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Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..." th... - 5/1/2013 6:06:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		In that thread, Tweakabelle lays out her recommendations for the West to work towards ending terrorism against the West.

I claim her recommendations legitimizes terrorism as an acceptable response.

GotSteel supports the idea that Tweaks recommendations aren't legitimizing terrorism as an acceptable response.

In Post#12 of that thread, Tweak put forth this:
    quote:

    Terrorism is a reaction to real, pre-exisiting problems that usually is deployed as a last resort - terrorism operates where there is a failure of politics to resolve these problems. I believe grasping this point is imperative if the issue of terrorism is going to be understood. Understanding terrorism and why it happens is an essential pre-requisite to solving the problem.

    A quick glance at the operational areas of major terrorist groups in recent years confirms this claim eg. Ireland, Palestine, Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Chechnya, Iraq ..... In each case, the terrorist's community was perceived to be under attack or occupation by hostile foreign forces. Religious or political ideologies enter the picture as they offer analyses that make sense to the people under attack, and solutions that appeal to the same group. It doesn't matter whether these analyses and solutions make sense to outsiders, there is no need for them to do so. All that matters is that they make sense to the aggrieved parties.

    Ultimately, this perspective is an optimistic one as it offers as solution to the problem of terrorism and a practical strategy to marginalise terrorist groups and ideologies. By focusing on addressing the underlying political issues as part of an overall response to terrorism, it is possible to separate the terrorists and their support base, which leads inevitably to the demise of terrorists as a danger to other people and as an active player in the power politics of the region in question.


In Post#28, she writes:
    quote:

    I am saying that there are real political conditions that cause it, and if you are serious about wanting to stop it, then those conditions have to be understood and addressed. Common sense really


I take those to mean that because of some political condition is true, it results in terrorism. If this were a simple ladder logic rung, there would be no question. But, it isn't. I won't even argue that the US has done some pretty stupid things in the ME that have bitten us in the ass (and I do believe there are things we've done that haven't bitten us in the ass yet, but will). If there was no other choice to deal with the situation (the ladder logic idea) other than terrorism, then terrorism is an acceptable response to the political condition. I disagree that terrorism is the only choice in the current state of affairs.

Tweakabelle adds in Post#80:
    quote:

    Thus far we two explanations for terrorism. These are:
    1. it is an outcome of political failure to deal with underlying political and social problems; and
    2. it is an outcome of certain religions/ideologies (if I understand WOTF's position correctly)

    This brings us to the question of solutions or appropriate responses to terrorism. What do people see as a solution/appropriate response to this issue?

    I can only offer measures that are consistent with the analysis that I have advanced consistently. The main measures I would like to see are:
    1. withdrawal of all Western armies from the Middle East region;
    2. force Israel to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians on the basis of Two States and UN resolution 242; and
    3. cease all arms sales to the region.
    All of these measures should be part of an integrated overall strategy to withdraw support. from unrepresentative Govts in the region, promotion of democracy and human rights and making the entire region a nuclear weapons free zone. All of these measures are do-able within a relatively short time span. They will have the effect of removing the West from the firing line and encouraging the people of the region to solve their own problems without outside interference. They will also separate the terrorists from their support base and effectively marginalise them. Where they agree to renounce violence they should be encouraged to enter into the political process of their country.

    Until the threat of terrorism is finally removed by the effect of these measures, terrorism ought to be regarded as a policing/security matter, (NOT a military issue) with closer co-operation between countries' police forces, info sharing and punitive sentencing the main points of counter-terrorist strategy. It is imperative that no existing rights be diminished/abolished - our rights and values are what separate us from the terrorists and they ought to be strengthened and emphasised, not reduced.


    It is up to the people of the region to decide what kind of Govts they have. The role of the West should be to foster good relations trade and matters of mutual benefit with those Govts that reflect the wishes of their populations and to deny active support to those than don't.

    All the elements I have mentioned above ought to be Western policy in any event, that is they ought to be enacted whether anti-Western terrorism exists or not.


In case no one else noticed, the three recommendations tweaks wants to see happen do not include those who are perpetrating the terrorist attacks to stop taking terrorist actions. That means, it's the US's fault that we are under terror attacks, not the fault of the terrorists.

Terrorists have a choice to use terror or not. While they may have very good reasons for being upset, there are ways outside of terrorism to express that opposition. If Netanyahu were to come to the US, would it be acceptable to attack him or his entourage (even though it would be occurring on US soil, I would not take that to be anti-US terrorism), or to peacefully protest?

