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Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 1:34:48 PM   
Kirata


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Does a person have a right to end his or her life? How big a problem is suicide?
Obviously not the biggest bad guy on the block. But suicide counts come up in almost every gun debate. In fact, the firearms death toll in United States is mostly suicides. To be more exact, there are 2.3 times as many firearms suicides as murders. Is there a preference for firearms as a method?
Females prefer suffocation and poisons over firearms, males the reverse, though in both sexes the rate of firearms choice increases with age. But except for those in 65+ group, male suicides only use a gun in about half of cases and females much less across all ages.

So overall, the data show that people do not predominantly choose a firearm as their choice of method over a collection of other means. And while the suicide rate increases with age for both sexes, suicide by any means is overwhelmingly a male phenomenon.
When it comes to suicide, the significant predictors are sex and age, not the availability of a gun. But let's return to the first question.

Don't people have a right to end their lives if they want to? Is it anybody's business? Well yes, when mood-altering drugs enter the picture. Suicide rates have been rising since 1999, along with an increasing number people taking mood-altering pharmaceuticals. Nor should our concern be limited to suicides. Prior to the 1930's you could buy a machine-gun by mail order. School shootings? Zero.People have a right to die if they choose to, by any means they choose, including a firearm, and without owing anybody an explanation.

Guns and suicide are not the problem.

K.


References:
FBI 2011 Expanded Homicide Data
CDC 2011 Preliminary Mortality Rates
Suicide rates rising since 1999

Sources for graphics:
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/leading_causes.html
http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/mechanism02.html
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicide_rates_chart/en/

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 1:41:26 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Guns and suicide are not the problem.


I'd say government sanctioned pharma is. There have always been deaths by various means. It wasn't like this when I was young though.



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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 2:41:52 PM   
Nosathro


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Status: offline 		Join the Hemlock Society.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 6:30:36 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline 		My brother's fiance killed herself.

She tried twice with alcohol and pills.

Six months later she succeeded with her own gun.

She had a psych appointment scheduled for 3 days after she killed herself.

She had been on two 5150 holds within a 6 month period, but yet still could not get an appointment for psychiatric care until 6 months after her first attempt.

In CA, a 5150 hold means that if you have a firearm, the police come to remove the weapon. The police went to my brother's condo, because that's where she attempted suicide the first two times. When they were told that the weapon was at her home in Lancaster (as opposed to Woodland Hills where my brother lives), they went away and the authorities never again attempted to collect the weapon from her. When she moved in with my brother, she brought the weapon with her. (My brother didn't even know she had one, or he would have removed it himself)

So, the reality was...she kept trying...and would have kept trying until she succeeded. The gun was just one in a succession of items used.

And part two, our health system and the authorities failed.

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:05:25 PM   
midmichiganguy


Posts: 49
Joined: 11/8/2008
Status: offline 		Does a person have the right to end his/her life? Im m eyes, absolutely. However, that is only if they are terminally ill and the alternative is prolonged suffering. If they have mental health issues than I do not consider them in their right mind and I do not consider them to have the right at that point in time to commit suicide without first having had every opportunity to get treatment for their illness.

Personally I abhor suicide but I also understand the reasoning why the elderly, terminally ill, etc. etc. choose to end it all.


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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:17:06 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: midmichiganguy
Does a person have the right to end his/her life? Im m eyes, absolutely. However, that is only if they are terminally ill and the alternative is prolonged suffering. If they have mental health issues than I do not consider them in their right mind and I do not consider them to have the right at that point in time to commit suicide without first having had every opportunity to get treatment for their illness.
Personally I abhor suicide but I also understand the reasoning why the elderly, terminally ill, etc. etc. choose to end it all.


Why does it matter what the reasoning is, as long as they are of sound mind? Some might even challenge the terminally ill or those that will have a life of suffering are sound of mind.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:19:57 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why does it matter what the reasoning is, as long as they are of sound mind?



Someone suffering from depression or mental illness can't be presented as "sound mind".

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:24:03 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why does it matter what the reasoning is, as long as they are of sound mind?

Someone suffering from depression or mental illness can't be presented as "sound mind".


I'm not sure why you replied to me with this. My question was more along the lines of why midmichiganguy didn't have a problem with someone choosing to die if they were terminally ill. It's why I included the phrase, "as long as they are of sound mind." We completely agree that someone suffering from depression or mental illness aren't of sound mind.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:39:40 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



Does a person have a right to end his or her life?



