Is there a "Right to Education"?

Is there a "Right to Education"? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:31:39 AM)
This issue arose on another thread, where one poster disputed the "Right to Education" which is part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. His point of view is\|: "[i]A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? Where does the right end? If I have a right to education, who pays for it? Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education?" For mine, the right to education is so basic that this is the first time I have heard it disputed. For parents (in the first instance) and State to fail to provide an education to children makes me wonder if either understands the responsibilities inherent in bringing a child into this world in the first place. Your thoughts please .......

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 7:47:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle This issue arose on another thread, where one poster disputed the "Right to Education" which is part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. His point of view is\|: "[i]A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? Where does the right end? If I have a right to education, who pays for it? Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education?" For mine, the right to education is so basic that this is the first time I have heard it disputed. For parents (in the first instance) and State to fail to provide an education to children makes me wonder if either understands the responsibilities inherent in bringing a child into this world in the first place. Your thoughts please ....... Not going to answer the questions you quoted, are you?

tweakabelle -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:35:21 AM)
quote: Not going to answer the questions you quoted, are you? I had intended to wait until a few others posted responses but as you asked, here goes: Q. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? An education is a learning process that imparts a series of behaviours, skills and knowledges that foster personal development and enable people to become productive members of society. Until a child reaches maturity, its parents are responsible for ensuring the child receives its education. In modern societies it is a more practical and beneficial arrangement for the State to provide education. IMHO the State has a separate responsibility to ensure all its citizens are equipped with the knowledges and skills necessary to become a productive responsible member of that society. Q. Where does the right end? When the recipient has received such knowledges and skills as are needed to enable them to maximise their potential. In practice, this usually happens through a self selecting process once a certain age or level of development has been achieved - therefore it varies considerably from individual to individual. Q. If I have a right to education, who pays for it? There are many arrangements for funding education, none of them perfect. I prefer the State to fund it - this is the best way of achieving an equal chance in life for all children, which is IMHO an important principle. Q. Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education? See above. While most of my responses deal with children, please don't think I am excluding adult education . Adult education is an important part of education generally and most of the above applies to it too. Funding arrangements tend to be different for adult education as unlike children adults have the ability to self-finance their further education. I am at a loss to understand your claim that " guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible". I see no reason why this ought to be the case. Please explain your thinking.

thompsonx -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:36:42 AM)
quote: "A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible. Why not? quote: What is education, Perfect starting point. Everything a parent does from birth onward is education .I am sure you and the state would both hold culpable any parent who failed to "civilize" their child. If your child vandalizes public or private property you would be legally responsible...of course the child would be responsible to dad. My point is that you were legally liable for your failure to "educate" your child to be respectful of others. quote: and who is responsible for providing it? Who insures those things you consider rights? The state provides for a police department to enforce rights,laws,statutes etc. So if it is a right then it would be the responsibility of the state to provide it. quote: Where does the right end? Pretty much like the things you consider rights: quote: Article 1 Right to Equality Article 2 Freedom from Discrimination Article 3 Right to Life, Liberty, Personal Security Article 4 Freedom from Slavery Article 5 Freedom from Torture and Degrading Treatment Article 6 Right to Recognition as a Person before the Law Article 7 Right to Equality before the Law Article 8 Right to Remedy by Competent Tribunal Article 9 Freedom from Arbitrary Arrest and Exile Article 10 Right to Fair Public Hearing Article 11 Right to be Considered Innocent until Proven Guilty Article 12 Freedom from Interference with Privacy, Family, Home and Correspondence Article 13 Right to Free Movement in and out of the Country Article 14 Right to Asylum in other Countries from Persecution Article 15 Right to a Nationality and the Freedom to Change It Article 16 Right to Marriage and Family Article 17 Right to Own Property Article 18 Freedom of Belief and Religion Article 19 Freedom of Opinion and Information Article 20 Right of Peaceful Assembly and Association Article 21 Right to Participate in Government and in Free Elections Article 30 Freedom from State or Personal Interference in the above Rights Like your right to own property is limited by your greed so also is your right to an education...no? quote: If I have a right to education, who pays for it? Those who benifit from your knowledge are the rightful paymasters...just as your right to peaceful assembly and association benifits the state by making it more free and equitible so also does your educational level benifit the state,(higher pay more taxes,purchase more consumer goods causing higher employment...you know shit you are in favor of.) quote: Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education?" You have a right to be educated to the level of your intelligence...you know fill the vessel till it is full,pressurize it and add pressure till failure,recreate vessel and operate at rms to infinity

