever will. One of my relatives couldn't do traditional college, but he has got more common sense and fix-it sense than anyone I have ever seen and pulls in money for his family hand over fist. And sadly, with the hyper-focus on success at all costs and retention at all costs, what we have really done is watered things down to the point that I'm not sure a diploma has meaning anymore. The only way we could ensure that every single kid - regardless of IQ or work ethic or home environment - could succeed was to make it so laughably easy that no one could fail....and people STILL do. Of course, we have raised a generation of now new adults who grew up in the "everybody gets a trophy for showing up" world....and I'm not sure we have done ourselves any favors.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 3:48:08 PM)
As usual, muhly2222 has the sense of it. Memphis city schools is one of the worst performing in the nation, the superintendent got $275K a year plus bodyguards, limos, a driver and perks... and 6 figure jobs for his cronies from Miami-Dade, plus the trickle down of vice principals, deans, etc. This doesn't even begin to figure in sweet heart deals with corrupt contractors, etc. Disregarding standardized tests, the results are a disaster... Memphis is a major distribution hub, and the warehouses have to spend a bunch of money teaching employees how to read and write well enough to pick and pack boxes. Now here's the rub... several initiatives have been put in place to 'save' the schools in Memphis... slashing the number of teachers, closing many schools, hiring 'teaching buddies' from among students at the local community college for $10 an hour, sending kids home all day with computers to have their homework graded by call centers, and so on... resulting in a huge savings, right? Nope, resulting in the top heavy administration keeping their grossly inflated compensation, and no reduction whatsoever in the amount of taxes being levied. (And that isn't even going into the current debacle where the 'merger' of city and county schools seems likely to result in paying for 23 superintendents and 2 sets of redundant administrators). So any 'right to education' discussion has to start from the standpoint that the huge trough of money that passes for public education in America today (and the herd of piggies jostling each other to get it) is probably not what the Framers had in mind by the 'general welfare'. quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280 Take it from my wife the former school counselor turned private counselor. The money for ed doesn't really go to the class room. What DS has wrong is that it really isn't being consumed by counselors and lunch ladies. Counselors are necessary to deal with behavior issues in school. Lunch is often only completely free to the poor kids and the rest pay (depending on the district). While those may be costly they aren't that costly. The really bugger is the blob aka the school administration. Schools are so bloated and top heavy it is nuts. These directors have staffs and earn 6 figure salaries while the teacher shop at thrift stores. In my wife's middle school of 1200kids she was one of 2 counselors for all those kids. Yet there were a principle, two vice principles, a dean, a secretary for each, plus 6 other members of office staff. That's 14 pieces of administrative dead weight. Pretty shitty considering there were only 40 teachers. I went to a private high school of 900 students. 42 teachers and only 7 pieces of administrative staff........ I would be happy to give teachers a raise, many deserve it but when you give the schools more money they often blow it on admin. The reason she got out in 2010 was because with all the budget cut backs they were looking to cut staff. She volunteered to save the job of a friend as she had just gotten her private practice license anyways. The school cut her job and 3 teacher as well as made 4 teachers go part time.....And they fired none of the office staff........... Still multiple vice principles with their own secretaries etc. Less teachers, poorer and more pissed off teachers, that is no way run a school. That of course includes non of the district overhead etc While the free/reduced meals and behavioral necessities (both are quality programs) may not be all that costly, they still tend to cost some schools more and other schools less, based on socioeconomic geography. Toledo Public has a free breakfast program for any student that wants it, regardless of income. The only requirement is that you have to be a TPS student. This is one of those programs where being a responsible parent and making sure the home environment is supportive of educational achievement would negate the necessity for it. A bloated bureaucracy? At a "government" school? Nooooooo! Say it ain't so!! [8\|] That is probably true at damn near every school district. You might be surprised at how much the other shit adds up, though.

vincentML -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 3:55:58 PM)
quote: So any 'right to education' discussion has to start from the standpoint that the huge trough of money that passes for public education in America today (and the herd of piggies jostling each other to get it) is probably not what the Framers had in mind by the 'general welfare'. The rights of children and the corruption of adults are two different issues. Conflating them as you do just mucks up the question posed in the OP.

cordeliasub -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 4:00:38 PM)
quote: Memphis city schools is one of the worst performing in the nation, the superintendent got $275K a year plus bodyguards, limos, a driver and perks... and 6 figure jobs for his cronies from Miami-Dade, plus the trickle down of vice principals, deans, etc. This doesn't even begin to figure in sweet heart deals with corrupt contractors, etc. I am not anti-administration, but I have to say this IS a problem in lots of school systems. One system in which I taught had Assistant superintendents of everything under the sun...the central office was full of people with overlapping jobs. I never resented my salary - it was a good one.....but I cannot think of any reason that an administrator has to make 5 times what a teacher makes. And when the school system has less than a dozen schools total, you don't need 5 assistant superintendents, etc.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 5:17:32 PM)
I didn't conflate them, reality did. 'The right to an education' is simply a slogan. The educational system is a mess. But then again, someone would have to want to actually fix the problems in order to start with step one... admitting they exist. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: So any 'right to education' discussion has to start from the standpoint that the huge trough of money that passes for public education in America today (and the herd of piggies jostling each other to get it) is probably not what the Framers had in mind by the 'general welfare'. The rights of children and the corruption of adults are two different issues. Conflating them as you do just mucks up the question posed in the OP.

