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breagha -> just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:18:18 PM)

hi all! i am looking for a little bit of advice... or maybe some if i were you i would ____

my daughter's father has kind of fucked up ( again ) in a big way.

Brief back story is : we were dating, broke up, found out i was pregnant after the fact. i told him i didn't want anything from him and he told me he didn't want to be involved. Fast forward 3 years later he decided he wanted to meet my daughter. After discussing this with my parents and sister, i agreed to them meeting. My child will be 8 in june. between the ages of 3 and 8 he's spent 2 years in prison ( two separate occasions ) and a year away from her because it was a violation of parole to contact me. Last April we instated an every other weekend visitation schedule. 3 weeks later was his most recent start of jail time. November he was released and we started visits again in December.

Fast forward to Easter morning - Daughter was supposed to spend the night with him Easter night because her brother was visiting at that time as well. She decided she didn't want to ( to the point that she was sick to her stomach and couldn't sleep over it ) so she told him so. When she did he said " fine goodbye" and hung up. Called back and told her that she could stay away from him and his family forever. This obviously upset her. Three nights ago he called me ( i didn't answer ) and stated he wanted to speak to HIS daughter. She refuses to call him or acknowledge him because she is angry and sad that he treated her the way he did.

my question to everyone is... should i attempt to help her mend the rift between them? or should i just leave it alone? we don't have any legal custody in place, she has always lived with me. i am afraid that if i don't push her to contact him that there will be a huge court battle that i can't afford to fight and win.



OsideGirl -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:24:09 PM)

I would just tell her that if she changes her mind and wants to to talk to him, that it's okay. Otherwise, I wouldn't push it. He's hurt her and I wouldn't minimize that by trying to smooth it over. (and to be honest, that's his duck to take care of).




breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:29:42 PM)

that is what my gut tells me. He's a really manipulative man. i think sometimes i let my fear of (conflict with) him make me question my maternal instincts. i suppose that is my thing to take care of



BitaTruble -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:30:16 PM)

The sperm donor made a wish and it got granted.

Let her know that even adults make mistakes and say stupid things and let her decide for herself, when she's ready, what she wants to do. After that, I wouldn't bring it up again unless she does. If and when she does bring it up, consider her decision, then be her advocate and do what you think is best. That's the gig the way I play it.



LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:38:12 PM)

Wow. So the first three years of her life, he wanted no involvement, 3 of the 5 where he DID want involvement he was either in prison or restrained from seeing the child, he has never paid a dime of child support, and you are worried he will take you to court and win? Really?

The courts do believe that every child should have a right to both parents. However, first they also believe that both parents share the financial burden of raising the child. So while you have done your part to make sure your daughter knows both of her parents, he has failed to contribute financially.

You don't say why he was in prison, or why his parole agreement prohibited him from seeing the child. That is something I would have seriously considered before even thinking about allowing visitation, let alone an overnight visit.

Another thing you left out was why your daughter didn't want to go to the overnight visit. Again, this is important, did you ask her?

Based on what you have said so far, I would say this guy is volatile, and possibly can blow up at any time. Are you one of those cell phone only, no landline people? Or do you have a landline? First thing I would do is get yourself a device to record conversations. Completely legal in the state of NY, as long as you are party to the conversation and you don't need to tell him. Of course, this is easier with a landline, but I believe there is stuff you can get to do it with a cell phone. It's important to remember not to record his conversations with your daughter, as you aren't a party to them.

Did you listen in on the call where he said that to her? You should answer his call next time and tell him that what he did was grossly inappropriate, and you won't subject your daughter to that kind of verbal abuse.

I wouldn't really worry about an expensive court battle. Should he file for some kind of visitation (they would never award custody), chances are you would qualify for legal aid (not 100% sure of this in NY, but pretty sure), so you wouldn't be fighting it alone. Even if you didn't get the legal aid, this kind of case is actually really simple to represent yourself on. Feel free to cmail me if you have other questions. I worked in Family Law, specializing in custody issues for 20 years.



OsideGirl -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:42:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

that is what my gut tells me. He's a really manipulative man. i think sometimes i let my fear of (conflict with) him make me question my maternal instincts. i suppose that is my thing to take care of


I get that. The father of my younger brother was pretty much the same.