If the phrase, "My body, My choice," really means anything, then darn skippy they do.

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I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 7:44:26 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why does it matter what the reasoning is, as long as they are of sound mind?

Someone suffering from depression or mental illness can't be presented as "sound mind".


I'm not sure why you replied to me with this. My question was more along the lines of why midmichiganguy didn't have a problem with someone choosing to die if they were terminally ill. It's why I included the phrase, "as long as they are of sound mind." We completely agree that someone suffering from depression or mental illness aren't of sound mind.



Because I'm sick and cranky.

When I read his post, I read that the only place he opposed it was mental illness. But, looking at what he wrote again, I see other possibilities.


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 8:56:12 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Why does it matter what the reasoning is, as long as they are of sound mind?

Someone suffering from depression or mental illness can't be presented as "sound mind".

I'm not sure why you replied to me with this. My question was more along the lines of why midmichiganguy didn't have a problem with someone choosing to die if they were terminally ill. It's why I included the phrase, "as long as they are of sound mind." We completely agree that someone suffering from depression or mental illness aren't of sound mind.

Because I'm sick and cranky.
When I read his post, I read that the only place he opposed it was mental illness. But, looking at what he wrote again, I see other possibilities.


Understand completely. Hope you get well soon!


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 9:08:12 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		But if you are not of 'sound mind' you could very well be suffering horribly. Often we brush aside mental disease as lesser than physical disease. If your brain just isn't functioning properly, who is to say your suffering isn't equivalent to that of the cancer patient? The decision to live or die is the only thing a person can do that is a true exercise of choice and control over their body. In the end, our life is the only thing we truly possess and is most precious to us, everything else is a fiction of our society. Most of us choose to live and make use of our life, but who is to say we should live when we have no desire to at all?

Having said all that, we should make every resource available to those struggling with that decision. We should never be callous or neglectful of the suffering that may lead to such a grave decision. But in the end we should not deny someone the mercy they desperately seek.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/9/2013 9:12:56 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Often we brush aside mental disease as lesser than physical disease.

I think it may actually be worse, simply because we understand less about it. Hell, anti-depressants work in some people and cause suicidal tendencies in others. It's so hit or miss.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 1:28:26 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Often we brush aside mental disease as lesser than physical disease.

I think it may actually be worse, simply because we understand less about it. Hell, anti-depressants work in some people and cause suicidal tendencies in others. It's so hit or miss.


Which to me, is why you don't let people commit suicide. Until all options are exhausted, mental illness is, most often treatable. I am not in any way negating the suffering of those with any kind of mental illness. However, when someone is terminally ill, I connect that phrase to....there is nothing left to try. Even with Alzheimer patients, I don't believe they should end their life until the forgetfulness is more often than the remembering.

What suicide NEVER considers are the people around the dead person. Plus our system is so fucked up, look at your brother's girlfriend. Someone who needed help, was suicidal and there is a waiting list. It is the same thing here, although marginally better. Here, if someone is depressed, but not suicidal, there is a waiting list. So in order to get help, you have to voluntarily commit yourself, saying that you think you might harm yourself. Now you are labeled as suicidal, which changes the way you are treated to begin with. Where is the sense in that?

Why should someone who is depressed and reaching out for help have to wait six months or say they are suicidal? Is there no one considering that the time on the waiting list may make someone suicidal?

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 3:24:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
But if you are not of 'sound mind' you could very well be suffering horribly. Often we brush aside mental disease as lesser than physical disease. If your brain just isn't functioning properly, who is to say your suffering isn't equivalent to that of the cancer patient? The decision to live or die is the only thing a person can do that is a true exercise of choice and control over their body. In the end, our life is the only thing we truly possess and is most precious to us, everything else is a fiction of our society. Most of us choose to live and make use of our life, but who is to say we should live when we have no desire to at all?
Having said all that, we should make every resource available to those struggling with that decision. We should never be callous or neglectful of the suffering that may lead to such a grave decision. But in the end we should not deny someone the mercy they desperately seek.


The issue I have with allowing suicide to the mentally unsound, is that it may not be the way they truly feel, if they had a sound mind. And, that is the problem in it's entirety. If a person is of a sound mind and understands what they are choosing if they choose suicide, then, well, there it is. It is a very sad thing, IMO, that someone would choose suicide when there is so much to live for and so much to do. The terminally ill and infirmed tend to be older, so they have already lived for and done much.

