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RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 2:32:38 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Initially they cant. We are trying to cover more, not simply cover those who have it available to them.


There is a lot of debate currently suggesting that with more folks covered, fewer bankrupting scenarios will occur, making, just from a cost/benefit ratio basis, the new universal healthcare profitable when including all outside and associated factors (including, as Taz mentioned....fewer ER uses for a common cold and such).

I suspect this will prove correct, but the one thing I don't think will prove correct is that premiums will rise slower or even fall.

It's fairly basic math; if you raise the cost of doing business (infinite coverage instead of lifetime caps, coverage for any illness instead of giving a waiting period for known illnesses, etc.), the premium for said business will rise.

When the cost of doing business has had all caps removed entirely, it only seems rational that any cap on the top end of the monthly premium would also be removed, indeed, obliterated.

I find it difficult to believe that anything short of a doubling of health care costs will occur within the next 5 - 7 years.

(Hope I'm wrong).

In any case, as I've stated for years, I'm a huge fan of this legislation, both from a human standpoint, but even more so as a business man....it puts everyone on an even playing field.

I truly believe everyone should have health care. Free? No. Available, some kind of affordable, yep....but as a selfish business man, competing against companies that don't offer what we do (100% paid coverage...with a killer plan, vision, dental, etc.)...just from a business vantage point, I think it's fab.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 4/27/2013 2:34:03 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 3:36:22 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It's fairly basic math; if you raise the cost of doing business (infinite coverage instead of lifetime caps, coverage for any illness instead of giving a waiting period for known illnesses, etc.), the premium for said business will rise.


Except that you arent seeing the lowering from the other end.

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 5:01:33 PM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Initially they cant. We are trying to cover more, not simply cover those who have it available to them.


Just initially? How will everyone have the option of signing up on the exchanges once the uninsured are covered? Would that involve changes to the law requiring Congressional approval? Many people with health insurance through employment have a low income and the companies they work for only offer high deductible health insurance. The premium is affordable but the deductible isn't. Their income alone might qualify them for a policy on the exchange with a $500 deductible for the same premium (after subsidy) they're paying for the high deductible through their employer. The fact that their employer offers health insurance, even if it has a high deductible and high co-pays, will make them ineligible for a low deductible affordable policy on the exchange.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 5:51:40 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It's fairly basic math; if you raise the cost of doing business (infinite coverage instead of lifetime caps, coverage for any illness instead of giving a waiting period for known illnesses, etc.), the premium for said business will rise.


Except that you arent seeing the lowering from the other end.


Which was covered in the above, still doubtful...but...hopeful :)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 5:53:45 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

One often-overlooked aspect of our largely employment-based approach to health care is that folks get trapped in jobs they've outgrown simply because they need the insurance. I wonder how much talent goes untapped as a result.

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it's never enough to keep up.

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INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 9:56:21 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

1. Bullshit.
2. Bullshit.
3. Bullshit.
Eyes turning brown?
I didn't say they live healthy or unhealthy lifestyles. I asked if they have a responsibility to live a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden on the system?

Part of a healthy lifestyle is visiting your physician.


Very true. But, there are plenty of other things one can also do to have a healthy lifestyle, no? Living a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden could very well include visiting the doctor. At no time does living a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden on the system prevent someone from going to the doctor.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 11:22:21 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


So, because someone makes more money, which could very easily be because he or she may have taken more risks, applied him or herself more, and been more successful, they get to pay more for health insurance than others who may not have applied themselves as much?

Nice.


This pretty much sums up your view on those who can't afford health care, so everything else you said is based on your belief that the poor people simply don't apply themselves. Total bullshit and lack of understanding what the true situation is. And no, I'm not going to explain it to you, since it would be a waste of time.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 11:30:04 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie


LL...did they ever determine the source/cause?


Yes, they did. Around 1974, it was discovered that the plastic your meat is wrapped in gives off carcinogenic fumes when heated. This plastic wrap is heated each and every time your meat is wrapped on that nifty little "warming" device they use to seal the plastic (not shrink wrapping, that is something different).

None of your supermarkets changed their methods for wrapping meat, and the manufacturer (Hobart, Inc.), did not change the product.

The supermarkets my father was the meat manager for had a less than stellar ventilation system in the meat room, meaning that he was regularly inhaling these fumes for more than 30 years.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 11:37:56 PM   
LafayetteLady


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From: Northern New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Oh but didnt you know the belief is that medicaid is free care all the way around?

(please note the sarcasm is not directed at you, erie )


Oh yea, on Medicaid, you get so many great benefits, such as no hospitalization, no vision care, no specialists (since none will participate), and the GPs that do take Medicaid are generally the bottom of the barrel, who given a choice, no one in their right mind would choose as a doctor.

It does cover medication pretty well though, better than Medicare for sure.