When my mother divorced him, he demanded visitation, which he did for awhile....and then he pretty much ignored my brother from then on. He would just randomly show up in my brothers life, demand attention, then go back to ignoring him.

When he was 9 years old, my mother made me his legal guardian if something happened to her, at my brother's request. (I was 19) When we went to court, the judge asked my brother why he chose me and absolutely listened to my brother's response.

Tom was about the same age as your daughter when we started explaining to him, that it wasn't his fault or anything he had done. That it was just how his father was, and if he wanted contact with his father it was okay...and it was okay if he didn't want contact, too.



Level -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:55:00 PM)

Great post by Lafayette Lady. Guy has huge red flags flapping all around him.



breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:57:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Wow. So the first three years of her life, he wanted no involvement, 3 of the 5 where he DID want involvement he was either in prison or restrained from seeing the child, he has never paid a dime of child support, and you are worried he will take you to court and win? Really?

He has paid child support before. The state granted me 25 dollars a month. He is two years behind on that now. Not that it makes a huge difference.

You don't say why he was in prison, or why his parole agreement prohibited him from seeing the child. That is something I would have seriously considered before even thinking about allowing visitation, let alone an overnight visit.

he was in jail for varied reasons each time. Most it all fell under the veil of violation of probation or parole. He was not prohibited from seeing her. He was prohibited from contacting me even through a third party because i had him arrested for assault ( 3rd degree ) The rest of the charges are all drug or alcohol related.

Another thing you left out was why your daughter didn't want to go to the overnight visit. Again, this is important, did you ask her?

Of course i asked her. She said that she didn't want to be away from home and that daddy's house creeps her out. Usually she visits him and spends the night overnight with her grandparents ( his parents ). she has since stated that she wants to see her grandparents but is afraid that if she goes there he will be there and she doesn't want to see him

Based on what you have said so far, I would say this guy is volatile, and possibly can blow up at any time.

[b]Absolutely the truth.

Did you listen in on the call where he said that to her? You should answer his call next time and tell him that what he did was grossly inappropriate, and you won't subject your daughter to that kind of verbal abuse.

i listened to the call the first time because she was sitting right next to me and i could hear him. The second time i answered the phone and he asked to speak to her and i thought he might be wanting to apologise to her

I wouldn't really worry about an expensive court battle. Should he file for some kind of visitation (they would never award custody), chances are you would qualify for legal aid (not 100% sure of this in NY, but pretty sure), so you wouldn't be fighting it alone. Even if you didn't get the legal aid, this kind of case is actually really simple to represent yourself on. Feel free to cmail me if you have other questions. I worked in Family Law, specializing in custody issues for 20 years.


i would qualify for legal aid. Legal aid is what got me the 25$ a month in child support.

i have a very good open line on communication with my daughter. Even though i didn't want to think anything had happened, when she told me she was sick to her stomach over this whole situation i worried and asked every question in the book trying to figure out if something had happened. She is very attached to me. It has always been just the two of us...

i really appreciate all the thought and questions you posed. and the offer to cmail you if i have questions. Thank you



breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 5:59:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Great post by Lafayette Lady. Guy has huge red flags flapping all around him.


if only i had seen the red flags before all the shit hit the fan... could have saved a huge mess



breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:08:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha

that is what my gut tells me. He's a really manipulative man. i think sometimes i let my fear of (conflict with) him make me question my maternal instincts. i suppose that is my thing to take care of


I get that. The father of my younger brother was pretty much the same.

When my mother divorced him, he demanded visitation, which he did for awhile....and then he pretty much ignored my brother from then on. He would just randomly show up in my brothers life, demand attention, then go back to ignoring him.

When he was 9 years old, my mother made me his legal guardian if something happened to her, at my brother's request. (I was 19) When we went to court, the judge asked my brother why he chose me and absolutely listened to my brother's response.

Tom was about the same age as your daughter when we started explaining to him, that it wasn't his fault or anything he had done. That it was just how his father was, and if he wanted contact with his father it was okay...and it was okay if he didn't want contact, too.