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 5:22:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 So any 'right to education' discussion has to start from the standpoint that the huge trough of money that passes for public education in America today (and the herd of piggies jostling each other to get it) is probably not what the Framers had in mind by the 'general welfare'. No it doesn't. It has to start from the standpoint that the US is taking after France in ignoring that the rest of the world exists and remains obstinately oblivious to that unavoidable fact. But I don't think that even France pays its school administrators that much money. As with healthcare, the Eurofolks prove to obtain better outcomes in education at all levels, at less cost. Even France.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 5:32:54 PM)
Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 So any 'right to education' discussion has to start from the standpoint that the huge trough of money that passes for public education in America today (and the herd of piggies jostling each other to get it) is probably not what the Framers had in mind by the 'general welfare'. No it doesn't. It has to start from the standpoint that the US is taking after France in ignoring that the rest of the world exists and remains obstinately oblivious to that unavoidable fact. But I don't think that even France pays its school administrators that much money. As with healthcare, the Eurofolks prove to obtain better outcomes in education at all levels, at less cost. Even France.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 6:04:56 PM)
Anyway, back to the OP... the definitional issues about access, and funding etc. have been brought up by others. Once upon a time, education was pretty much a privilege... for those who had the good luck to be born into certain social strata, or taken into the fold by same. As societies allegedly progressed, the resources allotted to providing an education were 'trickled down'. So 'is there a right to an education?' is inextricably tied into 'is there a right to upward mobility?'. I happen to think so, but I remain unconvinced that many facets of modern public education are the best way to go about it.

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/7/2013 10:44:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] At my relatively late age, I'm in with the uni experience in the US, and here's the news: Those 10% of international students in the class ( I won't dispute your numbers, that's a decent and realistic estimate) are none from Europe. Except for this noticeable small crowd from Italy, don't ask me to explain that, other than that 5-6 of them were in my German classes too, skating by on their already proficient Deutschsprache obtained in their early and excellent primary education. How many US students could have any chance of success in any European or Asian country in classes taught in the home language there? Yeah, likely, eh? In 'everyday' classes at decently rated universities, how many are there from France or Germany or Britain or from Spain, or even from Poland or Hungary? Not many, certainly none in my experience, other than one French girl a long time ago in one of my accounting classes. FAR less than 10%, safe to say, the Italians aforementioned as exception. None, NONE from Japan, though every other country in Asia seems to be well represented, by both students and teachers. Every 'more developed country,' as the OECD so indelicately puts it, struggles to hold back the flood of students from the 'developing countries," Europe as much or more so than the US. That's the facts.

tweakabelle -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 12:58:57 AM)
There seems to me to be a strong case for asserting that education is every child's right. When it comes to tertiary level education, it is a different matter. Tertiary education is not suitable for many students, and many don't possess the requisite talents for University level courses. It is difficult to see this situation in terms of rights. However other factors come into play. Society has a vested interest in ensuring that the more gifted students obtain tertiary level education. This is where the decision makers and innovators of the future will be found. For these reasons it is essential that entry into tertiary level education be on the basis of merit and merit alone. Society cannot afford to squander the talents of gifted students because their parents may not be able to afford the fees. There are many mechanisms available for ensuring that gifted students can access higher education. Here in Australia, there are grants, long-term loans at low interest rates and deferred fee payment schemes available for such students. There are other schemes in operation overseas designed to achieve the same end. Whether it's a right or not, it is imperative that gifted students obtain the higher education they need in order to maximise their potential and contribution to society. The social obligation is such that it's equivalent to saying that gifted students have a 'right' to higher education.