But, the "sound mind" principle would have to be the main test, IMO.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 4:51:20 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		I get it, but it is a circular problem. Your sanity is always brought into question when you are suicidal. So, how do you make that determination of sound mind? Most suicides are not someone who have acute mental disease like schizophrenia. They are often normal people facing everything from, death, public outcast, to failure. I think they do know what they are choosing. Let's face it, in most cases it is a bad idea and they can get past it. But that is why I said we should make every resource available to them to prevent that decision. But in my support for freedom, I don't think it is appropriate to force someone to live. Maybe that means once less dumbass picks up a gun and takes out a school. Let them keep the body count to one.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 5:01:54 AM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata



Does a person have a right to end his or her life? How big a problem is suicide?

Obviously not the biggest bad guy on the block. But suicide counts come up in almost every gun debate. In fact, the firearms death toll in United States is mostly suicides. To be more exact, there are 2.3 times as many firearms suicides as murders. Is there a preference for firearms as a method?

Suicide comes up in every gun debate because people (including yourself) like to post links regarding gun deaths. Accident, murder or *suicide*, anyone dying from a gun shot becomes a gun death statistic. And yeah, there are people, usually American 2nd Amendment defenders (yourself, again) who don't think suicides should count as a gun death stat. Yet the simple, undeniable truth is that actual cause of death was a gun shot - the bottom line.

The firearms death toll in Australia is mostly suicides, too. A link I posted in one of those other gun threads showed (for memory) that there were some 231 dun deaths in Australia in about 2010 (population 23 mill). And some 160ish were suicides - around 2/3rds of the total. Accidents and murders were about 16 apiece and the 30 odd remaining were designated "other", whatever tha hell that means....

For memory from someone else's links, gun shot suicides in the US were also about 2/3rds of the total - or similar ratio to the Aus stats. But the BIG difference is the actual totals. US has 15 times our population but your 20,000ish gun shot suicides is exponentially more than 15 times our 160ish total.


quote:

So overall, the data show that people do not predominantly choose a firearm as their choice of method over a collection of other means. And while the suicide rate increases with age for both sexes, suicide by any means is overwhelmingly a male phenomenon.

Up to a point, I agree that suicide by gun isn't really an issue about guns. After Australia's gun reforms emanating from Port Arthur, some of the nonsensical arguments bandied about was that the suicide rate would drop because of less gun availability. Apparently we were to believe that there are people who, upon finding a gun carelessly stored in a closet etc, would seize the moment and decide to spontaneously check out. Such was the anti-gun hysterics of the time, this is the kinda shit that actually got serious press time because some quack with an alphabet soup after his name said so.

If anything, the overall suicide rate has increased slightly since 1996 (Port Arthur reforms), but I think that's more a reflection of the age we live in. ie, people are sposta be more stressed, life is infinitely faster paced than years gone by, people aren't as friendly, all manner of designer drugs, cyber-bullying even - pressure, pressure, pressure!

Now, where I do think guns play a unique role in suicides is in the US. Means and opportunity. The far greater gun availability the 2nd amendment enables Americans means that, compared to all the other western nations, those determined to kill themself can far more readily choose to exit by gun. And I think THAT's why your gun suicide totals are exponentially higher than here.


quote:

People have a right to die if they choose to, by any means they choose, including a firearm, and without owing anybody an explanation.

Well, sort of.... The heartbreak of suicide is of the loved ones left behind. My father killed himself when I was 12 and the "why" question haunts you for years and years. I still don't know, not really.... Terminally ill and no prospects of recovering etc, yeah, you should have the right to die. And those closest to you will mostly understand. It's not about life but *quality* of life.


quote:

Guns and suicide are not the problem.

Say what????

You are 41 times more likely to die by gun in the US than you are in Australia. Damned right you've got a problem there!

Cues Bama to point out that you're "only" about 8 times more likely to die by gun of your own hand.... Either way, means and opportunity is absolutely a problem - of the 2nd's making.

Focus.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 5:34:58 AM   
daedricrelic


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< Message edited by daedricrelic -- 4/10/2013 5:36:19 AM >

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 7:04:08 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I get it, but it is a circular problem. Your sanity is always brought into question when you are suicidal. So, how do you make that determination of sound mind? Most suicides are not someone who have acute mental disease like schizophrenia. They are often normal people facing everything from, death, public outcast, to failure. I think they do know what they are choosing. Let's face it, in most cases it is a bad idea and they can get past it. But that is why I said we should make every resource available to them to prevent that decision. But in my support for freedom, I don't think it is appropriate to force someone to live. Maybe that means once less dumbass picks up a gun and takes out a school. Let them keep the body count to one.


