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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 8:00:56 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Again Focus you have to read. As I said in my post the availability of guns in the US make them the tool of choice. There is no argument there.

However, eliminating them will not lower the suicide rate, just won't. When you come to that conclusion it is so personal and deep, you are going to do whatever is necessary to make it work.


ummm.. that is not always true.. at one time I considered suicide (when i was in my 20s) and my method of choice was to use an od of pills.. I would not do it any other way.. I considered jumping out of my hirise apartment (ick.. too messy).. I considered jumping in front of a bus (ick.. too messy).. I considered using a gun (ick.. too messy & no access to a gun anyway).. so pills were the only way i would do it.. the problem was that I didnt have any pills since I was not a hypochondriac with a stash of potent prescription meds to od on.. and suicide for me meant if i waited 5 or 10 minutes the suicidal feeling would pass, well enough to not ever go to a doctor and fake some illness to get the drugs to od on.. so in my case, no access meant I could/would not commit suicide.. I would go on to say that I am sure I am not the only person who wont do it if they cant do it in the way they want..

So I would say if you eliminate access to guns you will likely reduce the number of suicides.. that wont eliminate all suicides tho..

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 9:06:43 AM   
Powergamz1


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Status: offline 		I don't think it's played out that way in Japan, Belgium, and other low gun culture nations... still high suicide rates.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

...So I would say if you eliminate access to guns you will likely reduce the number of suicides.. that wont eliminate all suicides tho..



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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 9:38:59 AM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		easy to say since you dont know how many suicides were prevented.. its hard to prove something that didnt happen than to prove what did happen.. I just know for me, lack of access did prevent mine.. and logic says i cant have been the only one.. I would say that its other societal factors that are causing people to commit suicide even in the absence of access to guns.. who knows how much higher the rate would be if there was the same easy access to guns there as in the US..
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

I don't think it's played out that way in Japan, Belgium, and other low gun culture nations... still high suicide rates.
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

...So I would say if you eliminate access to guns you will likely reduce the number of suicides.. that wont eliminate all suicides tho..





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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 10:28:28 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

easy to say since you dont know how many suicides were prevented.. its hard to prove something that didnt happen than to prove what did happen..


Be careful with that, you might hurt some people's head with that sort of logical thinking, might give them such a headache with it they might contemplate suicide or something ...

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 10:35:53 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
However, eliminating them will not lower the suicide rate, just won't. When you come to that conclusion it is so personal and deep, you are going to do whatever is necessary to make it work.

Exactly. My brother's fiance proved that point. She kept trying until she succeeded.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 11:34:42 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

I'm pro-death, so I struggle to find the down side in suicide. If a person is serious enough about not wanting to live that they try to commit suicide, it's only polite to let them. Generally speaking, prospective suicides have shitty lives, mental problems, have agonized for endless hours over social and religious concerns, etc. They really have gone through a lot of effort arriving at the decision to end it all. They deserve to succeed!



None of that is true in my case, or any of my family. You may have diabetes or cardiac problems in your family medical history. I have suicide and mood disorders in mine.

I can assure you that I was top of my class, no abuse, lots of support. My life, looked at impartially at age 12, was anything but shitty.

No social or religious agonizing.

Just bad genetics at a time prior to the development of SSRIs.

It finally lifted in my 20s and returned 20 some years later. Again a good life, no financial stress, some marital problems but that's hardly unique. I spent three days contemplating closing the garage door with the car still running before I recognized what I was thinking.
I went to my doctor the next day and was given a starter pack of Zoloft. 24 hours later the suicidal ideation had lifted.

Brain chemical dysfunction in exactly the same way that body chemical malfunctions cause diabetics to get shaky and pass out if it's been too long since they ate.




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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 11:50:03 AM   
Focus50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Again Focus you have to read. As I said in my post the availability of guns in the US make them the tool of choice. There is no argument there.

However, eliminating them will not lower the suicide rate, just won't. When you come to that conclusion it is so personal and deep, you are going to do whatever is necessary to make it work.

I don't know why you obsess over this notion that the existence makes a person want to kill themselves. It is utter nonsense.


Yeah, I hafta read; me! <sheesh>



Focus.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 1:30:39 PM   
SadistDave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP


You don't think that being given drugs to control your suicidal urges is indicative of mental illness?

Interesting...

-SD-

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 1:33:03 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Sorry focus, but whether or not guns are available doesn't impact the rate of suicide. Numerous studies both in the US and abroad on the impact of gun laws and suicide show no significant change in the rate of suicide. If guns are available, it is the method of choice because of its speed and reliability in getting the job done. But, if they aren't available, it just doesn't change one's mind, just the method of action.


I'd be surprised if that were entirely the case. In England there are ten attempted suicides for every one suicide that's 'successful'. For reasons that shouldn't need to be stated people are often (though not always, note) not in a cool and reasoning state of mind when they attempt suicide. They don't always choose the method that is fastest, most reliable and most likely to 'get the job done'.

Emotions can overwhelm reason. People attempting suicide can be angry, so pick a method that expresses that anger. The suicide is 'violence against oneself' in all senses of the phrase. A gun might therefore fit the bill whereas pills may not. More generally emotions can be conflicted and, at the moment of killing oneself, it just happens that the desire for death has achieved a temporary primacy over all desire to stay alive.

