RE: Cops and Guns (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 3:23:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why would you say we have an increasingly lawless society?



Because over 4.5 million people got their homes stolen from them, over 8 million lost their jobs, the US Treasury has sent out two or three trillion to the banks (coming out of your and my paycheck) in payment for accomplishment of all the above, and the major perpetrators still roam free among us. And Phill Gramm and Barney Frank are still not serving life terms, an immense injustice to the US and the world.

That's why.




Edwynn -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 3:46:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Survey of 15,000 Law Enforcement Professionals about U.S. Gun Control Policies

The survey, which was conducted in early March 2013, received 15,000 responses from law enforcement professionals... Response percentages varied only slightly when analyzed by rank and department size. Among the results:
    • 86 percent feel the currently proposed legislation would have no effect or a negative effect on improving officer safety

    • Similarly, 92 percent feel that banning semi-automatic firearms, or “assault weapons,” would have no effect or a negative effect on reducing violent crime

    • Demonstrating the opinion that the best way to combat gun crime is through harsher punishment, 91 percent said the use of a firearm while perpetrating a crime should lead to a stiff, mandatory sentence with no plea bargains. Likewise, 59 percent believe increasing punishment severity for unlicensed dealers would reduce crime

    • 71 percent support law enforcement leaders who have publicly refused to enforce more restrictive gun laws within their jurisdictions

    • 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable

    • Likewise, 80 percent feel that legally-armed citizens would likely have reduced the number of casualties in recent mass shooting incidents
I think the results of this survey and the experience of the officers of all ranks who participated deserve serious consideration, both by those whose minds are not yet made up, and especially by those who ridicule these views and insult anyone who holds them.

K.



What have the police to say about the sudden phenomenal increase in boarded-up houses and shuttered schools all across the country these last few years? Nothing about the increase in crime engendered by such open repudiation of a government to its own society?

Nothing?

Oh that's right, that question wasn't presented, was it?

Well in any case, it's a good thing that to know that the questionnaire wasn't carefully designed and crafted by statistical and polling professionals, with all due respect to their knowledge and well learned skills that particular phrasing of a question provides the desired distortion, who were paid good money to achieve a desired outcome, or anything like that.

Or do we know this?








Hillwilliam -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 6:20:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Why would you say we have an increasingly lawless society?



Because over 4.5 million people got their homes stolen from them, over 8 million lost their jobs, the US Treasury has sent out two or three trillion to the banks (coming out of your and my paycheck) in payment for accomplishment of all the above, and the major perpetrators still roam free among us. And Phill Gramm and Barney Frank are still not serving life terms, an immense injustice to the US and the world.

That's why.


Same shit that's been going on for 5 centuries. It's just different victims this time.




Zonie63 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 6:44:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If this analysis has merit, and I believe it does, then the obvious answer is to dismantle the ghetto system,which acts as a training ground and location for much of the US's violent crime. That entails racially integrated suburbs, schools, social institutions etc - the kinds of things that the so-called ‘White Flight’ phenomenon sought to avoid.

It won’t be cheap. But will thousands dying annually and millions incarcerated can the US afford not to do it?



That's the main problem. It won't be cheap and it would probably involve challenging a number of sacred cows which will never be challenged by either major party. I don't think the ghetto system will be dismantled very easily, since there are too many people who benefit from the status quo.

The stats show that violent crime is going down, as others have mentioned, but I haven't found any firm consensus as to why that might be. Crime spiked during the 1960s, 70s, and 80s, but started to go down in the 1990s and 2000s. Perhaps it was due to a society getting fed up with crime and imposing more security measures for their own safety. We started seeing neighborhood watch programs start up, bars on windows, car alarms, surveillance cameras, shoplifting detectors, gated communities, security guards everywhere.

The public clamored for more cops, tougher courts, stiffer sentencing guidelines (e.g. "three strikes" rule), and a higher incarceration rate. The execution rate also started to go up during the 1980s and 90s. A lot of juvenile delinquents were "scared straight" or put into boot camps so that they might shape up. Schools installed metal detectors, hired guards. There was also gang outreach, more social workers, and honest attempts to try to steer would-be criminals and delinquents to stay in school and better their lives.

I think society has tried to deal with the problem to some extent, but there's only so much that the PTB want to do. At this point, there's also a question whether they can even afford to keep doing what they've been doing.

In all frankness, I don't think the powers that be truly care about the thousands who die annually or the millions who are incarcerated. Public apathy is probably the biggest problem we face, since a lot of people just plain don't care about anyone but themselves. People want guns because they don't think the police or the government are either able or willing to protect them. They can't count on their neighbors anymore.