Yachtie -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:38:58 AM)
Education as to or in what would that be Tweek? To what information or knowledge does one have a Right to receive?

tweakabelle -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 8:49:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie Education as to or in what would that be Tweek? To what information or knowledge does one have a Right to receive? The aim of education is to impart a series of behaviours, skills and knowledges that foster personal development and enable people to become productive members of society. So whatever behaviours knowledges and skills that are necessary to achieve those goals. Obviously the particulars will vary according to many personal (eg individual talents, intelligence etc) and external factors (eg the level of development of that society, the availability of funding and trained teachers etc). Literacy and numeracy skills, decision making skills, analytic skills, problem solving skills, communications skills, inter-personal skills and the like are all included in the above.

thezeppo -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:03:19 AM)
Education should be a necessity rather than a right. Its about so much more than the accumulation of knowledge, its about imparting culture and societal norms and values as well. Education is the most important thing the state can provide (that and health care) and the state should offer education until the age of 18. If it were up to me it would be 21, and 18-21 would be specialisation in a vocational or academic subject. Not sure how home-schooling fits into that though, I've never met anyone who was home-schooled.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:14:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: Not going to answer the questions you quoted, are you? I had intended to wait until a few others posted responses but as you asked, here goes: Q. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? An education is a learning process that imparts a series of behaviours, skills and knowledges that foster personal development and enable people to become productive members of society. Until a child reaches maturity, its parents are responsible for ensuring the child receives its education. In modern societies it is a more practical and beneficial arrangement for the State to provide education. IMHO the State has a separate responsibility to ensure all its citizens are equipped with the knowledges and skills necessary to become a productive responsible member of that society. What happens when the State isn't producing 18 year olds equipped with knowledge and skills to be productive members of society? Forget "responsible;" that's more age-related. Who steps in if the parents aren't upholding this "responsibility?" That would be the State, then. Which really means that if a parent or parents aren't responsibly adding or supporting the education of their child(ren), the State taxpayers will be shouldering the load, with the local taxpayers shouldering the majority of that load. Sorta shifts the responsibility off parents, doesn't it? What happens when a generation grows up reliant on State-support and makes their lives based on maintaining this state support? Is it going to be continuing responsibility of the State to finish the job of getting these people ready to be productive and responsible members of society? Can you not see how that mucks the whole process up? quote: Q. Where does the right end? When the recipient has received such knowledges and skills as are needed to enable them to maximise their potential. In practice, this usually happens through a self selecting process once a certain age or level of development has been achieved - therefore it varies considerably from individual to individual. So, you can lose the right simply be aging? How is that a right, then? I thought a Human Right was something tied to your being a human, not just a human to a certain age? quote: Q. If I have a right to education, who pays for it? There are many arrangements for funding education, none of them perfect. I prefer the State to fund it - this is the best way of achieving an equal chance in life for all children, which is IMHO an important principle. Conflating equal opportunity with the right to a State funded education is disingenuous at the very least. Leave it out. The funding is extremely important in reality. Do I have the right to a State funded education at Harvard Medical School? quote: Q. Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education? See above. The only "above" that answers this is your nebulous answer that your right to an education ends at a "certain age or level of development." quote: While most of my responses deal with children, please don't think I am excluding adult education . Adult education is an important part of education generally and most of the above applies to it too. Funding arrangements tend to be different for adult education as unlike children adults have the ability to self-finance their further education. I am at a loss to understand your claim that " guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible". I see no reason why this ought to be the case. Please explain your thinking. Guaranteeing a right to access to an education is one thing, but guaranteeing that education is another. The adage, "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" applies here. The right to an education puts the onus for achievement on the back of the providers (and financiers) rather than on the back of the consumer (the one getting the education). I wholeheartedly agree that no one should be denied access to a basic education simply because of some characteristic that person can not change. I argue against raising my taxes for a public education system that is continuing to fail when I don't see simply throwing money at the problem to be a potential solution. I value my public education and have no problem with my taxes supporting public education.

mnottertail -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:17:00 AM)
One of the largest ways in which we are continuing to fail is we haven't dumped that piece of shit teabagger no child left behind.

DesideriScuri -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:20:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail One of the largest ways in which we are continuing to fail is we haven't dumped that piece of shit teabagger no child left behind. NCLB was yet another good Government intention that failed miserably.

