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Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 7:28:41 AM   
vincentML


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STRATFOR
Presenting here some SNIPS from the larger article. Would like to have your comments.

Government is the most common form of hierarchy. It is a government that monopolizes the use of violence in a given geographical space, thereby preventing anarchy. To quote Thomas Hobbes, the 17th century English philosopher, only where it is possible to punish the wicked can right and wrong have any practical meaning, and that requires "some coercive power."

The best sort of inequality is hegemony. Whereas primacy, as Kang explains, is about preponderance purely through military or economic power, hegemony "involves legitimation and consensus." That is to say, hegemony is some form of agreed-upon inequality, where the dominant power is expected by others to lead. When a hegemon does not lead, it is acting irresponsibly.

Stability is not the natural order of things. In fact, history shows that stability such as it exists is usually a function of imperial rule, which, in turn, is a common form of hierarchy. To wit, there are few things messier in geopolitics than the demise of an empire. The collapse of the Hapsburgs, of the Ottoman Turks, of the Soviet Empire and the British Empire in Asia and Africa led to chronic wars and upheavals. Some uncomprehending commentators remind us that all empires end badly. Of course they do, but that is only after they have provided decades and centuries of relative peace.

Indeed, from the end of World War II until very recently, the United States has performed the role of a hegemon in world politics. America may be democratic at home, but abroad it has been hegemonic. That is, by some rough measure of international consent, it is America that has the responsibility to lead. America formed NATO in Europe, even as its Navy and Air Force exercise preponderant power in the Pacific Basin. And whenever there is a humanitarian catastrophe somewhere in the developing world, it is the United States that has been expected to organize the response. Periodically, America has failed. But in general, it would be a different, much more anarchic world without American hegemony.

Your thoughts??
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 7:34:18 AM   
mnottertail


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A minor cavil with the word hegemony, there is an agreed inequality in hegemony, and that agreement in the definition seems like it is not coerced.  

We are somewhere between hegemony, and suzerainty, and there may be a special word that fits in there, but ........I don't know it.

Yeah, but we are some bully motherfuckers.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 9:42:58 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
STRATFOR
Presenting here some SNIPS from the larger article. Would like to have your comments.
Government is the most common form of hierarchy. It is a government that monopolizes the use of violence in a given geographical space, thereby preventing anarchy. To quote Thomas Hobbes, the 17th century English philosopher, only where it is possible to punish the wicked can right and wrong have any practical meaning, and that requires "some coercive power."
The best sort of inequality is hegemony. Whereas primacy, as Kang explains, is about preponderance purely through military or economic power, hegemony "involves legitimation and consensus." That is to say, hegemony is some form of agreed-upon inequality, where the dominant power is expected by others to lead. When a hegemon does not lead, it is acting irresponsibly.
Stability is not the natural order of things. In fact, history shows that stability such as it exists is usually a function of imperial rule, which, in turn, is a common form of hierarchy. To wit, there are few things messier in geopolitics than the demise of an empire. The collapse of the Hapsburgs, of the Ottoman Turks, of the Soviet Empire and the British Empire in Asia and Africa led to chronic wars and upheavals. Some uncomprehending commentators remind us that all empires end badly. Of course they do, but that is only after they have provided decades and centuries of relative peace.
Indeed, from the end of World War II until very recently, the United States has performed the role of a hegemon in world politics. America may be democratic at home, but abroad it has been hegemonic. That is, by some rough measure of international consent, it is America that has the responsibility to lead. America formed NATO in Europe, even as its Navy and Air Force exercise preponderant power in the Pacific Basin. And whenever there is a humanitarian catastrophe somewhere in the developing world, it is the United States that has been expected to organize the response. Periodically, America has failed. But in general, it would be a different, much more anarchic world without American hegemony.
Your thoughts??


Very interesting snippets. I'll read the entire article at a later time.