Edwynn -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 2:01:18 AM)
Or that a conscientious and aware society has a 'right' to "extract" the most to be obtained from those within by greatest utilization of the talents within that society. That's putting it in somewhat crude terms, granted, in response to the even more crude concept of lottery education in service to lottery capitalism.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 3:40:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle There seems to me to be a strong case for asserting that education is every child's right. When it comes to tertiary level education, it is a different matter. Tertiary education is not suitable for many students, and many don't possess the requisite talents for University level courses. It is difficult to see this situation in terms of rights. However other factors come into play. Society has a vested interest in ensuring that the more gifted students obtain tertiary level education. This is where the decision makers and innovators of the future will be found. For these reasons it is essential that entry into tertiary level education be on the basis of merit and merit alone. Society cannot afford to squander the talents of gifted students because their parents may not be able to afford the fees. There are many mechanisms available for ensuring that gifted students can access higher education. Here in Australia, there are grants, long-term loans at low interest rates and deferred fee payment schemes available for such students. There are other schemes in operation overseas designed to achieve the same end. Whether it's a right or not, it is imperative that gifted students obtain the higher education they need in order to maximise their potential and contribution to society. The social obligation is such that it's equivalent to saying that gifted students have a 'right' to higher education. If education is a human right, that is, a right tied to the being being a human (as opposed to a dog, cat, chupacabra, etc.), how is it that it has an age limit or attainment level cap? Is education's point to maximize society, or a tool for a person to use to improve him/herself? If it's the latter, by not supporting all people equally (regardless of whatever metric you use to determine "merit"), you are supporting the creation of separate classes of citizens. The person that didn't merit a post-secondary education has just been given a much more difficult path towards lifting hi/her lifestyle, while you've just made it "easier" for the kid that merit a higher education. What is the demographic of those who merit a higher education? Do they come more from the poor, impoverished, or "disadvantaged?" If not, then isn't this simply adding to that "disadvantage?" How is the issue of the home environment going to be solved?

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 4:57:42 AM)
I'm not sure where you are getting your facts from, Japan is 7th on the list of nations represented in US schools. It isn't unusual to see over a dozen countries represented at any given TOEFL session. Your original assertion stands unproven, and your bringing ethnicity into it seems beside the point. In spite of a useless primary system, the US universities offer something of value to the world. In many cases, I suspect it because the students would have been denied the right to an education back home because of social standing, or being fast tracked into the trades by the government. quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] At my relatively late age, I'm in with the uni experience in the US, and here's the news: Those 10% of international students in the class ( I won't dispute your numbers, that's a decent and realistic estimate) are none from Europe. Except for this noticeable small crowd from Italy, don't ask me to explain that, other than that 5-6 of them were in my German classes too, skating by on their already proficient Deutschsprache obtained in their early and excellent primary education. How many US students could have any chance of success in any European or Asian country in classes taught in the home language there? Yeah, likely, eh? In 'everyday' classes at decently rated universities, how many are there from France or Germany or Britain or from Spain, or even from Poland or Hungary? Not many, certainly none in my experience, other than one French girl a long time ago in one of my accounting classes. FAR less than 10%, safe to say, the Italians aforementioned as exception. None, NONE from Japan, though every other country in Asia seems to be well represented, by both students and teachers. Every 'more developed country,' as the OECD so indelicately puts it, struggles to hold back the flood of students from the 'developing countries," Europe as much or more so than the US. That's the facts.

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 7:38:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] In 'everyday' classes at decently rated universities, how many are there from France or Germany or Britain or from Spain, or even from Poland or Hungary? I came here on a student visa from Belgium. Not because of the quality education though, the Belgian colleges I could have gone through far exceed in standards anything I've encountered in the US AND are virtually free compared to the US ones. I came here on a student visa though, because with the current immigration procedures, a student visa is your easiest, cheapest, long term ticket into the country. I know of two other European students here on a student visa for the exact same reason.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 8:37:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] In 'everyday' classes at decently rated universities, how many are there from France or Germany or Britain or from Spain, or even from Poland or Hungary? I came here on a student visa from Belgium. Not because of the quality education though, the Belgian colleges I could have gone through far exceed in standards anything I've encountered in the US AND are virtually free compared to the US ones. I came here on a student visa though, because with the current immigration procedures, a student visa is your easiest, cheapest, long term ticket into the country. I know of two other European students here on a student visa for the exact same reason. So, you wanted to live here? Why not get your Bachelor's Degree (or equivalent) and then come here on a student visa? Or, get all the degrees you wanted there and then go for one last one here? Or, are student visas not as easy to come by if you already have an education?