Interestingly enough, on my recent trip to Europe, I needed to purchase my medications. Metformin, which is about $65 for a 30 day supply here in the US with a prescription, was one euro, ninety-five cents there and no prescription was needed. So that is about $3 a month. Lyrica, which is close to $300 a month here, was sixty-five euros there, about $80, or about 1/3 of the cost. Ibuprofin, 600mg, available only be prescription here and at a cost of about $40-50 is about $3 bucks there.

So while pharmaceuticals are going on and on about needing to price new drugs so high, and apparently generics as well because of the R&D and FDA testing and approval costs, why isn't Europe absorbing the cost for those same medications?


Benefits vary state-by-state, but according to the dotGOV website, hospitalisations are universally covered.

I get vision care with glasses every 2 years.
I get basic dental coverage.

I have a great pcp, who I began with 5 years before going on medicaid, and have had no issues with being referred to specialists.
In my state most of the best hospitals and physicians take medicaid.

Edit to add: btw: Metformin is one of the $4.00/month RXs at Walmart.


Yes, Metformin is on the $4 plan at Walmart. It is also one of the free medications offered through Shop Rite (another is antibiotics).

It would be lovely if Medicaid in NJ covered hospitalization, but it doesn't, even though that site says it should. I have asked in the past about that, but never received a satisfactory answer.

(in reply to angelikaJ)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/27/2013 11:42:42 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		The NJ site says it covers for hospital services as well.

I would ask the state director of health and human services and go up from there... .

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 4:55:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, because someone makes more money, which could very easily be because he or she may have taken more risks, applied him or herself more, and been more successful, they get to pay more for health insurance than others who may not have applied themselves as much?
Nice.

This pretty much sums up your view on those who can't afford health care, so everything else you said is based on your belief that the poor people simply don't apply themselves. Total bullshit and lack of understanding what the true situation is. And no, I'm not going to explain it to you, since it would be a waste of time.


Notice the use of may have and may not have? In general those who apply themselves more will be more successful than those who don't apply themselves as much. That's pretty much what the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was all about. Just as in healthy lifestyles and not having negative health conditions, working hard and applying yourself isn't a guarantee that you'll be successful, but it sure as fuck helps.

Do you have any examples of people who have earned their money that haven't applied themselves?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 5:29:18 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

1. Bullshit.
2. Bullshit.
3. Bullshit.
Eyes turning brown?
I didn't say they live healthy or unhealthy lifestyles. I asked if they have a responsibility to live a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden on the system?

Part of a healthy lifestyle is visiting your physician.


Very true. But, there are plenty of other things one can also do to have a healthy lifestyle, no? Living a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden could very well include visiting the doctor. At no time does living a healthy lifestyle so as to be less of a burden on the system prevent someone from going to the doctor.



Affordability prevents access. Working two jobs sorta cuts into the gym and country club time. Food prices prohibit a healthier way to eating. Reducing stress is also part of a healthier lifestyle. Stress can be a causative factor in many disease processes. Hard to reduce stress when you cant afford the basics of life.


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 6:44:30 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, because someone makes more money, which could very easily be because he or she may have taken more risks, applied him or herself more, and been more successful, they get to pay more for health insurance than others who may not have applied themselves as much?
Nice.

This pretty much sums up your view on those who can't afford health care, so everything else you said is based on your belief that the poor people simply don't apply themselves. Total bullshit and lack of understanding what the true situation is. And no, I'm not going to explain it to you, since it would be a waste of time.


Notice the use of may have and may not have? In general those who apply themselves more will be more successful than those who don't apply themselves as much. That's pretty much what the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was all about. Just as in healthy lifestyles and not having negative health conditions, working hard and applying yourself isn't a guarantee that you'll be successful, but it sure as fuck helps.

Do you have any examples of people who have earned their money that haven't applied themselves?



Yep, the Kardashians.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 6:45:45 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		C'mon taz, you know if those people just tried harder, like went to school full time in between the two jobs, they could do better. They just aren't trying hard enough.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 10:26:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, because someone makes more money, which could very easily be because he or she may have taken more risks, applied him or herself more, and been more successful, they get to pay more for health insurance than others who may not have applied themselves as much?
Nice.

This pretty much sums up your view on those who can't afford health care, so everything else you said is based on your belief that the poor people simply don't apply themselves. Total bullshit and lack of understanding what the true situation is. And no, I'm not going to explain it to you, since it would be a waste of time.

Notice the use of may have and may not have? In general those who apply themselves more will be more successful than those who don't apply themselves as much. That's pretty much what the whole "Land of Opportunity" thing was all about. Just as in healthy lifestyles and not having negative health conditions, working hard and applying yourself isn't a guarantee that you'll be successful, but it sure as fuck helps.
Do you have any examples of people who have earned their money that haven't applied themselves?

Yep, the Kardashians.


How did they earn their money? Or, did they inherit it?