I think one of the issues the US has, globally, is that we are expected to be the hegemon and lead the charge in times of disaster, and also to be the hegemon to push the whims and desires of allies, yet to gtfo when they disagree. If we truly are the hegemon, aren't all our decisions, basically, final? It's as if we have that "agreed upon inequality" when we back their beliefs, but don't have it when we act contrary to their beliefs. When we act, it isn't fast enough, or enough enough. If we don't act, we are hammered for not acting. It's almost like a lose-lose situation we're in.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 10:27:09 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

I think one of the issues the US has, globally, is that we are expected to be the hegemon and lead the charge in times of disaster, and also to be the hegemon to push the whims and desires of allies, yet to gtfo when they disagree. If we truly are the hegemon, aren't all our decisions, basically, final? It's as if we have that "agreed upon inequality" when we back their beliefs, but don't have it when we act contrary to their beliefs. When we act, it isn't fast enough, or enough enough. If we don't act, we are hammered for not acting. It's almost like a lose-lose situation we're in.

Signs that the Empire is tottering? Or just business as usual?

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 12:01:34 PM   
Extravagasm


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The common philosopher's conceit that anarchy is the natural default state of humans, against which systems must be justified to replace . . . is utterly false; Since there has ALWAYS been power . . . which disallows a vacuum, even in the beginning.
On the contrary, the basic default state of indigenous humans (and also of social animals) is the tribe, governed by dominant leaders. It does not rise out of anarchy, for it itself is the basic default state.

Problem is . . . humans also have another strong drive: to submit and be governed by demigodry. This secondary drive, is the constant competitor of freedom.

It may well be unwise to consider systems on the basis of which better keeps peace, as this article seems to. Because clearly, tribes (and even local warlord systems) do a far better job of peace, than imperial systems. Not even close, when considering the statistics from wars, religious cleansing, ethnic relocations, etc, by all centralized nations.

The primary advantage of imperial systems, is that culture flourishes under them. Against an enormous price in human life, disaffection, and inequality.

< Message edited by Extravagasm -- 4/25/2013 12:25:50 PM >


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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 2:05:42 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

The common philosopher's conceit that anarchy is the natural default state of humans, against which systems must be justified to replace . . . is utterly false; Since there has ALWAYS been power . . . which disallows a vacuum, even in the beginning.
On the contrary, the basic default state of indigenous humans (and also of social animals) is the tribe, governed by dominant leaders. It does not rise out of anarchy, for it itself is the basic default state.

Interesting pov and well stated. Thanks.

quote:

It may well be unwise to consider systems on the basis of which better keeps peace, as this article seems to. Because clearly, tribes (and even local warlord systems) do a far better job of peace, than imperial systems. Not even close, when considering the statistics from wars, religious cleansing, ethnic relocations, etc, by all centralized nations.

Tribes govern much smaller geographies than Empires. So, not really an equivalency, is it?

quote:

The primary advantage of imperial systems, is that culture flourishes under them. Against an enormous price in human life, disaffection, and inequality.

In many cases yes. But the article points to Empires that were more beneficial to human life.
"The empire of the Austrian Hapsburgs in Central and Eastern Europe often protected the rights of minorities and prevented ethnic wars to a much greater degree than did the modern states that succeeded it."

And of course the main thesis of the article is that inequality is essential in the affairs of humans and in the affairs of nations if peace and order are the higher values. The absence of inequality does not lead to equality but to anarchy.



< Message edited by vincentML -- 4/25/2013 2:06:07 PM >

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 6:05:23 PM   
MrRodgers


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Going back to Rome, from the Ottomans to the British, most all imperialist empires were cultural and political only as unnecessary for it to be economic. All empires as such dependent on govt. power (monopoly on violence) to affect economic servitude. The necessities of hegemony are political. The 'anarchy' discussed here is in no way the anarchy of say the dark ages.

Seems this piece judged almost entirely on a modern civil society as being required to follow any such power vacuum. Historically most had a chance but most fail, they simply resulted in despotism and corruption.

The monopoly on violence prevents anarchy yet has in the recent centuries, produced failed states...unable to achieve the benefits of that modern civil society.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 6:59:18 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The common philosopher's conceit that anarchy is the natural default state of humans, against which systems must be justified to replace . . . is utterly false; Since there has ALWAYS been power . . . which disallows a vacuum, even in the beginning.
On the contrary, the basic default state of indigenous humans (and also of social animals) is the tribe, governed by dominant leaders. It does not rise out of anarchy, for it itself is the basic default state.