If a people or group who aren't perpetrating the terrorism are the ones that have to act in order to stop the terrorism, then the implication is that the terror attacks are acceptable and justified.



< Message edited by DesideriScuri -- 5/1/2013 6:37:38 AM >

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 6:16:08 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		May want to check your links. I dont even recall posting on that thread. And the links you provided are all tweak's.

Honestly, I know you are enthralled by me. But you are going to make me blush!

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 6:21:43 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Bloody hell DS?, what are you attacking, the person, the opinion, or the subject, why start a whole new topic, and THEN get the names wrong???


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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 6:39:55 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
May want to check your links. I dont even recall posting on that thread. And the links you provided are all tweak's.
Honestly, I know you are enthralled by me. But you are going to make me blush!


My apologies. I referred to Tweak 3 times out of the 5 I meant to. It's probably those butt shots you keep using as profile pics.

I have edited my OP to correct it.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 6:41:39 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Bloody hell DS?, what are you attacking, the person, the opinion, or the subject, why start a whole new topic, and THEN get the names wrong???


I used Tazzy's name 2 out of the 5 times I meant to use Tweak's. Completely my fault. The OP has been corrected.

And, the opinion is what I disagree with.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 6:52:14 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
May want to check your links. I dont even recall posting on that thread. And the links you provided are all tweak's.
Honestly, I know you are enthralled by me. But you are going to make me blush!


My apologies. I referred to Tweak 3 times out of the 5 I meant to. It's probably those butt shots you keep using as profile pics.

I have edited my OP to correct it.


Thank you for the edit.

You know, you can hide my butt shot

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 8:16:05 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

That means, it's the US's fault that we are under terror attacks, not the fault of the terrorists.


And here's where you've made an unsupported leap.

When a someone gets sexually assaulted, it's not their fault it happened. When the assault is successful, that's also not their fault. However, most employ a strategy of risk management to minimize the chances it will happen. Those strategies can be improved. Similarly, many choose to offer resistance, which reduces the probability of an assault on them being successful. In short, they can influence their own lives in a manner that is positive. Or they can sit on their asses and say "but it shouldn't happen, and these people shouldn't do it!", which clearly isn't doing anyone much good, save perhaps the attackers.

The USA has made choices, and continues to make choices, that pessimize outcomes. That strategy can be improved. Now, sure, we could also have a discussion as to whether or not the USA is to blame for whatever. But we don't need to. That's not what she's been saying. She's been saying the USA can act in a manner that improves its own situation, rather than being a passive victim that does nothing to improve things (and often acts to aggravate them).

Fact of life: shit happens.

Question: what do we do about it?

Answer: we deal with it, as best we can.

Implication: you could do a whole lot better.

quote:

Terrorists have a choice to use terror or not.


Yup. They made it, and presumably it was the best choice they could see.

Your move. Escalate or resolve?

quote:

While they may have very good reasons for being upset, there are ways outside of terrorism to express that opposition.


That thought has probably occured to all of them, just like it's occured to some that executions aren't needed to express opposition to serious crimes.

How do you propose the average uneducated person in the ME express their opposition?

Most importantly, how do you propose they make headway?

quote:

If a people or group who aren't perpetrating the terrorism are the ones that have to act in order to stop the terrorism, then the implication is that the terror attacks are acceptable and justified.


No, that conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

In closing, I would like to ask you a question: if the president of Pakistan authorized an attack on par with the Boston marathon bombing once every three days and carried that out successfully for nine years, how long would you sit by, peacefully protesting it, before you hit Pakistan hard? And, if your gov't refused to do anything, or was unable to do anything, how long would you tolerate that before you picked other ways to get back at them or try to deter them? Generic you, here. As an American, what do you think your people would do?

Because I know what you did the last time 3.000 of your people were killed; I saw your streets brimming with hate and rage.

That's how many of their people have died in drone strikes in Pakistan— 160 Martin Richards, dead, at your hands.

So... what... a Facebook protest? Harsh language? T-shirts? Patience, high hopes and wish for a pony?

You know as well as I do, you would soak the ground in blood for ten years. Again.

Now, expectations having been set straight, who can solve this?

Lucky for you... you can; you have a choice.

Tweakabelle outlined it for you:

Terror or solutions?

I wish you well,
— Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 5/1/2013 8:18:08 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 9:05:39 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline
quote:

Because I know what you did the last time 3.000 of your people were killed; I saw your streets brimming with hate and rage.