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 10:33:47 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
C'mon taz, you know if those people just tried harder, like went to school full time in between the two jobs, they could do better. They just aren't trying hard enough.


Your implication that all the poor are working two jobs and aren't making it is as accurate as anyone's claim that all the poor don't work, don't work hard, or don't apply themselves.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 10:50:28 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Its not just "poor" who are working only one job who cant afford health insurance. There are many middle class familes with two incomes who cant get it because their employers dont offer it/ pre-existing conditions / debt obligations, especially after the burst.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 11:12:22 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not just "poor" who are working only one job who cant afford health insurance. There are many middle class familes with two incomes who cant get it because their employers dont offer it/ pre-existing conditions / debt obligations, especially after the burst.


As true as that is, that wasn't the set of people that LL and I have been debating about.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 11:25:56 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not just "poor" who are working only one job who cant afford health insurance. There are many middle class familes with two incomes who cant get it because their employers dont offer it/ pre-existing conditions / debt obligations, especially after the burst.


As true as that is, that wasn't the set of people that LL and I have been debating about.


Then you have been too narrow in your debate.

The poor can access health care, in some cases. ER, Medicaid (under certain conditions), Medicare (amazing how many people on disability are also poor), State and Community programs.

Each state has its own rules. So its the luck of the draw as to where you are if you get any help at all. Even opening up Medicaid to more people wont do much to change the fact that unless someone is pregnant, disabled, elderly or blind, they wont get much help from that program.

Many "poor" people work two jobs, when they can find them. Take a look at employment ads recently? "Must be available to work all shifts" "Must have open availability"... doesnt exactly lend itself to two jobs.

Two jobs require more child care, if you have children. If not, then you are good. Most low end jobs only provide Day One Insurance... better than nothing, but doesnt cover much and the employee has to jump through hoops to get anything covered or reimbursed.

Just because someone is "middle class" doesnt mean they can afford insurance.

I see LL debating why people cant afford health insurance.

I see you debating on why the rich have to pay more.

I believe, despite your assertion, the middle class very much has a position in LL's argument.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: health insurance not tied to employment - 4/28/2013 1:36:18 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not just "poor" who are working only one job who cant afford health insurance. There are many middle class familes with two incomes who cant get it because their employers dont offer it/ pre-existing conditions / debt obligations, especially after the burst.

As true as that is, that wasn't the set of people that LL and I have been debating about.

Then you have been too narrow in your debate.


No, we haven't. LL started on about "the poor" (while I initially had started talking about the ones who are actually going to be receiving subsidisies via Obamacare's tax credits), so I went with it. There is no "right" or "wrong" set of people to talk about. The set was defined and that was what we were talking about. Is it too narrow to not talk about Christians when the topic is Jewish fundamentalists? Of course not. If the topic is Jewish fundamentalists, Christians really have no place in the discussion. That's the same line of thinking here.

We can talk about a larger group if you want. Just get to it. But, again, we were simply talking about a specific set of people, not a large group.

quote:

The poor can access health care, in some cases. ER, Medicaid (under certain conditions), Medicare (amazing how many people on disability are also poor), State and Community programs.


It's not amazing to either one of us (not likely to most who read these things, either) that those on disability are also poor. That's one of them situations where the ability to work isn't there, making it very difficult for them to garner great success and wealth. It can happen, but it's rare. And, those people need to be supported, and, as I have said many, many times in the 12+ months I've been on CM, I have no problem helping those on disability.

quote:

Each state has its own rules. So its the luck of the draw as to where you are if you get any help at all. Even opening up Medicaid to more people wont do much to change the fact that unless someone is pregnant, disabled, elderly or blind, they wont get much help from that program.
Many "poor" people work two jobs, when they can find them. Take a look at employment ads recently? "Must be available to work all shifts" "Must have open availability"... doesnt exactly lend itself to two jobs.


You --> Preacher
Me --> Choir

quote:

Two jobs require more child care, if you have children. If not, then you are good. Most low end jobs only provide Day One Insurance... better than nothing, but doesnt cover much and the employee has to jump through hoops to get anything covered or reimbursed.


See my response a few lines up.

quote:

Just because someone is "middle class" doesnt mean they can afford insurance.
I see LL debating why people cant afford health insurance.
I see you debating on why the rich have to pay more.
I believe, despite your assertion, the middle class very much has a position in LL's argument.


Why can't the middle class afford insurance? Because it costs too much.

Why does insurance cost too much? Because health care costs are high.

So, X (care costs) cause a rise in Y (insurance costs). The answer to that, then, is to subsidize Y? That's just a bandaid solution, which is and has been my biggest complaint of the Democrat's attempts to "help."

Then, you point towards the reduction in reimbursement rate growth as a way that care costs will be managed. Even though you don't debate that the lack of Medicaid physicians accepting new patients is tied to the relatively low reimbursement rates. How is it you have an apple in each hand and can't see that you have two apples?



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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