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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 8:41:46 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

Today, I got my "oh joy, spring is here" package, mostly containing antihistamines and some sundries.

100 Cetirizine pills, generic
100 Loratadine pills, name brand because of a sale
1 pack eye drops and nose spray with Chromoglycic acid, generic
1 pack eye drops and nose spray with Azelastine, name brand, again a sale
1 eye drops for dry and itching eyes, name brand, no good generic product available
1 liposomal eye spray, name brand with no substitute available
1 large bottle Providone-iodine, name brand because I like it
60 potassium gluconate capsules

all without prescription

I paid a bit less than 80 Euro (about 100$) and thought that was freaking expensive, but reading this thread is putting that into perspective.

For another bit of perspective, consider that with the start of 2013 the 10 Euro co-pay we had for the first doctors visit every quarter has been dropped, it was seen as an undue expense.

I buy 45 tablets of Cetirizine for $1.19 (at a dollar store) and I think I have seen the Loratadine there too (same price), there are various vitamins, pain meds & nose sprays also (I dont use nose sprays so not sure what ingredients).. I have to go to Walmart for my other allergy meds tho and have to show my ID, and I am limited to 2 packages/m (cuz that med is an ingredient used to make meth).. so some meds & vitamins here you can buy cheaply enough.. some people may not think to look at dollar stores for some of their meds tho..

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 9:14:31 AM   
calamitysandra


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I would most likely be one of them.

I was shocked the first time I found Paracetamol at Aldi in the Netherlands. The Netherlands is where I buy a good deal of my medicine, btw. I bring them back from our holiday.

OT, but why do you buy Cetirizine over Loratadine?

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 9:45:10 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra
OT, but why do you buy Cetirizine over Loratadine?

it works for my allergies, along with pseudoephedrine hydrochloride.. I know there are other new meds out but I hate trying new stuff and taking the risk that they wont work.. it took me a lot of experimenting to find meds that work & fast (for me).. I only take them when my allergies bug me, not all the time.. i might go months without taking any but spring hits and flowers do their thing, so then i might take them for a few weeks.. my allergies have evolved so now they really arent much of an issue (most of the time)..

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 9:50:49 AM   
cordeliasub


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Last August I had this set of odd dizzy flake out things that ended with a seizure that ruined the recliner I was sitting in (yeah I know, TMI). So we went to the ER. What followed were doctor trips, MRI's, the brain test with all the electrodes (my brain can't remember lol), contrast MRI, radiosurgery, steroids for Hashimotos Encephalopathy.....I will be dead before it's paid for I think. But at least now I can say "It's not a toomah" and mean it. :)

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:10:39 AM   
sexyred1


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OMG, I cannot even discuss this. The costs for medical care even with insurance in NJ and NY is ridiculous.


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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:13:50 AM   
Tkman117


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Thats why I love living in canada, our taxes may be higher but if we need something medically, it's always free and available. Well, technically it's not "free" since everyone contributes with taxes, but it sure helps prevent the medical industry from jacking up the prices in order to give people the ultimatum between being in serious debt or being dead in some cases.

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:29:51 AM   
Phydeaux


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10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care

Brief Analyses | Health


No. 649
Tuesday, March 24, 2009
by Scott Atlas

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers and academics alike are beating the drum for a far larger government rôle in health care. Much of the public assumes their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. However, before turning to government as the solution, some unheralded facts about America's health care system should be considered.

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.

Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries.[3] Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

Fact No. 4: Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians.[4] Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate and colon cancer:

Nine of 10 middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to less than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).
Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a pap smear, compared to less than 90 percent of Canadians.
More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a PSA test, compared to less than 1 in 6 Canadians (16 percent).
Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with less than 1 in 20 Canadians (5 percent).
Fact No. 5: Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."[5]


Fact No. 6: Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the U.K. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long - sometimes more than a year - to see a specialist, to have elective surgery like hip replacements or to get radiation treatment for cancer.[6] All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada.[7] In England, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.[8]

Fact No. 7: People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand and British adults say their health system needs either "fundamental change" or "complete rebuilding."[9]

Fact No. 8: Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the "health care system," more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared to only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).[10]

Fact No. 9: Americans have much better access to important new technologies like medical imaging than patients in Canada or the U.K. Maligned as a waste by economists and policymakers naïve to actual medical practice, an overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identified computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade.[11] [See the table.] The United States has 34 CT scanners per million Americans, compared to 12 in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has nearly 27 MRI machines per million compared to about 6 per million in Canada and Britain.[12]

Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16] [See the table.]