Really? I know there were some jackasses that flew off the handle, but I didn't see anything like you do in the middle east (hoards burning American flags and chanting death to America)

I didn't see large American groups burning Korans and dancing on the graves of Muslims. Yes there were isolated incidents like that asshat preacher in Florida trying to have a Koran burning, and he was roundly denounced.

I just take offense to 'streets brimming with hate and rage'

I saw a lot of fear, melancholy and weariness.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 9:24:13 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		DS,

I have problems with both tweak's and your assessment. I will outline it here:

While you point out the logical ladder flaw of tweaks---political climate = terror attacks therefore it is the fault of the US. So, in theory, if we get nice nice with the middle east, the terror attacks will stop. And as you point it out, it isn't that simple. What tweak misses is that the terrorist groups are a select group of hyper radicals. No amount of negotiation will ever satiate them. There expressed goal is the murder of infidels. While the US is a target, there are many others including less radical Muslims. This evil is what tweak misses.


However, this is what you miss:

While tweak over simplifies it, she has a valid point with the political action. Aswad says it best when he refers to risk management. The reality is our political influence in the Middle East isn't a direct creator of terrorism. It creates an unhealthy climate which frustrates the ordinary Arab/Muslim. This in turn makes the radicals look somewhat justified and sympathetic. While the radicals are nuts, the average Akmed on the street is going to support them over us because of the cultural and personal similarities and the negative impact we have on the average guy. They see this as defending their turf. So, maybe they get into bed with a bunch of murders, at least the murders are killing the enemy and not his family.


While getting our nose out of the sandbox won't change the opinion of the radicals, it will start to erode their base of support for American aggression. And, if we truly make a humanitarian effort in the ME without the strings of oil pillaging and supporting vicious despot, we might erode the bond of kinship the average person feels with the radicals. Eventually, if we have a healthy relationship with the average Arab, they might begin to self police and root out the radicalism on their own.

Taking a less aggressive stance and a more defensive yet open stance will change the conditions that favor terrorist action.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 10:08:51 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
May want to check your links. I dont even recall posting on that thread. And the links you provided are all tweak's.
Honestly, I know you are enthralled by me. But you are going to make me blush!

My apologies. I referred to Tweak 3 times out of the 5 I meant to. It's probably those butt shots you keep using as profile pics.
I have edited my OP to correct it.

Thank you for the edit.
You know, you can hide my butt shot


Why would I want to do that?!? I like those butt shots!


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 10:09:00 AM   
WantsOfTheFlesh


Posts: 1226
Joined: 3/3/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
In that thread, Tweakabelle lays out her recommendations for the West to work towards ending terrorism against the West.

I claim her recommendations legitimizes terrorism as an acceptable response.

In Post#12 of that thread, Tweak put forth this:
    quote:

    Terrorism is a reaction to real, pre-exisiting problems that usually is deployed as a last resort - terrorism operates where there is a failure of politics to resolve these problems. I believe grasping this point is imperative if the issue of terrorism is going to be understood. Understanding terrorism and why it happens is an essential pre-requisite to solving the problem.


i dislike tha same views coz tweak & other folks try to pass off understanding terrorism as meaning tha issues tha terrorists seek to highlight or justify their violence with must be fixed by tha western(?) nation tha terrorists attack. assuming that makes out tha terrorist acts are partly justified coz theyre supposedly created by tha oppressive actions of a big powerful nation & this target of terrorism is then obligated to fix tha supposed injustice.

what happens when terrorist groups have goals impossible for a state to provide for like tha adoption of sharia all round tha world & tha goals tha groups have are not positive to tha folks that support them? i'm talking about taliban type regimes that groups like al qaeda want to create. will ordinary folks tha terrorist groups recruit from & get funds from be less radicalised under islamist regimes that tha ordinary muslim folks voted for in the arab spring? nah they wont. could get much worse even if america makes huge compromise.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/1/2013 10:12:59 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 10:19:32 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
- terrorism operates where there is a failure of politics to resolve these problems.

Terrorism occurs where losers refuse to admit to be defeated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
Understanding terrorism and why it happens is an essential pre-requisite to solving the problem.

That is reasoning from the - often false - premisse that those who rule us desire to end the terrorism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If there was no other choice to deal with the situation (the ladder logic idea) other than terrorism, then terrorism is an acceptable response to the political condition.