vincentML -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 8:46:25 AM)
quote: If education is a human right, that is, a right tied to the being being a human (as opposed to a dog, cat, chupacabra, etc.), how is it that it has an age limit or attainment level cap? Is education's point to maximize society, or a tool for a person to use to improve him/herself? If it's the latter, by not supporting all people equally (regardless of whatever metric you use to determine "merit"), you are supporting the creation of separate classes of citizens. The person that didn't merit a post-secondary education has just been given a much more difficult path towards lifting hi/her lifestyle, while you've just made it "easier" for the kid that merit a higher education. It is both a tool for self actualization AND a benefit to community. Along with Rights come Responsibilities. If a young person has squandered that Right by failing to achieve a minimal level of merit to continue it simply imperils any further right to financially supported education. However, there are community colleges and other venues for remedial education available to that person to reclaim some merit and then go on to post-secondary education. The Right is still available.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 8:58:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: If education is a human right, that is, a right tied to the being being a human (as opposed to a dog, cat, chupacabra, etc.), how is it that it has an age limit or attainment level cap? Is education's point to maximize society, or a tool for a person to use to improve him/herself? If it's the latter, by not supporting all people equally (regardless of whatever metric you use to determine "merit"), you are supporting the creation of separate classes of citizens. The person that didn't merit a post-secondary education has just been given a much more difficult path towards lifting hi/her lifestyle, while you've just made it "easier" for the kid that merit a higher education. It is both a tool for self actualization AND a benefit to community. Along with Rights come Responsibilities. If a young person has squandered that Right by failing to achieve a minimal level of merit to continue it simply imperils any further right to financially supported education. However, there are community colleges and other venues for remedial education available to that person to reclaim some merit and then go on to post-secondary education. The Right is still available. I would not be so quick as to cast aspersions on those that don't succeed in education as "squandering" their right. If the parents aren't supportive or aren't providing a supportive environment, is it the kid's fault for the lack of merit achievement?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 9:02:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar quote: ORIGINAL: Edwynn quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Which is why our colleges are around 10% international students... because of US isolationism and our inferior universities...[8\|] In 'everyday' classes at decently rated universities, how many are there from France or Germany or Britain or from Spain, or even from Poland or Hungary? I came here on a student visa from Belgium. Not because of the quality education though, the Belgian colleges I could have gone through far exceed in standards anything I've encountered in the US AND are virtually free compared to the US ones. I came here on a student visa though, because with the current immigration procedures, a student visa is your easiest, cheapest, long term ticket into the country. I know of two other European students here on a student visa for the exact same reason. So, you wanted to live here? Why not get your Bachelor's Degree (or equivalent) and then come here on a student visa? Or, get all the degrees you wanted there and then go for one last one here? Or, are student visas not as easy to come by if you already have an education? The man I was dating lives here. It had nothing to do with education, and waiting a couple of years by getting a BA at home first would have defeated the purpose of moving. And student visas are given easily, even with prior education, providing you have the money to pay for them, and a college that will accept you. You need to proof that you're capable of paying the foreign student tuition rates (higher than for out of state students) and are able to pay for your living expenses for a year at a time, (the cost of which is a different number for each college, but is usually between $10,000-$30,000). It all totals up to quite a sum before you're even eligible for a visa, especially for the better respected colleges, but it's still the cheapest and/or easiest way to get a nearly guaranteed ticket into the country. Getting your BA here, instead of abroad has as added benefit that it's infinitely easier to switch from a student visa to a work visa, than it is to apply for the same work visa from abroad, even if you're abroad and better qualified than you would have been by getting your BA in the states. Once you're here on a student visa, you've got your foot in the door, and everything else becomes much easier (though there are still no guarantees you'll actually be able to secure a work visa). Getting a work visa while living abroad, except in certain exceptional cases, or for a few select, high in demand professions is extremely hard to do. People who already have a foothold in the country, and a personal relationship with an employer willing to sponsor them have an unbelievable leg up when it comes to securing a visa. The only way into the country that doesn't require tons more money and is easier than a student visa is if you have closely related family already living here (which is why most Mexicans have a much easier time securing a visa than Europeans or Asians do). Even a marriage visa is much harder to secure than a student visa, and that's not because of the difficulty in securing a spouse.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 9:12:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar The man I was dating lives here. It had nothing to do with education, and waiting a couple of years by getting a BA at home first would have defeated the purpose of moving. Thank you for taking my questions as intended. Why would it have defeated the purpose of moving?

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/8/2013 9:20:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri quote: ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar The man I was dating lives here. It had nothing to do with education, and waiting a couple of years by getting a BA at home first would have defeated the purpose of moving. Thank you for taking my questions as intended. Why would it have defeated the purpose of moving? Because the goal in moving wasn't getting an education, it was to be closer to the man I dates. Delaying that move for several years by getting a BA at home, to then have a decreased chance of getting a visa would have made the focus of the move education, which I could get at a better, higher, and cheaper level back home. The goal was to increase time spend with him as much as possible, as fast as possible, and as easily as possible... spending time getting a BA at home while keeping us apart would have probably ended the relationship, and if the relationship had ended before even moving, there wouldn't have been a point in moving. So getting a BA first, would have defeated the purpose... Edited to add: When you find foreign students in less prestigious American colleges, especially at the community college level, there's a good chance they're far more interested in getting into the US than they are about getting a US education. They may be -and probably are- still interested in getting an eduction, but the reason they're getting it here instead of abroad has got little to do with their interest in American colleges specifically, and everything to do with their interest in getting an easy green card.

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