Those who feel alienated, disaffected, and don't think they can count on anyone but themselves - they can easily cross the line into criminality. They already see the rich and powerful as criminals already, so they believe they're just grabbing their fair share. They don't believe they'll be treated justly or fairly by the system (and they're probably because most of the public doesn't give a shit), so they're just going to go for what they can get and maybe they might get away with it. They don't give a shit either - and they don't have anything to lose. So, that's what society is up against, but I think most people are okay with it just as long as it doesn't affect them and doesn't happen in their backyards.





DesideriScuri -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 7:33:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Even in our smaller cities, there's almost inevitably a "part of town" that people avoid if they can. The determinants of violent crime are socioeconomic and cultural. But it's the cultural factor that determines how people will respond to socioeconomic inequalities, and the violent sub-cultures that exist in these communities must own the results. Personally, I don't know how to help them. Money hasn't worked. And New York City's gun laws are easily among the most restrictive in the country.

At last a comment that suggests some thought went into it rather than the cliche-ridden vitriol and outright falsifications that I've learnt to expect from some gun nuts.
If this analysis has merit, and I believe it does, then the obvious answer is to dismantle the ghetto system,which acts as a training ground and location for much of the US's violent crime. That entails racially integrated suburbs, schools, social institutions etc - the kinds of things that the so-called ‘White Flight’ phenomenon sought to avoid.

[sm=hewah.gif]

quote:

It won’t be cheap. But will thousands dying annually and millions incarcerated can the US afford not to do it?


Um, that won't fly by our Constitution, I'm thinking. The exodus to the suburbs isn't anything more than attempting to have a better life. When my ex and I went to the 'burbs, it wasn't about getting away from blacks, hispanics, etc. We lived in a relatively nice neighborhood within the city limits. The number of burglaries was trending upwards (very slowly, but still upwards), but "escaping" that was more a side effect rather than the main goal. The neighborhood the kids and ex still live in has a greater minority population than the city neighborhood we lived in. The minority population is probably still only 30%, but I'm not even sure if the old neighborhood had any at all (unless you consider the one household that was of Middle Eastern descent as a minority). I'm pretty sure their current neighborhood has all minorities represented.

Still simply mixing the pot and integrating everyone isn't going to work in the long run. There will always be somewhere that offers a more desirable locale than another, and that's where people will seek to go. And, with an increased demand for that area, the cost of living in that area will increase, which will then have the same segregation results.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 9:07:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

I wonder why all 400,000 of them didnt respond?


All 400,000 members of that site are not necessarily law enforcement. You do not have to be law enforcement to be a member of that site. The survey indicates that only members that are law enforcement were allowed to participate in the poll. The site confirms the law enforcement status of anyone who registers as law enforcement.




Huruma -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 9:31:10 AM)

Actually it just plain hard to get the cops out of the donut shop!




Powergamz1 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 6:03:08 PM)

And out of the 700,000 sworn cops in America you personally 'know' exactly how many? 10? 50? 150?
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I really don't care what a survey of cops say, knowing so many as I do, until such a time as I can carry a gun and draw it on a cop or taze them for being agressive, loudmouth motherfuckers, who are resisting.........fuck em.





LizDeluxe -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 8:57:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

• 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable


I was surprised by this figure. I only know a few cops personally but each of them would be in the 9% who oppose this. They do not oppose the legal private ownership of firearms to be used in the home for protection but they fervently dislike concealed carry and/or having firearms in your vehicle. They basically each said it just makes their job tougher. Without concealed carry and vehicle carry their decision is a binary one - if you have a gun you're a bad guy. Concealed carry and vehicle carry cloud that decision.




Huruma -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/12/2013 11:14:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

• 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable


I was surprised by this figure. I only know a few cops personally but each of them would be in the 9% who oppose this. They do not oppose the legal private ownership of firearms to be used in the home for protection but they fervently dislike concealed carry and/or having firearms in your vehicle. They basically each said it just makes their job tougher. Without concealed carry and vehicle carry their decision is a binary one - if you have a gun you're a bad guy. Concealed carry and vehicle carry cloud that decision.