Interesting pov and well stated. Thanks.

quote:

It may well be unwise to consider systems on the basis of which better keeps peace, as this article seems to. Because clearly, tribes (and even local warlord systems) do a far better job of peace, than imperial systems. Not even close, when considering the statistics from wars, religious cleansing, ethnic relocations, etc, by all centralized nations.

Tribes govern much smaller geographies than Empires. So, not really an equivalency, is it?

quote:

The primary advantage of imperial systems, is that culture flourishes under them. Against an enormous price in human life, disaffection, and inequality.

In many cases yes. But the article points to Empires that were more beneficial to human life.
"The empire of the Austrian Hapsburgs in Central and Eastern Europe often protected the rights of minorities and prevented ethnic wars to a much greater degree than did the modern states that succeeded it."

And of course the main thesis of the article is that inequality is essential in the affairs of humans and in the affairs of nations if peace and order are the higher values. The absence of inequality does not lead to equality but to anarchy.


I've read the Ottoman empire described as being a benevolent empire. They just wanted their percentage. The rest was up to the locals.

Local politics was all local and the head of state was more or less, the top cop on the beat ensuring local comity, ferreting out corruption. Once that began to crumble...the empire followed.


< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 4/25/2013 7:00:23 PM >

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 7:23:27 PM   
Real0ne


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nah thats a typical misrepresentation and disinformation.

These democracies are complete bullshit, unless you believe that voting in your next plantation lord and thats where it ends is democracy.

Anarchy is lack of government only NOT law.

In other words the only thing that would exist is the courts, and the law would be enforced by the forming of posses as they were needed rather than a standing corporate police force style army and the insanely growing police state.

Now if you are all paying attention you would find out that we have anarchy right now and what we believe is government has been overrun years ago.

Anarchy yields the most "individual" freedom as in free from government that is possible.

now this may be a bit much for people to wrap their heads around but for those who can its a real eye opening experience when you realize its all a house of cards that can only be supported by he who has the biggest guns. The courts have proven it. oh and if that last one is a bit to heavy, this is an x sheriff, no he quit lol


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/25/2013 8:06:47 PM >


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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 7:54:08 PM   
kdsub


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Vince...Is it possible to be THE world power without being hegemonic? I think not. No fault of our own that we lead.. that is what we did to become the world's preeminent power and now that we are should we step back?

As for empire building...where is it? As I've said before we are most likely the only world power other than China perhaps that has had this much power and NOT built an empire.

Butch

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 8:08:38 PM   
Real0ne


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what makes you think we lead? Russia has done most things bigger and better and before we did.

~American Vacuum

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/25/2013 8:09:33 PM >


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"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 8:34:18 PM   
kdsub


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They were a formidable foe no doubt…until the 1980’s when our economy beat them… They just could not keep up.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 8:44:54 PM   
Real0ne


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Reagan took or was given credit for that, I wonder which country and who is getting or taking credit for the economic fall of America right now?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 9:02:34 PM   
kdsub


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You may want to check statistics on who is the world economic power...now...then get back to me.

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/25/2013 9:28:20 PM   
Real0ne


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_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/26/2013 5:26:56 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Vince...Is it possible to be THE world power without being hegemonic? I think not. No fault of our own that we lead.. that is what we did to become the world's preeminent power and now that we are should we step back?
As for empire building...where is it? As I've said before we are most likely the only world power other than China perhaps that has had this much power and NOT built an empire.
Butch


Butch, how many military bases do we have around the world? Some of them are welcomed and some are not.

According to the wiki, the Earth has 148,940,000 km².

1 km² = 247.105381 acres.

According to the DoD's Base Structure Report FY2010 Baseline, US bases cover 28 million acres. Of the 4,999 bases we have, 662 are on foreign land. There was no easy breakdown of domestic vs. territory vs. foreign area coverage.

