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The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity


I watched. Sign me up for the SFTSOC.
  0% (0)
I watched. Interesting. I'd like to see more.
  46% (7)
I don't have to watch. I support the SFTSOC.
  0% (0)
I don't have to watch. Fuck the SFTSOC.
  53% (8)


Total Votes : 15


(last vote on : 4/23/2013 2:03:36 PM)
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The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 2:02:41 AM   
Kirata


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At a recent TEDx event, two talks provoked a few individuals to mount such a stunningly vituperative attack on the speakers and the event's sponsors that it wouldn't even be allowed to stand here in P&R. The backlash was overwhelming and immediate. You'll have to watch the talks to get a handle on what the shitstorm is about, but they're short and I think worth the trouble.

Rupert Sheldrak, TEDx Whitechapel
Graham Hancock, TEDx Whitechapel

Unfortunately, TED's unsatisfying response was to try to placate both sides. The "offending" videos were removed from the TEDx YouTube channel, but then artfully stuffed somewhere else to avoid charges of censorship. The situation has led to the following open letter:

One of modern science's great strengths is that any questionable finding dies a quick death if it's invalid. The safeguards are mainly two: Your new finding must be repeatable when other researchers run the same experiments, and peer review by qualified scientists subjects every new finding to microscopic scrutiny. So it surprised the millions of admirers of TED, whose conferences attract wide attention to new, cutting-edge ideas, when that organization decided to practice semi-censorship.

The flap is over two videos of TEDx talks delivered in the UK in January that were summarily removed from TEDx's YouTube channel (TEDx is the brand name for conferences outside the main TED events that are allowed to use the TED trademark, such as TEDxBoston or TEDxBaghdad -- so far, about 5,000 such events have used the name). This amounts only to semi-censorship because the videos were reposted on TED's blog site. Yet the reputations of the two presenters, Rupert Sheldrake and Graham Hancock, were besmirched.

In a letter to all the TEDx organizers, Chris Anderson, the head of TED, proposed certain "red flag" topics, among them health hoaxes and the medicinal value of food but also the general area of pseudoscience. The response has been decidedly negative - scientists don't like the suppression of free thinking - and among the thousands of comments aired on the Internet, one pointed out that Sheldrake and Hancock spoke at a TEDx conference explicitly dedicated to ideas that challenge mainstream thinking.

There's no need to stir the coals. TED has been badly singed already. At a cursory glance, much of Anderson's letter sounds reasonable: TED has every right to give guidelines to conferences using their name. Who's in favor of health hoaxes and pseudoscience? As it happens, Sheldrake's talk was on "The Science Delusion" and covered ten dogmas in mainstream science that need to be examined; there wasn't a hint of bad science in it. Hancock's talk was on consciousness and psychedelics, a topic without fangs for anyone who has heard of the Sixties, much less lived through them. Even as the videos were begrudgingly reposted, TED felt justified in tagging them as "radical" and attaching a "health warning".

Yet something quite pivotal is occurring that inflames strong feelings. The decision to remove the two videos was apparently instigated by angry, noisy bloggers who promote militant atheism. Their target was a burgeoning field, the exploration of consciousness. For generations bringing up consciousness as a scientific topic was taboo. In the wildly popular fantasy novels by George R. R. Martin, "A Game of Thrones," now running as an equally mad success on HBO, the mythical kingdom of Westeros is divided by a great wall 700 feet high. On the other side of the wall are lethal enemies and malefic magic. For centuries, no one has seen the zombie-like White Walkers who live on the other side of the wall, nor the dragons that once ravaged Westeros.

Even so, after magic and zombies fell into disbelief, a hereditary band of guardians swore an oath to keep watch at the wall, generation after generation. TED has put itself in rather the same position. What the militant atheists and self-described skeptics hate is a certain brand of magical thinking that endangers science. In particular, there is the bugaboo of "non-local consciousness," which causes the hair on the back of their necks to stand on end. A layman would be forgiven for not grasping why such an innocent-sounding phrase could spell danger to "good science."