Marlie was 4 when i started explaining to her that sometimes daddy makes bad decisions and when adults make really bad decisions sometimes the police have to take them to a time out. Now she knows that he was in jail and that is what the time out was. my daughter is a really bright child... she knows that she hasn't done anything wrong. i have told her that it is ok to be angry with him and sad about what he said to her. i've also expressed that it is her choice whether to talk to him or not. when i said that she said she never wanted to see him again.

i think my question here stemmed mostly from my fear of conflict with him. when she was 2 i petitioned the state to have him sign over rights ( this was when we went to court for child support ) and i was told that they wouldn't allow him to do that without "someone to take his place" because NY state doesn't want to see a mother raising a child on her own without support form the father or someone who is like a father. It didn't occur to me at the time to see if someone in my family could "take his place"



IknowwhoIam -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:13:34 PM)

From my experience of trying to force a relationship between my children and their father....don't do it. I was told by my own therapist, my children's therapist, and our marriage counselor (in front of him), if he wants a relationship with the child then it is up to him to do it. There was one time I had to literally force my crying 10 year old daughter into the car to go see her father. I would and will never do it again. There was no sexual abuse going on but plenty of mental and emotional abuse. Let your daughter be your guide, follow her lead when it comes to wanting to see and speak to him. Keep the lines of communication open between you and your daughter and consider letting the school psychologist and principal know what is going on because they can help her. Good luck!



TheBanshee -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:15:28 PM)

I would absolutely NOT encourage any relationship with this man and your child.

Let him call her - with supervision - if HE initiates the call. Don't go out of your way to get your daughter to call him.

Don't force her to see him if she doesn't want to. Deal with the visitation rules when you have to in court - but if she is uncomfortable don't force her.

Your daughter will be better off if he falls off the radar and fades from her life. Don't feel badly about that - it just is.



muhly22222 -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:28:21 PM)

I'm right with LL on this one, as far as the legal issues go. Don't worry about them.

The relationship between your daughter and her father is their relationship. You have no obligation to force anything, either legal or moral. If he wants to be a part of her life, he will have to make it right with her.



LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:39:23 PM)

You are quite welcome.

So he was abusive to you. Courts don't feel that would be an indicator that he would abuse your daughter, however, they do, when it is blatantly pointed out to them, grasp that the child can be used to further abuse the mother.

$25 bucks a month? Yea, he is out of jail now, that can be increased. Contact Child Support Enforcement and ask them about it.

NO court can deny someone terminating their parental rights because they don't want a single mother doing it alone, although I have seen that happen more than once.

However, terminating his rights terminates support as well. Terminating custodial rights and visitation does not. Yes, I do believe that regardless of the amount, you should get support from this man for as long as your daughter is a minor, and make sure that it is enforced (talk to local Child Support Enforcement about that as well).

I agree with the others that your daughter should not be forced to see her father under any circumstances. If you have a decent relationship with her paternal grandparents, talk to them about how Marlie feels and try to come up with some sort of compromise there. After what he has said, I wouldn't trust him to be near her. He's a loose cannon and she doesn't deserve his blow ups.

Have YOU spoken with him and explained to him that given his outburst with her, she is now very angry with him and doesn't want to talk to him? That given that outburst, you are wary even to try to help mend fences? Suggested that he attend some parenting classes and perhaps begin writing letters to Marlie, apologizing and admitting he was wrong, then simply writing and telling her about himself, his life, his hopes for her? Oh, and definitely let him know that those letters won't be private since he has already shown he doesn't know what is or is not appropriate to say to an 8 year old.




Level -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:47:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: breagha


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Great post by Lafayette Lady. Guy has huge red flags flapping all around him.


if only i had seen the red flags before all the shit hit the fan... could have saved a huge mess


We all have things we wish we could have known ahead of time; I don't doubt you did the best you could, don't you doubt it either.



breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:52:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

You are quite welcome.

So he was abusive to you. Courts don't feel that would be an indicator that he would abuse your daughter, however, they do, when it is blatantly pointed out to them, grasp that the child can be used to further abuse the mother.