Conclusion. Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.

Scott W. Atlas, M.D., is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institution and a professor at the Stanford University Medical Center. A version of this article appeared previously in the February 18, 2009, Washington Times.


[1] Concord Working Group, "Cancer survival in five continents: a worldwide population-based study,.S. abe at responsible for theountries, in s chnologies, " Lancet Oncology, Vol. 9, No. 8, August 2008, pages 730 - 756; Arduino Verdecchia et al., "Recent Cancer Survival in Europe: A 2000-02 Period Analysis of EUROCARE-4 Data," Lancet Oncology, Vol. 8, No. 9, September 2007, pages 784 - 796.

[2] U.S. Cancer Statistics, National Program of Cancer Registries, U.S. Centers for Disease Control; Canadian Cancer Society/National Cancer Institute of Canada; also see June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S.," National Bureau of Economic Research, Working Paper No. 13429, September 2007. Available at http://www.nber.org/papers/w13429.

[3] Oliver Schoffski (University of Erlangen-Nuremberg), "Diffusion of Medicines in Europe," European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations, 2002. Available at http://www.amchampc.org/showFile.asp?FID=126. See also Michael Tanner, "The Grass is Not Always Greener: A Look at National Health Care Systems around the World," Cato Institute, Policy Analysis No. 613, March 18, 2008. Available at http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9272.

[4] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[5] Ibid.

[6] Nadeem Esmail, Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting Your Turn, (17th edition) Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada," Fraser Institute, Critical Issues Bulletin 2007, Studies in Health Care Policy, August 2008; Nadeem Esmail and Dominika Wrona "Medical Technology in Canada," Fraser Institute, August 21, 2008 ; Sharon Willcox et al., "Measuring and Reducing Waiting Times: A Cross-National Comparison Of Strategies," Health Affairs, Vol. 26, No. 4, July/August 2007, pages 1,078-87; June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."; M.V. Williams et al., "Radiotherapy Dose Fractionation, Access and Waiting Times in the Countries of the U.K.. in 2005," Royal College of Radiologists, Clinical Oncology, Vol. 19, No. 5, June 2007, pages 273-286.

[7] Nadeem Esmail and Michael A. Walker with Margaret Bank, "Waiting Your Turn 17th Edition: Hospital Waiting Lists In Canada 2007."

[8] "Hospital Waiting Times and List Statistics," Department of Health, England. Available at http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/Performancedataandstatistics/HospitalWaitingTimesandListStatistics/index.htm?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=186979&Rendition=Web.

[9] Cathy Schoen et al., "Toward Higher-Performance Health Systems: Adults' Health Care Experiences In Seven Countries, 2007," Health Affairs, Web Exclusive, Vol. 26, No. 6, October 31, 2007, pages w717-w734. Available at http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/26/6/w717.

[10] June O'Neill and Dave M. O'Neill, "Health Status, Health Care and Inequality: Canada vs. the U.S."

[11] Victor R. Fuchs and Harold C. Sox Jr., "Physicians' Views of the Relative Importance of 30 Medical Innovations," Health Affairs, Vol. 20, No. 5, September /October 2001, pages 30-42. Available at http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/reprint/20/5/30.pdf.

[12] OECD Health Data 2008, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Available at http://www.oecd.org/document/30/0,3343,en_2649_34631_12968734_1_1_1_37407,00.html.

[13] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," Economic Report of the President (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 2004), 108th Congress, 2nd Session H. Doc. 108-145, February 2004, Chapter 10, pages 190-193, available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/pdf/2004_erp.pdf; Tyler Cowen, New York Times, Oct. 5, 2006; Tom Coburn, Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie Turner, "Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation," Heritage Foundation, Lecture No. 1030, April 2007; Thomas Boehm, "How can we explain the American dominance in biomedical research and development?" Journal of Medical Marketing, Vol. 5, No. 2, 2005, pages 158-66, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, July 2002. Available at http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/erp/page/8649/download/47455/8649_ERP.pdf .

[14] Nicholas D. Kristof, "Franklin Delano Obama," New York Times, February 28, 2009. Available at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/opinion/01Kristof.html.

[15] The Nobel Prize Internet Archive. Available at http://almaz.com/nobel/medicine/medicine.html.