JeffBC -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:24:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Your thoughts please ....... My thought is that I don't agree with "rights" in the absolute sense except for what comes at the barrel of a gunpoint. In a more pragmatic sense I think that any sane society would seek to maximize the productivity and utility of all of it's citizens rather than seek to prop up one group on the backs of another. Also, in the pragmatic sense, I think that any democracy needs to treat educating the voting populace to be a critical part of the smooth functioning of government. So if we want to bail on education then we ought to give up on democracy also.

eulero83 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:37:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle "[i]A right to education is non-existent. It is desirable and well worth the cost to get one, but guaranteeing every person has a right to an education isn't possible. What is education, and who is responsible for providing it? Where does the right end? If I have a right to education, who pays for it? Do I have a right to a doctorate? Do I have a right to a particular level of university education?" Being a right means it's something that has to be guaranteed by autorities in order to protect a weaker subject from controlling subjects that could block reching the status protected by the right, in this case it's a right guaranteed to a minor that's dependant on parents or a guardian and public administartion, so national governaments to guarantee the right of education have to impose on parents education as a primary necessity for child raising and organize pubblic administration in order to provide the logistic to guarantee access to this right. Education is a level of knowledge that allow the person to be part of the society he's gonna live in so for example in the austro-hungarian empire in 1774 being society based mostly on agricolture education was imposed till the 6th grade, in italy nowdays it's imposed from 6 to 18 years of age, actually highschool ends at 19 years but majority comes at 18. Under governament direction pubblic administration and parents have to provide education. The right never ends but the responsibility ends when the eprson is no more dependant from the responsible subject, so family legal obbligations can stop at age of majority moral obbligation are personal, pubblic administration duty never ends as must provide accessible education for all levels. Parents being responsible for the well being of the child have to provide education if it's not possible for them pubblic administration has to provide. Actually in my country works like this: school are almost all pubblic and located in all the territory, at a distance that can be reaches by the person who have to attend, so primary schools have to be at shorter distance than high schools as for a 9 years old kid cant's take a pubblic train or bus alone like a teenager, if you don't send a kid to school it's a felony, even if you are not citizen but alien resident, you can't provide for your children you can ask social service aid, admission is guaranteed at any education level even for doctorate (only for medical or veterinary school that have a national maximum number of students), but there are selection criterias for adult edication scolarships.

eulero83 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 9:46:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Your thoughts please ....... My thought is that I don't agree with "rights" in the absolute sense except for what comes at the barrel of a gunpoint. In a more pragmatic sense I think that any sane society would seek to maximize the productivity and utility of all of it's citizens rather than seek to prop up one group on the backs of another. I think you took the worst parts of capitalism and communism and mixed them up.

vincentML -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 10:15:02 AM)
quote: Conflating equal opportunity with the right to a State funded education is disingenuous at the very least. Leave it out. The funding is extremely important in reality. Do I have the right to a State funded education at Harvard Medical School? You can't leave it out. Equal opportunity is essential to the Western creed. The communities of the West strive to offer an equal starting point regardless of race, religion, gender identity, etc. In order to achieve this [which we have not really] the various nations of the West have decided to pay for it using tax dollars and setting a limit for the availabilty of the opportunity. It is impractical to achieve such a goal intrinsic to our democracies in any other system than public education, which must be paid for because teachers services are means to the end. Come to find out that successful systems of public education offer benefits to the entire community. A little touch of social democracy, TYVM.

muhly22222 -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 11:16:50 AM)
I think it's quite important to separate out two distinct rights here. There's the right to be educated, and the right to receive a public education...those are two different, though related, things. I don't know of any (sane) person who disputes the idea that people have a right to receive an education. Education happens every moment of our lives, even if it's in something inane and useless. Learning how to read, how to think, how to do math, etc. - these are all things that every person has a right to, period. How that's done is the question, and that's where the right to receive a public education comes into play. In general, I'm in favor of restricting the role of government. But education is one area that government should be involved in, although there should also be an alternative private market available. If education is left solely in the hands of private actors, those who live in poverty will be able to receive at best a partial education. My evidence for this is historical...look at early American colonies (or the frontier) where there wasn't private education. Those children whose parents couldn't afford to pay their part of a teacher's salary were left on their own, and often ended up illiterate. Illiterate people are not able to adequately engage in the exchange of ideas that is so critical to the democratic process in a free society. Thus, they are unable to be the kind of citizen that they are expected to be. And that's the government's interest in educating them. Unfortunately, all too often in modern days, education has been taken to mean "indoctrination" (and that's coming from both sides). When the government's education of its future voters fails to properly educate the children (at least in the eyes of their parents), that's where the private market comes in. All children should have the right to attend a private school, provided that they meet the standards of that school (a certain level of academic achievement, payment of tuition, etc.).

farglebargle -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 11:21:15 AM)
CAPITALISM works best when you have the broadest base of capitalists participating. You obtain that by providing education, so that those who can compete effectively don't suffer any lack of access to the market due to any lack of educational opportunity. And if a so-called-capitalist opposes educating the competition, I would suggest asking them why they're afraid of a little honest competition, and ask why we as a society should endorse his inability to compete?