The reason becomes clear when you discover that non-local consciousness means the possibility that there is mind outside the human brain or even outside material reality, that a conscious mind is in some way intrinsic to the quantum universe, and that we all are quantum entangled. One of us (Menas Kafatos) has devoted many years of research on the connection of quantum theory to consciousness. Four of us (Stuart Hameroff, Rudolph Tanzi, Neil Thiese, and Deepak Chopra) have devoted years of research to neuroscience, clinical studies and consciousness. For millennia it went without question that such a mind exists; it was known as God.

Fearing that God is finding a way to sneak back into the kingdom through ideas of quantum consciousness, militant atheists go on the attack against near-death experiences, telepathy, action at a distance, and all manifestations of purpose-driven evolution. Like the guardians in "A Game of Thrones," these militants haven't actually looked over the wall, and given their absolute conviction that the human brain is the only source of awareness in the universe, you'd think that speculative thinking on the subject wouldn't be so threatening. (Most people wouldn't picket a convention of werewolves in their hometown. It's not hard to tell what is fantasy.)

But TED took the threat seriously enough that Anderson's letter warns against "the fusion of science and spirituality," and most disappointing of all, it tags as a sign of good science that "it does not fly in the face of the broad existing body of scientific knowledge." Even a newcomer to science knows about Copernicus, Galileo, and other great scientists whose theories countermanded the prevailing body of accepted knowledge. Einstein believed in a static universe at a time when early proponents of an expanding universe were ignored, and the early reception of the now-popular "multiverse" theory was scornful. The greatest breakthroughs rarely come by acts of conformity.

Anderson's letter is cautiously couched on the one hand - he takes pains to divorce his warnings from outright bans and acknowledges that the dividing line between real science and pseudoscience is hardly sharp and clear. But the dose of cold water is frigid enough, since his red-flag subjects include "healing" of any kind (his quotation marks) and using neuroscience to explain various mind-body puzzles ("a lot of goofballs" inhabit this area).

TED finds itself on the wrong side of censorship, semi- or not. But this fracas actually opens a window. The general public - and many working scientists - isn't aware that consciousness has become a hot topic spanning many disciplines, and its acceptability is demarked by age. Older, established scientists tend to be dead set against it, while younger, upcoming scientists are fascinated. There are any number of books on "the conscious universe." There are peer-reviewed journals on consciousness and worldwide conferences on how to link mind and brain (the so-called "hard problem"). Nobody wants to guard the wall except the self-appointed watchers and minders who form a society for the suppression of curiosity (it should be noted that TED's Science Board, which undoubtedly plays a role in this dispute, remains anonymous).

Freedom of thought is going to win out, and certainly TED must be shocked by the avalanche of disapproval Anderson's letter has met with. The real grievance here isn't about intellectual freedom but the success of militant atheists at quashing anyone who disagrees with them. Their common tactic is scorn, ridicule, and contempt. The most prominent leaders, especially Richard Dawkins, refuse to debate on any serious grounds, and indeed they show almost total ignorance of the cutting-edge biology and physics that has admitted consciousness back into "good science."

Militant atheism is a social/political movement; In no way does it deserve to represent itself as scientific. Francis Collins, a self-proclaimed Christian, is an acclaimed geneticist who heads the National Institutes of Health. To date, Collins hasn't let any White Walkers or dragons over the wall. Dawkins, who has a close association with TED, gave a TED talk in 2002 where he said the following:
    "It may sound as if I am about to preach atheism. I want to reassure you that that's not what I am going to do. In an audience as sophisticated as this one, that would be preaching to the choir. [scattered laughter] No, what I want to urge upon you is militant atheism."
In a society where militant atheism occupies a prestigious niche, disbelief in God is widespread, but it isn't synonymous with science. In his mega-bestseller "The God Delusion," Dawkins proclaims that religion is "the root of all evil." He describes teaching children about religion as "child abuse." He spoke publically on the occasion of a papal visit to London calling for the Pope to be arrested for "crimes against humanity." To propose, as Dawkins does, that science supports such extremist views is an errant misuse of science, if not a form of pseudoscience.

TED is a huge enterprise bringing cutting edge ideas to the world, and local TEDx organizers will no doubt feel a chill when they read Anderson's stern reproof: "It is not your audience's job to figure out if a speaker is offering legitimate science or not. It is your job." If the intent of this warning wasn't explicit enough, TEDx rescinded their trademark from a recent conference in West Hollywood because of "questionable" speakers, causing the cowed organizers to cancel the event before they reconsidered and held it without the coveted brand name. A call to caution is hard to tell from a desire to censor.