[16] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," 2004 Economic Report of the President.




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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:39:16 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

And the cross state plan the GOP tried promoting won't work. They talk about how someone in NJ could theoretically get a plan from let's say Arkansas that was a lot cheaper, but that leaves out one major point, health insurance in Arkansas is cheaper because the cost of medicine there is cheaper. If you get a plan from Arkansas, they will have to pay doctors in your area a lot more, which will increase the cost, and even over a pool of people, some in high cost states, some cheaper ones, it will still be expensive (not to mention the headach that you may live in NJ, and find out when the company denies your claim for cancer treatment, legal under arkansas law, you have no recourse).



How certain are you of this? Is Arkansas the only state where that's legal? I had cancer less than 2 years ago (fortunately, I was eligible for temporary Medicaid at the time, but no longer). I am now married and am covered under my husband's employee insurance, which is Blue Cross of Arkansas. Is there a way I could obtain legitimate proof that it's legal under Arkansas law for insurance companies to refuse to pay for cancer treatment? Since my bout with cancer was such a short time ago, I could still have a recurrence. I'm hoping such documentation along with my special circumstances might make me eligible to sign up on the health insurance exchanges. That way I can get coverage from somewhere other than Arkansas.


I did a quick search couldn't find anything for this except if cancer was a pre-existing condition (which I assume everone knows will no longer be the case when that provision of the Affordable Care Act kicks in January 2014.

I did see that currently under Arkansas law, maternity is not always covered.

http://www.insurance.arkansas.gov/Consumers/F_A_Q.htm

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:42:13 AM   
Tkman117


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All well and good, I commend Amercians and such for their advancements. But if you cant pay for treatments, then how does this stuff even matter? In canada, you could be the 1 % or the 99 %, but either way you can get access to healthcare. In the states, not every person within the 99% might all be capable of affording said healthcare, so who wins in the end really? Not to mention that in canada you might have to wait to see a doctor because it's arranged by priority, someone with a broken wrist is not going to be seen over someone who's going into cardiac arrest. Is the system perfect? Hell no, but atleast we cant be denied the right to live/live without an ailment even though our economic situation might not be the best. Thats the point I was trying to make. Whether or not the treatments in the states vs Canada are better is irrelevant, it all comes down to availability and human rights.

< Message edited by Tkman117 -- 5/2/2013 10:43:14 AM >

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:43:49 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

Fact No. 1: Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers.[1] Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Fact No. 2: Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians.[2] Breast cancer mortality is 9 percent higher, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher and colon cancer mortality among men is about 10 percent higher than in the United States.


I'd like to first see the rate of contracting cancer in various countries. Americans surviving at higher rates is less exciting if they also contract cancer at higher rates.

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:44:08 AM   
Phydeaux


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Did you miss the point where Americans have MORE coverage than canadians? (Facts #3 & #4)


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/2/2013 10:50:11 AM >

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:49:17 AM   
Phydeaux


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quote:

I'd like to first see the rate of contracting cancer in various countries. Americans surviving at higher rates is less exciting if they also contract cancer at higher rates.


Right, but the rates of contracting cancer have nothing to do with the health care system.
People also try to argue that because life expectancy in Switzerland is higher than in the US, the medical profession in switzerland must be better than in the US.

Premature babies due to drug habits; premature deaths due to drug wars, (or hell any war), deaths due to obesity, deaths due to an illegal immigrant underculture do not reflect the efficacy of the health care system.

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 10:55:59 AM   
kalikshama


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I disagree. I think the US system sucks when it comes to preventative care and that it's ridiculous to focus on mammogram screenings, for example, and not prevention. After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

< Message edited by kalikshama -- 5/2/2013 10:58:20 AM >


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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 11:12:23 AM   
Phydeaux


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And do you have any "facts" to support your opinion?

Do you understand that "mammograms" are in fact a form of prevention?
It is a commonly held trope that the United States does nothing for preventive care. However, in an insurance system they very carefully weigh the benefits of preventive care vs treatment. This is why "well body" treatments, prenatal care, vaccinations are fully funded under virtually all insurance plans.

Now, it is true that the government has removed the requirement that healthcare is *your* responsibility, and made it so that anyone can show up at an emergency room. The government has made it impossible for hospitals to screen out illegal immigrants.

But this is primarily a failure of the government, and not a failure of the health care industry.

Government has said - you are entitled to emergency room treatment, but not to preventive treatment. Idiotic - yes. Could the government fund clinics for preventive care - well yes, yes they could.