YN -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 12:06:03 PM)
I don't think there is a "right" to an education, so much as that a modern nation is under a duty to educate it's as many of it's population as well as possible to the reasonable best of its financial abilities. Educating the people, along with providing police and judicial services, and providing for a nation's defense are the basic and necessary duties of any nation; and failing in this duty or the others, is a national failing. Not all nations can afford to educate its people to the degreed post secondary level, but even the poorest of nations certainly can insure the great majority of it's children reach adulthood able to read and write, as well as having a basic understanding and comprehension of history, the sciences, as well as social and economic theory.

vincentML -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 12:38:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle CAPITALISM works best when you have the broadest base of capitalists participating. You obtain that by providing education, so that those who can compete effectively don't suffer any lack of access to the market due to any lack of educational opportunity. And if a so-called-capitalist opposes educating the competition, I would suggest asking them why they're afraid of a little honest competition, and ask why we as a society should endorse his inability to compete? While I favor mandated public education it is not for the sake of CAPITALISM. It is for the sake of civil betterment. You don't have to be educated to any significant degree to borrow some money and set up a fruit stall. Anyway, what does that mean: "CAPITALISM works best?" You might say instead that capitalism works best when regulated and subsudized by government, might you not?

Darkfeather -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 12:52:18 PM)
Sad part is, there are several other countries out there that have free educational systems up and running. And I quote: Free education refers to education that is funded through taxation, or charitable organizations rather than tuition fees. Although primary school and other comprehensive or compulsory education is free in many countries, for example, all education is mostly free (often not including books (from primary) and a number of administrative and sundry fees in university) including post-graduate studies in the Nordic countries. In Argentina, Norway and Finland, no fees apply for foreign students enrolling at a university, although they may not be eligible for a monthly study allowance and loan. Bachelor degree programmes in Norway are solely taught in Norwegian. Master degree programmes in Norway are offered in either Norwegian or English depending on the programme and/or university. Sweden, until recently, provided free education to foreign students but changes have been introduced to charge fees to foreign students from outside of the European community. Denmark also has universal free education, and provides a monthly stipend, the "Statens Uddannelsesstøtte" or "SU", to students over 18 years of age or students who are under 18 and attending a higher education. Bachelor and master degree programmes in Denmark are offered in either Danish or English depending on the programme and/or university. Greece and Argentina provide free education at all levels, including college and university. In Brazil, free education is offered by the Ministry of Education. The Ministry offers scholarships for graduate degrees, masters, doctoral and post-doctoral for Brazilians and immigrants who have Brazilian citizenship. The best universities and research centers are public institutions, financed by either the local state (state universities) or the federal government (federal universities). Graduate students can get paid if they qualify for the incentive but competition is extremely fierce. There has been a proliferation in the last 10 years of private universities which are interested in providing professional training to their undergraduates. These private colleges are not interested in nurturing research centers, since it is not part of their business model to get involved with research. In Sri Lanka, free education is provided by the government at different levels. Government funded schools such as national schools, provincial schools and piriven provided primary and secondary education free, while assisted schools and semi-governmental schools provided the same at subsidized rates. At the university level, the state universities provide undergraduate courses free, however this totals only about 10% for those qualified for university entrance. Grants and scholarships are provided for a limited number as study allowances. Elsewhere, free education usually comes to students in the form of scholarships and grants, if they cover all or most of students' expenses. Individuals, institutions and advocacy initiatives are examples of providers of grants and scholarships. They may have economic (e.g. tax-deductibility), humanitarian, charitable or religious motivations. There are examples of steps towards free education being taken across the world primarily in those nations developing rapidly, such as China. In some developing countries like Sri Lanka, education is free from the primary level to the tertiary level. The renowned centers of learning in Libya and Cuba may be attended free of charge. In Mauritius the government provides free education to its citizens from pre-primary to tertiary levels. Since July 2005, the government also introduced free transport for all students. In European countries such as Spain, France and Italy tuition is usually free for European students.

vincentML -> RE: Is there a "Right to Education"? (4/4/2013 12:57:18 PM)
quote: Sad part is, there are several other countries out there that have free educational systems up and running. And I quote: Why is that sad?

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