One of the authors of this article (Stuart Hameroff) recently gave a TEDx talk in Tucson where he made the point that critics of the possibility of consciousness outside the brain cannot explain consciousness inside the brain. While neuroscience is at a loss, the notion of consciousness being based on finer scale, deeper order quantum effects in microtubules inside brain neurons (the Penrose-Hameroff 'Orch OR model) has been boosted by recent discoveries of quantum resonances in microtubules, and anesthetic action on microtubules. Quantum entanglement could account for Rupert Sheldrake's findings, and consciousness occurring outside the brain. Stuart Hameroff's TEDx talk 'The future of consciousness' explains how this can scientifically happen. Should it be censored also?

But the main flaw in TED's position has been made abundantly clear. It isn't the organizers' job to exclude questionable science but a job shared between them and the audience. We're all adults here, right? Any speculative thinking worthy of the name should make somebody in the audience angry, inspire others, and leave the rest to decide if a challenging idea should be thrown out or not. Any other approach casts shame upon tolerance, imagination, and science itself.


Signatories to the letter in alphabetical order are:

Deepak Chopra, MD, FACP
Stuart Hameroff, MD, Professor of Anesthesiology and Psychology, Director, Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona
Menas C. Kafatos, Ph.D., Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor in Computational Physics, Director, Center of Excellence, Chapman University
Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University, Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital
Neil Theise, MD, Professor, Pathology and Medicine, Beth Israel Medical Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, New York


The tumult at TED highlights an issue that has at times been fought over right here in this forum. If you watched the videos, please select from the first two options. If not, then pick one of the second two.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2013 2:42:40 AM >
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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 9:11:16 AM   
vincentML


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You omitted my choice. I viewed both videos and do not support SFTSOC. I thought Sheldrak was interesting and offered some good challenges and criticisms even if I do not, as a phiosophical Materialist, buy into Universal Consciousness. Hancock's talk was less satisfying. Would have been helpful to see a few of the letters from the alleged militant atheists. Anderson also pulled Sarah Silverman's video because she used the word 'retarded' along with the words 'mentally challenged' when she spoke of her desire to adopt one of these kids, and the attendent problems. Anderson seems to have a broader censorship problem then only bowing to militant atheists. Fortunately, Sarah's video is available on youtube.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/21/2013 9:12:07 AM >

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:12:11 AM   
DaddySatyr


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I've said this on these boards before and I'll say it, again. I believe that someday, science will prove the existence of God. It'll be interesting to watch the moaning and gnashing of teeth from the God-haters when that happens. By "God-haters", I'm not talking about atheists. I guess, in the parameters of this discussion, I'm talking about "militant atheists" who seem bent on wiping out everyone's belief in a higher power.

When we start limiting science, we do a dis-service to ourselves but, when we start limiting religious belief we do the same thing. It would be nice if people would see it that way.

Freedom is opposed to constraints. The more constraints we have, the less freedom we have.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:22:03 AM   
Powergamz1


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You lost me at Deepak Chopra

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:24:15 AM   
Owner59


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Then why is there so much anti-intellectual,anti-science,idiotic hyperbole coming from Christians and Muslims,attacking science?

If anyone can show us where science has attacked god.....please do.I mean documented examples,not the hurt feeling of fundies.


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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:32:37 AM   
Owner59


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FR


Western science does not in deed say we are "just meat",that conscience dies when our bodies die.


As far as I`ve seen,science has only said that that`s possible.


I`m also getting a little tired of those self-made victims who`re always whining that they`re put upon because the world scientific community doesn`t believe the earth was created 6 to 10 thousand years ago.


And uh....shrooms are cool...

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/21/2013 10:33:41 AM >


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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:39:02 AM   
TheHeretic


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Thank you for the links, K.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:39:06 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I'm talking about "militant atheists" who seem bent on wiping out everyone's belief in a higher power.

There is much being made of 'militant atheists' on here. I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.

quote:

When we start limiting science, we do a dis-service to ourselves but, when we start limiting religious belief we do the same thing. It would be nice if people would see it that way.