Mathemagics shows us that US bases cover about 113,312 km². That means that 0.076% (76 thousandths of one percent) of the total Land Surface Area of the Earth is covered by US bases. While 0.076% doesn't seem like a high percentage, we're just talking about our military bases, both domestic and abroad.

From the USA wiki, the US constitutes 9,826,675 km², of which 6.76% is water. That means we have 9,162,392 km² of land surface area, or 6.15% of the Earth's total land area.

We may not have an "Empire" per se, but we certainly have quite a footprint across the globe via our military.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/26/2013 6:15:26 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Vince...Is it possible to be THE world power without being hegemonic? I think not. No fault of our own that we lead.. that is what we did to become the world's preeminent power and now that we are should we step back?

As for empire building...where is it? As I've said before we are most likely the only world power other than China perhaps that has had this much power and NOT built an empire.

Butch

Butch, empire does not require physical occupation. It is built of alliances with weaker nations who seek protection or other favors.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/26/2013 6:24:18 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

They were a formidable foe no doubt…until the 1980’s when our economy beat them… They just could not keep up.

The Soviet economy and the economies of their eastern European satellites never really recovered from WW2 because Stalin rejected American economic aid [he thought the Marshal Plan was a plot against him] and because he spent his resources on a central industrial military endeavor. Our economy did not beat his. Our CIA continually misjudged the strength of the Soviet economy. It crumbled from within and was exacerbated by the leaks in the so-called iron curtain which pretty much crumbled in 1989, by which time Ronnie Reagan had already been battling several years with dementia.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/26/2013 6:58:07 AM   
Zonie63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Stability is not the natural order of things. In fact, history shows that stability such as it exists is usually a function of imperial rule, which, in turn, is a common form of hierarchy. To wit, there are few things messier in geopolitics than the demise of an empire. The collapse of the Hapsburgs, of the Ottoman Turks, of the Soviet Empire and the British Empire in Asia and Africa led to chronic wars and upheavals. Some uncomprehending commentators remind us that all empires end badly. Of course they do, but that is only after they have provided decades and centuries of relative peace.

Indeed, from the end of World War II until very recently, the United States has performed the role of a hegemon in world politics. America may be democratic at home, but abroad it has been hegemonic. That is, by some rough measure of international consent, it is America that has the responsibility to lead. America formed NATO in Europe, even as its Navy and Air Force exercise preponderant power in the Pacific Basin. And whenever there is a humanitarian catastrophe somewhere in the developing world, it is the United States that has been expected to organize the response. Periodically, America has failed. But in general, it would be a different, much more anarchic world without American hegemony.

Your thoughts??


It's an interesting article. It might have had more depth if it explored the transition of America from a relatively isolationist (yet expansionist) regional power to a global superpower and quasi "imperialist" state. What we aspired to be in the 19th century turned out to be quite different as events of the 20th century developed. The article seems to imply that American hegemony and role in the world was planned and intended, but a lot of it was due to mischance and America's reaction to new situations we had not really planned or prepared for.

A commonly held view within America is that we didn't really want world war or global hegemony; it was thrust upon us and we were given little choice. We seemed to be adapting well in the previous era when the Anglo-French Empires held hegemony over the world. Unlike Germany and Russia, we complemented Anglo-French hegemony, we did not compete or conflict with it. For this reason, America's "imperialism" became more of a hand-me-down type, where America's hegemony became something analogous to a substitute teacher taking over stewardship of someone else's empire. It was never truly our own "empire," if it was even an "empire" at all.

This also seemed to create a bit of an identity crisis for Americans themselves, transitioning from isolationist self-interest to becoming a member of a coalition where we're "not our own man" anymore. What we do, how we do it, and the reasons why we do it became all the more confused and inconsistent. We weren't really establishing our own hegemony as much as trying to prevent the world (under the old hegemony) from falling under a newer hegemony emanating from other powers. The central thrust of our policy was that if we didn't exert hegemony over a given territory or region, then it was believed that other powers (namely the Soviet Union) would exert their own hegemony over that territory.

American hegemony became justified mainly on that basis, not because we wanted to do it, but because the circumstances of the world gave us no other choice.

