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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:19:03 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Maybe the questions related as to why?

CNN is saying just now those questions would be related to any addition IEDs out there, etc.

I didn't get to stay too close to the tv today to watch this all unfold. What little I did see, sure does look like those various law enforcement agencies were working together and doing their best to protect citizens. It's good to see members of the public cheering the efforts.

By the way, stef, LOVED the boat ad.


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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:25:10 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Yeah LP.....CNN just explained that rather nicely....and it does seem rather like a slam dunk,without relying on any possible statements...Miranda does seem just a bit of overkill in this case anyway doesn't it....lol.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:44:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

Maybe he ran over him,on foot,in making his escape


The last I heard he did run over his brother and drove 5 blocks away then abandoned the vehicle and escaped on foot.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:49:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

I have a problem with this whole, not reading him his rights thing. The right to refuse to incriminate himself doesn't come off a little card in the cop's pocket. It comes from the Bill of Rights, and this murderous little shit is a citizen of these United States. If he says, no, he will not answer questions while in police custody, and wants a lawyer, the foundational principles of our nation demand that we respect that right.

I think Lindsay Graham is right. The solution is not exercise some lawyerized exception to the 5th Amendment, but to classify him as an enemy combatent, at least until we can clearly establish otherwise. Then fill the water pitcher as needed, until we are certain some cousin or comrade isn't still out there, with more pressure cookers.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:53:56 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I have a problem with this whole, not reading him his rights thing. The right to refuse to incriminate himself doesn't come off a little card in the cop's pocket. It comes from the Bill of Rights, and this murderous little shit is a citizen of these United States. If he says, no, he will not answer questions while in police custody, and wants a lawyer, the foundational principles of our nation demand that we respect that right.

I think Lindsay Graham is right. The solution is not exercise some lawyerized exception to the 5th Amendment, but to classify him as an enemy combatent, at least until we can clearly establish otherwise. Then fill the water pitcher as needed, until we are certain some cousin or comrade isn't still out there, with more pressure cookers.

A mind boggling contradiction. He is an American citizen and so due his Miranda but it's okay to classify him as an enemy combatant and torture him. Going over the edge there, Rich

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:55:15 PM   
ChasteBoyy


Posts: 1
Joined: 10/10/2012
Status: offline 		the little 8 year old wasn't read any rights.....eye for an eye...and fast!

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 7:56:41 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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The Investigative Project on Terrorism has published a translation of a video that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev posted to the net.

Translation
Video

It's some pretty wild shit.

K.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 8:04:36 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

If one official's comments represent the standards of professionalism in an entire culture, you might wish to review your sampling techniques. Or perhaps your own presuppositions are clouding your usually keen perception.


I see I should've been more explicit.

I'm commenting on four main elements here. First, that someone in the force made a comment to the media of this nature, regardless of its veracity and the person's position. Second, that the newspaper did not critique this statement, implying that it is acceptable to them, which implies that it's acceptable to their readership (not the whole US). Third, that I haven't seen police or other officials critique the statement, or assure us that it's incorrect or at least out of place. Fourth, and this one is indeed on shaky grounds, the contents of the statement, which I hope you'll agree are somewhat unfortunate as far as professionalism goes.

Nowhere am I generalizing to the culture of the whole US, which is a huge and diverse country, with several cultures.

I hope that makes things clearer.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

Indeed it does. Thank you for the clarification. The official's statement was stupid, no doubt. Newspaper reports in the midst of a fast breaking story do not critique statements very well. That is often left for the Opinion pages that follow. It really implies nothing about the readers. It just reflects journalism in America. Perhaps in Norway as well. I don't know. There is Reporting and then there is Editorializing. We do not expect opinon in Reporting. Just the facts and quotes as accurately as possible. Newspapers are often criticized for mixing the two.

ciao

< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/19/2013 8:05:44 PM >

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 8:27:33 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I don`t know,after Gramm`s miserable mishandling and abuse of the Benghazi attacks.....it`s prolly best that he and the other cons STFU.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/19/2013 8:28:23 PM >

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 8:43:48 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I have a problem with this whole, not reading him his rights thing. The right to refuse to incriminate himself doesn't come off a little card in the cop's pocket. It comes from the Bill of Rights, and this murderous little shit is a citizen of these United States. If he says, no, he will not answer questions while in police custody, and wants a lawyer, the foundational principles of our nation demand that we respect that right.