I suggest you are blind to the contemporary attempt by fundamentalist religious here and the world over to limit science. Both the Islamic fundies and the Christian fundies would throw is into an age of dis-enlightenment.

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 10:45:04 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:



quote:

I'm talking about "militant atheists" who seem bent on wiping out everyone's belief in a higher power.

There is much being made of 'militant atheists' on here. I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.


Bullocks. I could tell you that the reason for theist fundementalists is because of atheists "assaulting" what theists refuse to let go of. It's distinction in name only and "chicken and the egg" time

quote:


quote:

When we start limiting science, we do a dis-service to ourselves but, when we start limiting religious belief we do the same thing. It would be nice if people would see it that way.

I suggest you are blind to the contemporary attempt by fundamentalist religious here and the world over to limit science. Both the Islamic fundies and the Christian fundies would throw is into an age of dis-enlightenment.


And I suggest that you didn't read what I wrote. I am against limiting EITHER science or religious belief.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 11:00:55 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Bullocks. I could tell you that the reason for theist fundementalists is because of atheists "assaulting" what theists refuse to let go of. It's distinction in name only and "chicken and the egg" time

You could tell me that and we would have a serious difference of perception. Perhaps you did not watch the Republican presidential debates. Might have changed your mind as to what is afoot in the world.

quote:

And I suggest that you didn't read what I wrote. I am against limiting EITHER science or religious belief.

I read you correctly. Unfortuantely, what either you or I favor is not translated into the reality of the political clash between science and religion. Let us at least recognize there is a clash going on. I think Rush Limbaugh calls it a "culture war." Let's not be blind to the reality.

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 11:09:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.

Defensiveness makes a good apology, but a poor excuse.

K.

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 11:10:33 AM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:



quote:

Bullocks. I could tell you that the reason for theist fundementalists is because of atheists "assaulting" what theists refuse to let go of. It's distinction in name only and "chicken and the egg" time


You could tell me that and we would have a serious difference of perception. Perhaps you did not watch the Republican presidential debates. Might have changed your mind as to what is afoot in the world.


I could not possibly care less about republican politics so, you're assumption (about my not watching the debates), this time, is correct.

quote:


quote:

And I suggest that you didn't read what I wrote. I am against limiting EITHER science or religious belief.

I read you correctly. Unfortuantely, what either you or I favor is not translated into the reality of the political clash between science and religion. Let us at least recognize there is a clash going on. I think Rush Limbaugh calls it a "culture war." Let's not be blind to the reality.


I never denied that there was a clash going on and I would never deny that there's a culture war. Our culture is under attack by everything from Jihadists to seperatists to Illuminati to you name it.

The clash is nothing more than another distraction, favored by the leftist "intelligencia" designed to keep us from noticing the truly dangerous shit they're trying to shove down our throats.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 11:49:05 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
The clash is nothing more than another distraction, favored by the leftist "intelligencia" designed to keep us from noticing the truly dangerous shit they're trying to shove down our throats.

WTF?

Leftists are trying to return us to a state of profound ignorance by preventing the teaching of any science that questions the literal interpretation of the bible?

Leftists are promoting lies and distortions to keep the public from understanding the approaching disaster of AGW?

Leftists are trying to force everyone to live by a particular, and hateful, reading of the Old Testament?

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 11:56:36 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

I'm talking about "militant atheists" who seem bent on wiping out everyone's belief in a higher power.

There is much being made of 'militant atheists' on here. I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.

quote:

When we start limiting science, we do a dis-service to ourselves but, when we start limiting religious belief we do the same thing. It would be nice if people would see it that way.

I suggest you are blind to the contemporary attempt by fundamentalist religious here and the world over to limit science. Both the Islamic fundies and the Christian fundies would throw is into an age of dis-enlightenment.


Why are fundies so jealous of the credibility that science has?


Demanding, that their dogma be given equal time....


DEMANDING in essence,that we believe, their beliefs.


Science does not demand anyone believe anything....only that you can prove it or at least make a good case.


Science is not a predetermined conclusion,looking to include any supporting evidence and ignoring any evidence that doesn`t.


It`s an ongoing exploration of nature that`s open to correction and re-examination.....


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:03:00 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Would have been helpful to see a few of the letters from the alleged militant atheists.