$25 bucks a month? Yea, he is out of jail now, that can be increased. Contact Child Support Enforcement and ask them about it.

the 25 a month was set before he was in jail. he has a deal with his boss that makes it look like he makes very little money ( about 1/3 of what he actually makes) and that is what the court based the support off. Also he has 2 other children ( mine is the youngest ) that get a huge percentage more than Mar does for support. i'm unsure if that has anything to do with the amount she gets.

NO court can deny someone terminating their parental rights because they don't want a single mother doing it alone, although I have seen that happen more than once.

However, terminating his rights terminates support as well. Terminating custodial rights and visitation does not. Yes, I do believe that regardless of the amount, you should get support from this man for as long as your daughter is a minor, and make sure that it is enforced (talk to local Child Support Enforcement about that as well).

Terminating support would be fine with me honestly. Out of the 5.5 years that he was supposed to be paying we have seen about 1.5 in support. 6.25$ a week doesn't really do anything. Unless they up it to something that actually helps me out... i can live without it. So can my daughter.

I agree with the others that your daughter should not be forced to see her father under any circumstances. If you have a decent relationship with her paternal grandparents, talk to them about how Marlie feels and try to come up with some sort of compromise there. After what he has said, I wouldn't trust him to be near her. He's a loose cannon and she doesn't deserve his blow ups.

Have YOU spoken with him and explained to him that given his outburst with her, she is now very angry with him and doesn't want to talk to him?

i did let him know that i felt it was inappropriate for him to say the things he said to her. Regardless of how angry or hurt he was that she didn't want to spend the night. He just said "tell her she can call me whenever she wants to" and that was it. He won't apologise to her because he doesn't see what he did as wrong or inappropriate and stated as much.








DesFIP -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:55:08 PM)

Can you call Family Court and ask to speak to a child's law guardian? If so, that's the person to explain this situation to. If your daughter will talk to the guardian and explain why she doesn't want to see her father, that will carry more weight.

But I would try to get details from her as to what he's done that creeps her out. This might more easily be done by a play therapist. Who is someone who could then tell the court what she learned.



breagha -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 6:58:30 PM)

i could do that. i haven't yet.

my daughter was seeing a therapist regularly through her old school. When she changed schools to the one she attends currently they were having issues with their therapist. she saw 2 therapists at that school within 3 months. and was about to be assigned a 3rd. i am currently on a search to find one that can help her with what she is dealing with.

i didn't consider that her therapist could be an aid in court. thank you for that thought



DesFIP -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 7:03:17 PM)

I don't know if the one she saw at the old school would take her on as a private patient for a couple of visits. If so, she already knows and trusts her and she would be ideal.




LafayetteLady -> RE: just a mom needing advice (4/8/2013 7:14:01 PM)

Of course therapists can assist in custody/visitation cases, but they have to be willing to write a report to the court. Not all are, and I'm not sure a school therapist will. In your case, I don't see much need for one.

The conversation you had with him is one of the reasons that I say you should be recording those conversations. A court would be very interested in the fact that he doesn't think he did anything wrong. You may never need them, as he is likely to go away on his own, which seems to be ok with you, and ok with your daughter.

While you should over react or over analyze, you do need to prepare yourself should he file for visitation (which I honestly doubt based on what you have said here). Simply recording your conversations with him, and keeping a journal of how often he calls is enough. It gives you the information you need should he file, but also allows you to continue on with your life as normal.

Whether or not your daughter should speak to a therapist is up to you and her. She might achieve just as much talking with you (since you said the two of you are very close) as she would with a therapist. I know all the "therapist for everything" people will disagree with me, but there are cases where it is simply unnecessary. So ask her if she would like to talk to someone. Explain that you would find someone she could say anything to (which in my opinion, excludes school therapists), about anything without fear of hurting anyone's feelings. She could scream, yell, cry, whatever she needs. But not all kids need that.

You are doing all you can now for your daughter's best interest. If you are ok with the current support, then leave it alone. If you want more information, every county courthouse contains a law library open to the public and the librarian there can direct you to the correct books that will explain how support is calculated (which would explain about the other two children), as well as aspects of visitation. Being informed helps you should you ever need to appear in court again. It will also help you know what to ask a legal aid attorney and become an active participant in your case.

The most important thing you can do is remain aware that he is manipulative and don't let him do it to you.



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