I emphatically agree. It's one of the few things we did right up here in the aftermath of the Oslo/Utøya attacks: sticking to due process, every step of the way. If that stuff only matters with people you like, it doesn't matter at all, and we may as well skip it and thus at least rid ourselves of hypocrisy. The reason why we put it on paper is to make sure it's clear to everyone where the line is, for cases like these, when we're sorely tempted to cross said line.

A classic example is when people want freedom of speech, but only for the speech they approve of. Freedom of speech is made for Holocaust deniers, people that advocate sex with minors, racists, misogynists, misandrists, and every other kind of offensive bastard that has nonsense to spew. And yes- hell, yes- it's made for jihadists. It's not for you and me. It's not for the stuff we can say in polite company without wrinkling noses or raising brows. It's for what we can't say without it. And amid all that garbage, we will find, on occasion, that one Martin Luther King, Jr., or the Ghandi, or the Jesus, or the Krishnamurti, or whathaveyou, those grains of gold that make it worthwhile to sift through all the mud in search of our future, our next great leap forward.

The rights that are accorded suspects, criminals, etc., are for the benefit of the one guy that gets nailed unjustly, for the benefit of our collective mental, emotional and spiritual health as human beings in recognizing humanity in others (lest we repeat their faults, the ones that tempt us to disregard their humanity or, in this case, their citizenry).

If we disregard that, we're animals, and no better than the bombers in the scheme of things.

In a military context, whatever Code you abide by is what distinguishes you as a soldier from a common, armed thug. In a civilian context, similar things hold. Any Code we adhere to only when it's easy, convenient, expedient, agreeable or otherwise within the realm of what any reasonable adult can be expected to follow it, is simply "the Code of what I was going to do anyway", and thus worse than worthless. There are exceptions, but those have to do with shortcomings of a Code, not willful disregard for its content founded on the outcome being distasteful or made on the spur of the moment.

So, yeah, I applaud what you say, agree with it enthusiastically, and probably best keep quiet as to what I think of the failure to respect the suspect's rights.

quote:

I think Lindsay Graham is right. The solution is not exercise some lawyerized exception to the 5th Amendment, but to classify him as an enemy combatent, at least until we can clearly establish otherwise. Then fill the water pitcher as needed, until we are certain some cousin or comrade isn't still out there, with more pressure cookers.


Which is why I'm not hugging you. But, hey, one out of two.

Really, you don't need to incentivize him to implicate the uncle that disavowed him; you need solid research and investigation that leads to facts. Right now, you have a suspect that seems a probable candidate for the bombings. It's a while off from "beyond reasonable doubt" yet, and that means he's still a citizen in every regard, which in turn means that it's time to get on with due process. That's what it's there for: to make sure the State doesn't accidentally get in the business of executing unpopular citizens, like in past witchhunts.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 8:53:45 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		That all sounds great...and noble...but when the police have to know if they placed bombs still not found that could kill and injure, maybe your son or daughter, then the ability to ask him questions outweighs his Miranda rights. This is accepted law within and in accordance with the Constitution of the US.

This just gives them the right to continue questioning him in a very narrow way concerning the location and or existence of the explosive devices. He can still refuse to answer but they can keep asking.

The law

"The police may question a suspect without reading Miranda warnings if such questioning is necessary for public safety"

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/19/2013 8:55:44 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 8:59:02 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		HERE is a link that goes into detail

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 9:04:03 PM   
Rule


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Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 9:34:15 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Indeed it does. Thank you for the clarification.


You're cordially welcome, of course.

quote:

The official's statement was stupid, no doubt.


On this, we're in perfect agreement, and I hope it's not indicative of a prevalent attitude among the police that were out there. Similarly, assuming owner59 correctly quoted Mike, that the pic posted earlier was released by a police officer that took it in the line of duty, I hope there will be wide agreement that a dishonorable discharge is the most lenient response that could be acceptable. Professionalism is incompatible with either of those attitudes, in my view, so I hope they are properly addressed and the points clarified by officials.

quote:

It just reflects journalism in America. Perhaps in Norway as well. I don't know.


Actually, I don't know, either. I've never seen such a statement made to the media by any official here. I've seen officials saying things that are a little out of line, usually politicians, but such statements are generally retracted with an apology, and nowhere near this severe (at least not if you exclude politicians; we have nutjobs in politics, too).