The attacks consisted of name-calling, insults, irrelevant complaints ("antimaterialism," oh dear), and false claims about the content of the talks. Here's an example from self-proclaimed "Godless liberal biologist" PZ Myers:
    For shame, TEDx

    I thought they were going to clean up their act and stop highlighting crackpots and kooks. But oh look: there’s Rupert Sheldrake, listing all the things he finds wrong about science. How could we possibly accept the dogma that matter is unconscious? Or that genetics is measurable and material? What I found particularly galling in the video besides the smug arrogance of Sheldrake postulating idiocy is that the audience joins in and laughs smugly at his smug assertions.
Here's another example, this time from "Atheist" blogger Jerry Coyne:
    TEDx talks completely discredited: Rupert Sheldrake speaks

    Well, TED has come down a long ways since it once presented a forum for quirky, advanced, and entertaining thinkers. In an effort to keep ahead of the intellectual tide, they’ve started incorporating substandard speakers, including woomeisters, and have spawned "TEDx," local versions of TED talks.

    Those, too, reached their nadir with a TEDx talk at Whitechapel by Rupert Sheldrake, who gives Deepak Chopra a run for the title of World’s Biggest Woomeister. I’ve written about Sheldrake before - about his antimaterialistic views; his ideas that dogs finding their way home, or people knowing that others are watching them behind their backs, proves Jesus; his weakness for telepathy and other bizarre mental phenomena; and his general attitude that science is DOING IT RONG [sic] by hewing to materialism and avoiding the numinous and spiritual
And another from Coyne, who seems to be the worst of the lot:
    More woo and anti-science rants at TEDx

    First we had Rupert "can-dogs-find-their-way-home" Sheldrake peddling woo and antiscience at TEDx Whitechapel, and now, at the very same venue, we see Graham Hancock decrying materialism and spouting woo and pseudoarchaeology.
There's a long thread here which includes the responses of both of the speakers, plus a multitude of comments. You will note that TED has been obliged to strike it's original entries, and I think they deserve credit for doing this publicly instead of just making them disappear.


K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2013 12:52:59 PM >

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:17:14 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.

Defensiveness makes a good apology, but a poor excuse.

K.


I would agree if you used the term 'apology' as a rational and not a mea culpa.

Why is an excuse needed? The Religious Fundamentalist activities will not cease. Are atheists to turn the other cheek? Perhaps bring their own dunking stools to the party?

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:29:06 PM   
Real0ne


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the problem with anything is that someone finds a way to make money then whatever its based on becomes forever status quo.

the speed of light for instance varies considerably, yet it is viewed as a constant rather than a pretty close assumption.

his resonance theory is so intuitively obvious that the more brilliant children recognize it at fairly young ages.

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:32:33 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The attacks consisted of name-calling, insults, irrelevant complaints ("antimaterialism," oh dear), and false claims about the content of the talks.

Thanks. I appreciate the time and effort by you.

There seems to be some valid criticisms of Sheldrake and Hancock. Well, at least criticism I am comfortable with. Perhaps the way to resolve this would have been to allow one critic of each to make a video presentation and post it along side the originals rather than withdraw the originals.

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RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:34:53 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

I put it to you that what you perceive as people trying to wipe out everyone's belief in a higher power is what I see as a defensive reaction against the centuries of persecution of heretics and the prevailing intrusion and imposition of Fundamental Christian dogma in the American political arena and the imposition of Islamic Jihad upon the world.

Defensiveness makes a good apology, but a poor excuse.

K.


I would agree if you used the term 'apology' as a rational and not a mea culpa.

Why is an excuse needed? The Religious Fundamentalist activities will not cease. Are atheists to turn the other cheek? Perhaps bring their own dunking stools to the party?


Atheism more closely represents commercialist dogma.

If you cannot touch and make money with it, it does not exist.




_____________________________

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Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Society for the Suppression of Curiosity - 4/21/2013 12:38:48 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

The Religious Fundamentalist activities will not cease. Are atheists to turn the other cheek?

No, but what has this topic to do with either "Religious Fundamentalists" or even Atheism per se. The Materialist world-view being pushed by these so-called "Atheists" is neither inherent in Atheism nor shared by all Atheists. That said, mea culpa, I've edited my previous post to put quotation marks around "Atheist" there too.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2013 12:55:31 PM >

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 20
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