FBI Statistics on police killed interesting, the number of those killed in the line of duty is up

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2011-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted




LizDeluxe -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/13/2013 5:01:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Huruma


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

• 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable


I was surprised by this figure. I only know a few cops personally but each of them would be in the 9% who oppose this. They do not oppose the legal private ownership of firearms to be used in the home for protection but they fervently dislike concealed carry and/or having firearms in your vehicle. They basically each said it just makes their job tougher. Without concealed carry and vehicle carry their decision is a binary one - if you have a gun you're a bad guy. Concealed carry and vehicle carry cloud that decision.


FBI Statistics on police killed interesting, the number of those killed in the line of duty is up

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2011-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted


That data isn't terribly relevant to the discussion. As I tried to explain to my police friends, by the time they find John Q. Public's legally owned firearm on his person or in his car the threat is negligible. Very often John Q. Public freely offers up that he is carrying or has a weapon in his possession. It's John Q. Criminal that they have to worry about and he has already fired upon them by that point.




PeonForHer -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/13/2013 11:58:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

• 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable


I was surprised by this figure.


Me too. I always wonder how US cops' nerves can stand it.

As a matter of interest, in real life, how do the cops there act when they pull over a driver for some offence or another? Are they on as much of a hair-trigger as they appear in the TV 'real life cop reports' that I've seen?




tj444 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/13/2013 2:34:56 PM)

FR-

I saw this today.. considering all the other shite the govt has in place to "protect America from terrorists".. you would think making it harder to get a gun would also be part of that.. Now, me not being an American means I have no say in the matter & I am ok with that.. I guess the cops from the survey dont think its a big deal but I just wonder how Americans feel about this dude in the vid and what he is telling nutbars in the USA to do..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpRQzTP8H1o
Jihad Joe: Adam Gadahn encourages American jihadists to buy guns

(this is the article I originally saw the vid reported on)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/newspaper-shows-easy-canadian-buy-gun-u-155858571.html




Huruma -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/13/2013 7:19:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Huruma


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

• 91 percent support the concealed carry of firearms by civilians who have not been convicted of a felony and/or have not been deemed psychologically incapable


I was surprised by this figure. I only know a few cops personally but each of them would be in the 9% who oppose this. They do not oppose the legal private ownership of firearms to be used in the home for protection but they fervently dislike concealed carry and/or having firearms in your vehicle. They basically each said it just makes their job tougher. Without concealed carry and vehicle carry their decision is a binary one - if you have a gun you're a bad guy. Concealed carry and vehicle carry cloud that decision.


FBI Statistics on police killed interesting, the number of those killed in the line of duty is up

http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-2011-statistics-on-law-enforcement-officers-killed-and-assaulted


That data isn't terribly relevant to the discussion. As I tried to explain to my police friends, by the time they find John Q. Public's legally owned firearm on his person or in his car the threat is negligible. Very often John Q. Public freely offers up that he is carrying or has a weapon in his possession. It's John Q. Criminal that they have to worry about and he has already fired upon them by that point.


I would really question your view point. As the FBI have reported killings are up, as the report shows 11 police officers were involved in performing traffic pursuits/stops, seven police officers were answering disturbance calls, more than likely at a home and five of the slain officers were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances. I seriously doubt that many John Q freely offer the information before anything. I would suspect that most officers approach the situation with a sense that someone has a gun.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/13/2013 10:08:33 PM)

Did you seriously just make the ridiculous assertion the 14K+ cops in the survey must be in favor of whackos killing Jews, because they don't mirror your political opinions?

Objectify much?





quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR-

I saw this today.. considering all the other shite the govt has in place to "protect America from terrorists".. you would think making it harder to get a gun would also be part of that.. Now, me not being an American means I have no say in the matter & I am ok with that.. I guess the cops from the survey dont think its a big deal but I just wonder how Americans feel about this dude in the vid and what he is telling nutbars in the USA to do..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpRQzTP8H1o
Jihad Joe: Adam Gadahn encourages American jihadists to buy guns

(this is the article I originally saw the vid reported on)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/newspaper-shows-easy-canadian-buy-gun-u-155858571.html





LizDeluxe -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/14/2013 6:15:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huruma
I would really question your view point. As the FBI have reported killings are up, as the report shows 11 police officers were involved in performing traffic pursuits/stops, seven police officers were answering disturbance calls, more than likely at a home and five of the slain officers were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances. I seriously doubt that many John Q freely offer the information before anything. I would suspect that most officers approach the situation with a sense that someone has a gun.


Every police officer should approach every traffic stop from the standpoint the the person he is stopping is armed and ready to shoot him. That's the catch. The gun owner who is armed to protect himself from crime isn't going around randomly shooting cops at traffic stops. The FBI reports killings are up but they don't report that killings are up because cops are being shot by armed soccer moms and accountants. You appear unable to separate these two concepts.