Whatever: here in England, at least, the idea of an attempted - but 'botched' - suicide actually being a 'cry for help' is pretty commonplace.

Any time that the gun debate comes up, in any context, I'm always taken aback by just how unquestioned the view so often is that means have no bearing on ends whatsoever - that the desire to do something always precedes working out how one is going to do it.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 4/11/2013 1:44:52 PM >

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 1:44:58 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

I'm always taken aback by just how unquestioned the view so often is... that the desire to do something always precedes working out how one is going to do it.

You think maybe sometimes it comes after?



K.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/11/2013 1:45:23 PM >

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 1:49:59 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

You think maybe sometimes it comes after?



Yup, cute cartoons aside, I certainly do. Hell's bells, K, it'd take a stone age understanding of psychology to suggest otherwise.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 1:58:29 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		National suicide rates


Really the suicide rate in the US and UK are statistically identical and both are only 20% higher than in Australia. So despite drastic differences in gun laws people feel the need to snuff it in about the same numbers.

Here in the US many more people attempt suicide unsuccessfully than are successful as well like in the UK. a cry for help is as common here as it is there.

A debate on suicide should be devoid of the methods used. The psychosis really is the issue. While the method may express the emotions they are feeling, they often do not as well. I have known 2 people in my life who attempted suicide and one who was successful. The attempts were both massive doses of over the counter meds, pretty much low risk stuff. And they called and said they were doing it, so very much a cry for help/attention. The successful one was a massive dose of prescription opiates, mixed with a ton of booze (pretty much a sure thing). He told no one and was found 3 days later. He made up his mind, wrote a note, and got to it. All cases were people capable of violence with access to firearms.




quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Sorry focus, but whether or not guns are available doesn't impact the rate of suicide. Numerous studies both in the US and abroad on the impact of gun laws and suicide show no significant change in the rate of suicide. If guns are available, it is the method of choice because of its speed and reliability in getting the job done. But, if they aren't available, it just doesn't change one's mind, just the method of action.


I'd be surprised if that were entirely the case. In England there are ten attempted suicides for every one suicide that's 'successful'. For reasons that shouldn't need to be stated people after often (though not always, note) not in a cool and reasoning state of mind when they attempt suicide. They don't always choose the method that is fastest, most reliable and most likely to 'get the job done'.

Emotions can overwhelm reason. People attempting suicide can be angry, so pick a method that expresses that anger. The suicide is 'violence against oneself' in all senses of the phrase. A gun might therefore fit the bill whereas pills may not. More generally emotions can be conflicted and, at the moment of killing oneself, it just happens that the desire for death has achieved a temporary primacy over all desire to stay alive.

Whatever: here in England, at least, the idea of an attempted - but 'botched' - suicide actually being a 'cry for help' is pretty commonplace.

Any time that the gun debate comes up, in any context, I'm always taken aback by just how unquestioned the view so often is that means have no bearing on ends whatsoever - that the desire to do something always precedes working out how one is going to do it.


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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:09:09 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Hell's bells, K, it'd take a stone age understanding of psychology to suggest otherwise.

Pray explain this to me simply, as if unto a stone-age child.

K.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:12:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

A debate on suicide should be devoid of the methods used.



As per my last post, I think this view is utterly wrong.

I've known four suicide attempts that have resulted in death and one attempted suicide that didn't. That last one involved a friend of mine, still alive, and regretting that she even tried to commit suicide - as she always has done, for the ten years since she came out of hospital.

What stopped her 'succeeding' in killing herself was a rule here that prevents chemists selling more than sixteen paracetamol to one customer per visit. She went to another chemist but, it was late at night, and this chemist was closed. So she tried with just sixteen pills. They didn't work, obviously. She lay in bed, and an hour later, thought, 'Fuck, I don't want to die' - and went off to hospital - on foot.

That rule - sixteen paracetamol only - is thought by many to be silly. (Hell, before I heard her story, *I* thought it was silly.) But it saved my friend's life and she's never thought of attempting suicide again. So I have a certain motivation not to trust the idea of 'where there's a will there's a way' as some iron law of psychology anymore.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:17:24 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Pray explain this to me simply, as if unto a stone-age child.



What, through the medium of cartoons? Not sure if I can do that.




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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:19:19 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		Yet the effect on suicide rate is negligible....

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:21:53 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Yet the effect on suicide rate is negligible....


Sorry, the effect of what on suicide rates?

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:22:45 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		The effect of laws making certain things available or not

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:28:00 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

The effect of laws making certain things available or not


It wasn't negligible in the case of my friend. The simple law preventing sale of more than sixteen paracetamol pills per customer per visit to chemist is the reason she's alive today.

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RE: Guns and Suicide - 4/11/2013 2:36:24 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Status: offline 		I understand you have some anecdotal evidence, and I have mine, but in the end broad population statistics just don't support such assumptions for either of us.

I think any law concerned with the method of suicide is too reactive and not proactive. Identifying and helping someone before they even try is infinitely more effective than trying to create and arbitrary road block. I remember my University, like clock work 2-4 students killed themselves every year. This was despite suicide proof windows and other various restrictions Every couple of years it seemed they tried something new, but the numbers held.

Yet if you needed counseling, they limited you to five sessions and made no concessions for anyone.. Hardly enough for someone dealing with major psychological issues. I guess it was cheaper to install limiters on windows and restrict prescriptions etc....

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