Will they? No.
The problem is that right now the government is funding only a fraction of cost of the exisiting care. The fact is that the government has removed millions of people from Medicare supplimental insurance programs, dumping them into the medicare plans. And then added millions of more people by expanding Medicare and Medicaid eligibility.

And anyone that believes this will result in lower costs (or ever could) is .. crazy. And a democrat.


< Message edited by Phydeaux -- 5/2/2013 11:13:09 AM >

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 11:47:56 AM   
cloudboy


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Straight from the Scott Atlas at HOOVER INSTITUTE.

We don't have paid fact checkers here on the CMMB.

What direct experiences do you have with getting health care here in the USA?

Have you tried to get it without insurance? How did that go?

Have the bills and fees charged made sense to you?

I'm sorry, but my own personal experiences make me suspect that the health care industry in the US is a kind of racket. (Namely, a money making machine.)

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 5:03:56 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yep, going to the ER for food poisoning is part of the problem. You're not going to die from it - why go.

Had you gone to an urgent care facility or a doctors office the cost would have been significantly less.

Obama care is encouraging the consolidation of dr's offices into mega corps. (ie., hospitals are buying up individual practices). Destruction of the health care industry.



Excuse my guffaw while you describe food poisoning as not being a potential killer.

http://careman.wordpress.com/2011/02/23/food-poisoning-cause-5000-unnecessary-deaths-a-year-in-the-usa/

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 5:31:09 PM   
playfulotter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tkman117

All well and good, I commend Amercians and such for their advancements. But if you cant pay for treatments, then how does this stuff even matter? In canada, you could be the 1 % or the 99 %, but either way you can get access to healthcare. In the states, not every person within the 99% might all be capable of affording said healthcare, so who wins in the end really? Not to mention that in canada you might have to wait to see a doctor because it's arranged by priority, someone with a broken wrist is not going to be seen over someone who's going into cardiac arrest. Is the system perfect? Hell no, but atleast we cant be denied the right to live/live without an ailment even though our economic situation might not be the best. Thats the point I was trying to make. Whether or not the treatments in the states vs Canada are better is irrelevant, it all comes down to availability and human rights.



That is why our monthly insurance rates each month for healthcare are so high...so many can't pay and never do for the treatment they received and it gets passed along to those of us who can pay.....for now at least... but pretty soon a lot of us won't be able to either if rates keep going up!

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 5/2/2013 5:32:12 PM >


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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 7:32:11 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


We read all the time about how health care in the USA is the most expensive in the world. In this thread I seek to find examples from your own life experiences to demonstrate this point.

Here are my two examples:

(1) After Thanksgiving I experienced some severe abdominal pain and figured I was about to get food poisoning. I end up at the ER.

At the ER they take my blood, run some tests, administer an IV, and give me an anti-nausea shot. (That was fucking amazing.) Then I get a small can of ginger ale, crackers, and a discharge. This all takes 2 hours. The charge: $985.00.

(2) I went to the ENT b/c my sinuses have been blocked upl. The ENT uses an endoscope to look into my nose remarking, "yes, it looks puffy back there." The appointment lasted 10 minutes, tops.

The cost: $785.00. The Dr. charged about $680.00 to use the endoscope for about 40 seconds to look into my nose.

Two basic items of health care -- helping some one with food poisoning and looking at one's sinuses during a 8 minute consultation --- and huge sums of money are owed.

What crazy shit have you experienced?


This is not my experience....I know it is for many, if not most.

When I go in, there's a nominal fee, I pay it and things get done.

Sometimes they cut holes, sometimes they hand be a bucket of pills and say "don't do that again" but, I've never been hit with horrendous bills.

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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 8:09:55 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phydeaux

Yep, going to the ER for food poisoning is part of the problem. You're not going to die from it - why go.

Had you gone to an urgent care facility or a doctors office the cost would have been significantly less.

Obama care is encouraging the consolidation of dr's offices into mega corps. (ie., hospitals are buying up individual practices). Destruction of the health care industry.


Where did you get your medical degree?



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RE: Eye-Popping Health Care Costs - 5/2/2013 8:13:41 PM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I disagree. I think the US system sucks when it comes to preventative care and that it's ridiculous to focus on mammogram screenings, for example, and not prevention. After all, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.



Oh, so true! "Early detection is the best prevention." Uh huh.

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