I disagree: terrorism is never an acceptable response.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
Thus far we two explanations for terrorism. These are:
1. it is an outcome of political failure to deal with underlying political and social problems; and
2. it is an outcome of certain religions/ideologies (if I understand WOTF's position correctly)

3. It provides an excuse for certain actions.
4. It is a cover for the drugs trade.
5. It is misdirection.

If I put my mind to it, I am sure to come up with some more reasons to foment terror attacks.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
This brings us to the question of solutions or appropriate responses to terrorism. What do people see as a solution/appropriate response to this issue?

The people who rule us are not truly interested in what the people think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
The main measures I would like to see are:
1. withdrawal of all Western armies from the Middle East region;
2. force Israel to conclude a just peace with the Palestinians on the basis of Two States and UN resolution 242; and
3. cease all arms sales to the region.

1-3: aint gonna happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
All of these measures should be part of an integrated overall strategy to withdraw support. from unrepresentative Govts in the region, promotion of democracy and human rights and making the entire region a nuclear weapons free zone.

Umm, those are the very reasons for the whackamole attrition wars that the USA is engaged in, especially the promotion of democracy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
All of these measures are do-able within a relatively short time span. They will have the effect of removing the West from the firing line

The West does not want to remove themselves from the firing line.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
and encouraging the people of the region to solve their own problems without outside interference.

They have been solving their own problems since Islam taught them to rape and murder their own females. I rather suspect that some people disagree with their solutions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
They will also separate the terrorists from their support base and effectively marginalise them. Where they agree to renounce violence they should be encouraged to enter into the political process of their country.

You are a genius. Here I am, wanting to rule all of humanity but not knowing how to manage that, and there you are with the perfect solution: simply start terrorizing people until they encourage me to enter the political process and desire me to rule them all! Who do I have to bomb first? (Incidentally, I appoint you as my prime bomb layer executive and order you to set up a bomb laying organization. Of course I myself must keep my hands clean and I will deny ever having given you this mission if you happen to be apprehended.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tweakabelle
our rights and values are what separate us from the terrorists and they ought to be strengthened and emphasised, not reduced.

I agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If a people or group who aren't perpetrating the terrorism are the ones that have to act in order to stop the terrorism, then the implication is that the terror attacks are acceptable and justified.

Quite.

_____________________________

"I tend to pay attention when Rule speaks" - Aswad

"You are sweet, kind, and ever so smart, Rule. You ALWAYS stretch my mind and make me think further than I might have on my own" - Duskypearls

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 10:56:53 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
That means, it's the US's fault that we are under terror attacks, not the fault of the terrorists.

And here's where you've made an unsupported leap.
When a someone gets sexually assaulted, it's not their fault it happened. When the assault is successful, that's also not their fault. However, most employ a strategy of risk management to minimize the chances it will happen. Those strategies can be improved. Similarly, many choose to offer resistance, which reduces the probability of an assault on them being successful. In short, they can influence their own lives in a manner that is positive. Or they can sit on their asses and say "but it shouldn't happen, and these people shouldn't do it!", which clearly isn't doing anyone much good, save perhaps the attackers.
The USA has made choices, and continues to make choices, that pessimize outcomes. That strategy can be improved. Now, sure, we could also have a discussion as to whether or not the USA is to blame for whatever. But we don't need to. That's not what she's been saying. She's been saying the USA can act in a manner that improves its own situation, rather than being a passive victim that does nothing to improve things (and often acts to aggravate them).
Fact of life: shit happens.
Question: what do we do about it?
Answer: we deal with it, as best we can.
Implication: you could do a whole lot better.
quote:

Terrorists have a choice to use terror or not.

Yup. They made it, and presumably it was the best choice they could see.
Your move. Escalate or resolve?
quote:

While they may have very good reasons for being upset, there are ways outside of terrorism to express that opposition.

That thought has probably occured to all of them, just like it's occured to some that executions aren't needed to express opposition to serious crimes.
How do you propose the average uneducated person in the ME express their opposition?
Most importantly, how do you propose they make headway?
quote:

If a people or group who aren't perpetrating the terrorism are the ones that have to act in order to stop the terrorism, then the implication is that the terror attacks are acceptable and justified.