As a rule, most media will clearly label opinions, and extended commentary is always seperated from the reporting, but if such a statement were made by an official to the media here, it's likely that you would see a follow-up question about the attitude in the statement, which serves as an indicator that the interviewer found something unreasonable or questionable and thought the public would want to have some context for the answer.

But, again, hard to compare, as being eager for a fight would lead to immediate expulsion from the police force here, as we absolutely don't want any "cowboys" on the force. Hence, the media wouldn't need to comment, as official reactions would be coming in moments later. They'd probably call the relevant superiors for a comment on what was said, so that reaction would likely involve disciplinary measures.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to vincentML)
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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 9:39:09 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Where is this information coming from?
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I have a problem with this whole, not reading him his rights thing. The right to refuse to incriminate himself doesn't come off a little card in the cop's pocket. It comes from the Bill of Rights, and this murderous little shit is a citizen of these United States. If he says, no, he will not answer questions while in police custody, and wants a lawyer, the foundational principles of our nation demand that we respect that right.

I think Lindsay Graham is right. The solution is not exercise some lawyerized exception to the 5th Amendment, but to classify him as an enemy combatent, at least until we can clearly establish otherwise. Then fill the water pitcher as needed, until we are certain some cousin or comrade isn't still out there, with more pressure cookers.



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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 10:23:19 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

A mind boggling contradiction. He is an American citizen and so due his Miranda but it's okay to classify him as an enemy combatant and torture him. Going over the edge there, Rich



Welcome to the wonderful world of the gray area, Vince, where values come into conflict, and everything gets blurry. Enemy combatent is far from a perfect solution, but shit needs to get done, at least in the short term. I think it is better to remove him from the realm of civilian law, than to reinforce the idea that you don't have your rights, until the police decide to give them to you.

Got a better idea, that still gets us what we need? I'd love to hear it if you do.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 10:35:30 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Where is this information coming from?




Try Google.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/19/2013 11:14:53 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

That all sounds great...and noble...but when the police have to know if they placed bombs still not found that could kill and injure, maybe your son or daughter, then the ability to ask him questions outweighs his Miranda rights.


Let me be perfectly clear: if saving my loved ones is contingent on violating my values in an expedient manner, I may as well start grieving right away. The alternatives are (1) not having any values, or (2) not having any values, but pretending to anyway. I'm fairly certain that's an exhaustive listing of the possibilities, except rescinding moral agency, which falls under the first heading pretty much by definition.

Now, as you say, the subordination of rights to public safety has been codified, which I wasn't aware of earlier. Thanks for educating me on this point. We could debate the de/merits of such an exemption elsewhere, but I hope we can at least agree that one shouldn't be made up on the spot (which was my misunderstanding earlier), even if expedient, and also agree that the exemption means that the US only has this right when law enforcement feels like it's safe to accord it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/20/2013 3:37:14 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Why is it that those people who lead the clamour for strict enforcement of the law, and tough punishment of those who break the law, seem to be the first to advocate breaking the law when the heat is on?

One could be forgiven for concluding that these people feel the law is only for other people to obey.

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RE: Early Morning Chaos in Boston - 4/20/2013 4:12:09 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Where is this information coming from?
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I have a problem with this whole, not reading him his rights thing. The right to refuse to incriminate himself doesn't come off a little card in the cop's pocket. It comes from the Bill of Rights, and this murderous little shit is a citizen of these United States. If he says, no, he will not answer questions while in police custody, and wants a lawyer, the foundational principles of our nation demand that we respect that right.

I think Lindsay Graham is right. The solution is not exercise some lawyerized exception to the 5th Amendment, but to classify him as an enemy combatent, at least until we can clearly establish otherwise. Then fill the water pitcher as needed, until we are certain some cousin or comrade isn't still out there, with more pressure cookers.




I searched and only found that they haven't read him his miranda rights YET. Doesn't mean they won't, simply means they didn't do it on the scene, which is not required.

As for them delaying and asking him questions, if he answers about where other bombs may have been placed, then they can deal with those bombs, because it is an issue of public safety.

Regardless of whether he is Mirandized or not, all he has to do is say, "I want a lawyer" and all questioning must stop. I fail to see how this is stomping on his rights as a citizen. Which, by the way, he isn't a citizen, he is a resident. He was not born here, and I've heard nothing about either brother becoming a US citizen. That doesn't mean they are here illegally, just not US citizens.

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