You're probably right about offering up information. Some concealed carry advocacy group suggest informing the officer straight up about the presence of a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. If I was stopped I personally wouldn't tell the cop I had a gun in the car unless he specifically asked me. It may not even become an issue and it saves me the headache of dealing with a Barney Fife.




Huruma -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/14/2013 7:32:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huruma
I would really question your view point. As the FBI have reported killings are up, as the report shows 11 police officers were involved in performing traffic pursuits/stops, seven police officers were answering disturbance calls, more than likely at a home and five of the slain officers were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances. I seriously doubt that many John Q freely offer the information before anything. I would suspect that most officers approach the situation with a sense that someone has a gun.


Every police officer should approach every traffic stop from the standpoint the the person he is stopping is armed and ready to shoot him. That's the catch. The gun owner who is armed to protect himself from crime isn't going around randomly shooting cops at traffic stops. The FBI reports killings are up but they don't report that killings are up because cops are being shot by armed soccer moms and accountants. You appear unable to separate these two concepts.

You're probably right about offering up information. Some concealed carry advocacy group suggest informing the officer straight up about the presence of a firearm on your person or in your vehicle. If I was stopped I personally wouldn't tell the cop I had a gun in the car unless he specifically asked me. It may not even become an issue and it saves me the headache of dealing with a Barney Fife.


I have experience in Domestic violence cases. The person being investigate never tells anyone about their guns. We usually got the information from another person. Another thing was we never entered the home, not until the people inside came out and we searched them. You seem to lack any evidence of your view, it just assumptions and you comments show some bias.




LizDeluxe -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/14/2013 10:04:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Huruma
I have experience in Domestic violence cases. The person being investigate never tells anyone about their guns. We usually got the information from another person. Another thing was we never entered the home, not until the people inside came out and we searched them. You seem to lack any evidence of your view, it just assumptions and you comments show some bias.


Did the Barney Fife reference offend you? I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.




tj444 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/14/2013 11:43:44 AM)

wtf did you get that from? I never said anywhere that the cops in the survey "must be in favor of whackos killing Jews".. why dont you stop putting your words in other posters mouths.. I have seen you try that shite with other posters also..
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just make the ridiculous assertion the 14K+ cops in the survey must be in favor of whackos killing Jews, because they don't mirror your political opinions?

Objectify much?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR-

I saw this today.. considering all the other shite the govt has in place to "protect America from terrorists".. you would think making it harder to get a gun would also be part of that.. Now, me not being an American means I have no say in the matter & I am ok with that.. I guess the cops from the survey dont think its a big deal but I just wonder how Americans feel about this dude in the vid and what he is telling nutbars in the USA to do..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpRQzTP8H1o
Jihad Joe: Adam Gadahn encourages American jihadists to buy guns

(this is the article I originally saw the vid reported on)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/newspaper-shows-easy-canadian-buy-gun-u-155858571.html







Powergamz1 -> RE: Cops and Guns (4/14/2013 12:14:29 PM)

Spare me the evasions... here are your exact words on topic of the video... I guess the cops from the survey dont think its a big deal ...

And in the video, the speaker specifically calls for killing Jews and their brethren.

Had you answered with some sort of explanation that it wasn't what you meant, I could have seen that. That's why I asked a question, instead of making an accusation.

But when your response is to simply deny that you said what anyone can scroll up and see that you said, that makes it look like another one of your long string of polemic games, which I refuse to play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

wtf did you get that from? I never said anywhere that the cops in the survey "must be in favor of whackos killing Jews".. why dont you stop putting your words in other posters mouths.. I have seen you try that shite with other posters also..
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Did you seriously just make the ridiculous assertion the 14K+ cops in the survey must be in favor of whackos killing Jews, because they don't mirror your political opinions?

Objectify much?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

FR-

I saw this today.. considering all the other shite the govt has in place to "protect America from terrorists".. you would think making it harder to get a gun would also be part of that.. Now, me not being an American means I have no say in the matter & I am ok with that.. I guess the cops from the survey dont think its a big deal but I just wonder how Americans feel about this dude in the vid and what he is telling nutbars in the USA to do..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EpRQzTP8H1o
Jihad Joe: Adam Gadahn encourages American jihadists to buy guns

(this is the article I originally saw the vid reported on)
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/canada-politics/newspaper-shows-easy-canadian-buy-gun-u-155858571.html









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