No, that conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.
In closing, I would like to ask you a question: if the president of Pakistan authorized an attack on par with the Boston marathon bombing once every three days and carried that out successfully for nine years, how long would you sit by, peacefully protesting it, before you hit Pakistan hard? And, if your gov't refused to do anything, or was unable to do anything, how long would you tolerate that before you picked other ways to get back at them or try to deter them? Generic you, here. As an American, what do you think your people would do?
Because I know what you did the last time 3.000 of your people were killed; I saw your streets brimming with hate and rage.
That's how many of their people have died in drone strikes in Pakistan— 160 Martin Richards, dead, at your hands.
So... what... a Facebook protest? Harsh language? T-shirts? Patience, high hopes and wish for a pony?
You know as well as I do, you would soak the ground in blood for ten years. Again.
Now, expectations having been set straight, who can solve this?
Lucky for you... you can; you have a choice.
Tweakabelle outlined it for you:
Terror or solutions?
I wish you well,
— Aswad.


There is a huge bone of contention, from what I've read (and from Tweak's past comments over the last year or so I've been on CM) that one huge reason we are reviled in the ME is over our support of Israel.

That isn't going to change. So, if they are attacking the US because the US back's Israel and is willing to protect Israel, then, terror attacks for that reason specifically will continue, won't work, and will result in US aggression. That is not to say the US should, or will always back Israel when Israel is in the wrong, but attacking us over our backing of Israel isn't going to work.

Now, as far as our misguided forays into ME politics aside from Israel, politics should be the tool to solve that problem. We should get out of the ME. Absolutely agree with that, but that has nothing to do with terrorist attacks. And, you also have to understand that if Pakistan were to do what you outlined, we could go to war with Pakistan. But, we are not attacking a country, but a terrorist group that hides among the Pakistani citizenry.

Now, I'm not sure if drone strikes on terrorists are, themselves, terrorism, but that may be defined by whose viewpoint you are taking. I can easily see how an innocent citizen would consider them terror attacks. That might be something we need to have a discussion about in the US.

I do not disagree tht the US has made many errors in ME policy. But, if the biggest issue they have with us is our support of Israel, well, if they are going to turn to aggression, it will likely be met with aggression. If diplomacy and politics were used, they would be met - at least by us - with diplomacy and politics.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 11:05:45 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
DS,
I have problems with both tweak's and your assessment. I will outline it here:
While you point out the logical ladder flaw of tweaks---political climate = terror attacks therefore it is the fault of the US. So, in theory, if we get nice nice with the middle east, the terror attacks will stop. And as you point it out, it isn't that simple. What tweak misses is that the terrorist groups are a select group of hyper radicals. No amount of negotiation will ever satiate them. There expressed goal is the murder of infidels. While the US is a target, there are many others including less radical Muslims. This evil is what tweak misses.
However, this is what you miss:
While tweak over simplifies it, she has a valid point with the political action. Aswad says it best when he refers to risk management. The reality is our political influence in the Middle East isn't a direct creator of terrorism. It creates an unhealthy climate which frustrates the ordinary Arab/Muslim. This in turn makes the radicals look somewhat justified and sympathetic. While the radicals are nuts, the average Akmed on the street is going to support them over us because of the cultural and personal similarities and the negative impact we have on the average guy. They see this as defending their turf. So, maybe they get into bed with a bunch of murders, at least the murders are killing the enemy and not his family.
While getting our nose out of the sandbox won't change the opinion of the radicals, it will start to erode their base of support for American aggression. And, if we truly make a humanitarian effort in the ME without the strings of oil pillaging and supporting vicious despot, we might erode the bond of kinship the average person feels with the radicals. Eventually, if we have a healthy relationship with the average Arab, they might begin to self police and root out the radicalism on their own.
Taking a less aggressive stance and a more defensive yet open stance will change the conditions that favor terrorist action.


I didn't miss it. I agree we need to gtfo of the ME and let the citizens determine what their countries are going to be. But, we are still the "World's Police" and we will not allow the ME countries that are run by radicals to eradicate Israel. I certainly hope we will make it clear that we will not stand idly by and will protect, say, Gaza, if Israel is attempting to eradicate Gaza. I don't know that this is clear cut (and, man, I sure hope it's true, too).


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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 11:12:39 AM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
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Status: offline 		I am not saying we need to abandone isreal, but we do need to pull on the leash, maybe even support the creation of the palestinian state.

However, we need to stop the world police shit there. Sometimes the best offense is a strong defense. worry about the terrorist here and our borders. As long as we are inserting ourselves there the climate will exist for terrorism. Back out militarily and let the healing begin. Our push should be educational. The more the peoples of the middle east are educated and have economic opportunity the less this radicalism will exist or function. However, if we keep things disrupted and in a state of uncertainty, we are fucked.