This article seems to be a validation of that viewpoint, suggesting that it would be a more anarchic world without American hegemony. I've found this to be a relatively common view within America when discussing our security perceptions and foreign policy. There's this view that "without us, the rest of the world would be totally fucked." There's a lot of "what if" involved in that perception. (e.g. "If we don't invade Iraq now, then Saddam Hussein will use WMDs to take over the Middle East and then he'll come after America.") No matter where in the world we've been involved, there was always this implied imperative that "if we don't do it, then worse things will happen."

There is some historical basis for this viewpoint. I posted a thread last week about a speech by John McCain in which he discusses U.S. foreign policy and why we should stay the course. He repeated the widely held view that if America had taken a more active role in world affairs just after World War I, instead of turning inward and isolationist, then we might have been in a better position to prevent World War II - or at least minimized the damage. As McCain and many other Americans reflect on that, it was viewed as a tragic mistake on America's part, and there's been this lingering guilt over not intervening and interfering with the rest of the world.

This article seems to reflect the same idea, that America really has no other moral choice but to continue exerting its hegemony over the world - or else it will become an anarchic world - or worse.

But I would question the underlying premise behind that. Is the world so chaotic and anarchistic that the whole world order would fall apart without American hegemony?

What has this done for stability within America? Foreign policy has become a very divisive issue for a lot of people. Even at a time when America's standard of living was improving by leaps and bounds, when people were comfortable, well-fed, and had the world at their fingertips, some Americans were protesting and rioting about what we were doing thousands of miles away on the other side of the planet.

Some could even cynically argue that America's foreign policy and imperialism have also existed as a way of distracting the American public from domestic issues and problems that may affect us internally. America's internal stability came about with a heavy price (another kind of hegemony), but because of the overall world situation, there has been a strong motivation to push for American unity and a stronger centralized government. In a perfect world, we wouldn't ordinarily need a military-industrial complex, the CIA, the NSA, and such a powerful state apparatus. Americans accept these things because they feel it's necessary, and out of a sense of civic responsibility, we don't really want to rock the boat or challenge any sacred cows.

Another thing that should be mentioned is that the world order has to operate much differently than it once did, mainly due to the advanced technologies and weapons of mass destruction which today's world has to contend with. If we didn't have the threat of nuclear war hanging over our heads, the world order might have taken a completely different direction.

In addition, unlike previous eras where empires were sovereign and could pretty much do whatever they wanted, we had pledged (at least on paper) to act as a responsible nation, to not engage in aggressive war, and to recognize universal declarations of human rights, etc. So, in order to maintain hegemony, we had to expend a great deal of energy and resources on making ourselves look good, which tempered our actions, methods, and objectives. Indeed, in order to maintain the illusion that the world is stable and not anarchic, we have to present ourselves as adhering to the rule of law. If we didn't, then the whole world system would be anarchic and chaotic, if it isn't already.

I suppose our hegemony might have been more stable if we really did try to be a true "empire." We could have played harder ball with the rest of the world. We could have used the three-year window when we had a nuclear advantage over the Soviets and created a lot of havoc in the world if we really wanted to. We could have made it impossible for China or Russia to recover from World War II, and we never would have had to deal with them as powerful rivals in later years. Once the major powers were out of the way, we could have mercilessly crushed any opposition anywhere in the world. The Middle East, Latin America, East Asia...there would have been no one left to oppose us. If we really wanted to be total imperialist assholes (if we could have lived with ourselves), then we could have seriously fucked the rest of the world and taken over. If we had, we probably wouldn't be in the situation we're in right now.

But we never really wanted to be an empire. We never really wanted to do all that stuff. This is where our identity crisis comes into the picture. We may want to be Dudley Do-Right, but sometimes we want to be Snidely Whiplash. The world can never really be sure what we are, with this Jekyll/Hyde effect at work in America's foreign policy.

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RE: Anarchy & Hegemony: A defense of American Imperialism - 4/26/2013 7:50:40 AM   
kdsub


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quote:


We may not have an "Empire" per se, but we certainly have quite a footprint across the globe via our military.


But only at the behest of the home country. We are there at their invitation and lease. Not by force of arms...Very different than empire building.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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