We are in agreement on this. Yes, being suicidal is seen as not being of sound mind, but I think "vee haff our vays" (yes, I'm dorky enough to actually say it like that in person, just because.. lol) of telling if someone is putting rational thought behind that choice. If someone is truly choosing to get off the merry-go-round, then I do believe they have the right to make that choice. But, I still believe we have a duty to make sure they are considering everything, and help if they want that.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to FunCouple5280)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/10/2013 7:13:26 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Does a person have a right to end his or her life? How big a problem is suicide?
Obviously not the biggest bad guy on the block. But suicide counts come up in almost every gun debate. In fact, the firearms death toll in United States is mostly suicides. To be more exact, there are 2.3 times as many firearms suicides as murders. Is there a preference for firearms as a method?

Suicide comes up in every gun debate because people (including yourself) like to post links regarding gun deaths. Accident, murder or *suicide*, anyone dying from a gun shot becomes a gun death statistic. And yeah, there are people, usually American 2nd Amendment defenders (yourself, again) who don't think suicides should count as a gun death stat. Yet the simple, undeniable truth is that actual cause of death was a gun shot - the bottom line.
The firearms death toll in Australia is mostly suicides, too. A link I posted in one of those other gun threads showed (for memory) that there were some 231 dun deaths in Australia in about 2010 (population 23 mill). And some 160ish were suicides - around 2/3rds of the total. Accidents and murders were about 16 apiece and the 30 odd remaining were designated "other", whatever tha hell that means....
For memory from someone else's links, gun shot suicides in the US were also about 2/3rds of the total - or similar ratio to the Aus stats. But the BIG difference is the actual totals. US has 15 times our population but your 20,000ish gun shot suicides is exponentially more than 15 times our 160ish total.
quote:

So overall, the data show that people do not predominantly choose a firearm as their choice of method over a collection of other means. And while the suicide rate increases with age for both sexes, suicide by any means is overwhelmingly a male phenomenon.

Up to a point, I agree that suicide by gun isn't really an issue about guns. After Australia's gun reforms emanating from Port Arthur, some of the nonsensical arguments bandied about was that the suicide rate would drop because of less gun availability. Apparently we were to believe that there are people who, upon finding a gun carelessly stored in a closet etc, would seize the moment and decide to spontaneously check out. Such was the anti-gun hysterics of the time, this is the kinda shit that actually got serious press time because some quack with an alphabet soup after his name said so.
If anything, the overall suicide rate has increased slightly since 1996 (Port Arthur reforms), but I think that's more a reflection of the age we live in. ie, people are sposta be more stressed, life is infinitely faster paced than years gone by, people aren't as friendly, all manner of designer drugs, cyber-bullying even - pressure, pressure, pressure!
Now, where I do think guns play a unique role in suicides is in the US. Means and opportunity. The far greater gun availability the 2nd amendment enables Americans means that, compared to all the other western nations, those determined to kill themself can far more readily choose to exit by gun. And I think THAT's why your gun suicide totals are exponentially higher than here.
quote:

People have a right to die if they choose to, by any means they choose, including a firearm, and without owing anybody an explanation.

Well, sort of.... The heartbreak of suicide is of the loved ones left behind. My father killed himself when I was 12 and the "why" question haunts you for years and years. I still don't know, not really.... Terminally ill and no prospects of recovering etc, yeah, you should have the right to die. And those closest to you will mostly understand. It's not about life but *quality* of life.
quote:

Guns and suicide are not the problem.

Say what????
You are 41 times more likely to die by gun in the US than you are in Australia. Damned right you've got a problem there!
Cues Bama to point out that you're "only" about 8 times more likely to die by gun of your own hand.... Either way, means and opportunity is absolutely a problem - of the 2nd's making.
Focus.


How do you reconcile th1s statement:
    quote:

    For memory from someone else's links, gun shot suicides in the US were also about 2/3rds of the total - or similar ratio to the Aus stats. But the BIG difference is the actual totals. US has 15 times our population but your 20,000ish gun shot suicides is exponentially more than 15 times our 160ish total

    with this:
    quote:

    Up to a point, I agree that suicide by gun isn't really an issue about guns.


To be honest, including suicides by firearm in "gun violence" is technically true, but it's also misleading. What is being said is that suicide by gun is worse than suicide by any other means.

Do gun violence stats include people shot by the police?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 20
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