Speaking of which, our own dumbing down here is doing just a wonderful job of radicalizing the US

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 11:59:01 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I am not saying we need to abandone isreal, but we do need to pull on the leash, maybe even support the creation of the palestinian state.


Didn't we sign onto a two-state solution road map before? I thought we were in support of a Palestinian state.

I asked something before, but no one answered. How can it be a two-state solution when Gaza and the West Bank are clearly not connected? Shouldn't that be a three-state solution?

quote:

However, we need to stop the world police shit there. Sometimes the best offense is a strong defense. worry about the terrorist here and our borders. As long as we are inserting ourselves there the climate will exist for terrorism. Back out militarily and let the healing begin. Our push should be educational. The more the peoples of the middle east are educated and have economic opportunity the less this radicalism will exist or function. However, if we keep things disrupted and in a state of uncertainty, we are fucked.
Speaking of which, our own dumbing down here is doing just a wonderful job of radicalizing the US


I completely agree with pulling out of the ME (with the caveat that we let it be known that we will defend Israel if it's the victim of an attack). Does the US have a responsibility to educate the average citizen of the ME?


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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 12:38:44 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		Do we have a responsibility to educate? not at all.... Should we? yes... We should support the economic growth and enlightment of the population. Why? because it is the fastest way to bring stability and dissolve the radicalism. Strategically, it is better for the US and Isreal to have arabs who are busy working and trying to earn the good life for their families than unemployed pissed of arabs railing about religion and politics.

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 1:44:56 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
Do we have a responsibility to educate? not at all.... Should we? yes... We should support the economic growth and enlightment of the population. Why? because it is the fastest way to bring stability and dissolve the radicalism. Strategically, it is better for the US and Isreal to have arabs who are busy working and trying to earn the good life for their families than unemployed pissed of arabs railing about religion and politics.


I don't disagree with your statements at all. What role should we play, though? How should we support their economic growth and elightenment? How do we do it without being once again cast as intruding on their sovereignty?

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 1:45:38 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Fact of life: shit happens.

Question: what do we do about it?

Answer: we deal with it, as best we can.

Implication: you could do a whole lot better.



DesideriScuri - this above pretty much sums it up. I think terrorism (as the term is currently understood) has been a fact of life for much of human history. It comes and goes in various forms and guises, at different points in history, motivated, at least by name, by different political/religious/ethnic and who knows what other reasons. And within each time period of human history, those who engaged in "Reign of Terror" type activities always feel they are in the "right" - either because they are righting a wrong, preventing a wrong, or some other ideological stance. I read the prior discussion as simply being that of "if terrorism exists", then "what are the appropriate responses".

Doesn't seem very complicated, or quite frankly, even controversial to me.....

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RE: Spinoff from the "Don't blame religion..."... - 5/1/2013 1:52:09 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
Fact of life: shit happens.
Question: what do we do about it?
Answer: we deal with it, as best we can.
Implication: you could do a whole lot better.

DesideriScuri - this above pretty much sums it up. I think terrorism (as the term is currently understood) has been a fact of life for much of human history. It comes and goes in various forms and guises, at different points in history, motivated, at least by name, by different political/religious/ethnic and who knows what other reasons. And within each time period of human history, those who engaged in "Reign of Terror" type activities always feel they are in the "right" - either because they are righting a wrong, preventing a wrong, or some other ideological stance. I read the prior discussion as simply being that of "if terrorism exists", then "what are the appropriate responses".
Doesn't seem very complicated, or quite frankly, even controversial to me.....


What is being called for, however, is for the US to back away from those who are being aggressors. If our support of Israel is the main driver of the ire, then what? We aren't going to stop that. If states don't back down from their "erase Israel off the map" rhetoric, how is it we should stop backing them up?

There was a call for a region to determine the end results. Guess what. Israel would be wiped off the map, and that is unacceptable. So, we aren't going to back down from that.

I'm of the mind that we let everyone know to leave Israel the fuck alone, tell Israel to stay within it's borders and then to tell everyone else to solve their own fucking problems else we'll come in and solve them and it won't be pretty.

A "sea of glass" isn't an acceptable solution to me, but it's starting to look like that's the only solution that would actually be effective. Saying that, I still find it unacceptable, so I don't and wouldn't support that action.


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Profile   Post #: 20
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