quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
thank you for making me smile:)75 % ofthe voices in my head laughed

• A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  
• Personal Responsibility
  
• Help for the truly needy
  
• Limited Government
  
• Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
  

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

Just a note on the various polls that people are citing in support of a variety of things - what do any of these polls tell us about how senators from gun-toting states are going to vote unless the poll was specific to that state?? And North Dakota and Alaska get the same number of senators as New York - despite the obvious difference in population. Oddly, on this matter, the senate is actually operating exactly as it was meant to - preventing small population states from having policies forced on them by more populous ones.

Can someone point me to polls in the states where Democratic senators voted against the gun bill? (These would be the following: Arkansas, Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, and Nevada). In other words, what percentage of gun owners in those states think guns should be regulated. I suspect......not very many.....

National polls are not actually helpful when trying to decipher the senate vote.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin
The shotgun thing is not exactly a correct opinion. First of all it has to be a 12 gauge to be ideal and that depends on who and where. It's easy to aim but for most women its not easy to handle where as an AR 15 is because of its low recoil. Also contrary to what Biden said, the AR 15 is quite accurate. The ideal gun also depends on the situation. If you're caught up in the middle of an all out riot, you might want an AR 15 with 30 or 40 round magazines. There are all kinds of situations an AR 15 might be best. There are all kinds of situations a 12 gauge might be best. There is no "one magic gun" ideal for all situations.

Yes shotguns are more accurate at home defence ranges than any rifle. The discussion is about home defence and it is indisputable that a shotgun, in any gauge, is a better home defence weapon than any rifle in the hands of all but an expert shooter. The intimidation factor cannot be discounted and the ability to fire and hit a target at close range without a lot of practice makes it by far the best option for most people.

It's not indisputable. I don't know why you need to be an expert to accurately shoot a rifle at close range. What I can't figure out is how would you miss. It's not absolute and 12 gauge is best. More accurate at home defense range ?? That means close range. Anything is more accurate at close range including a handgun which is likely an ideal choice for home defense because a long gun will be bulky. The sound of a pump shotgun certainly has an intimidation factor but based on looks a military looking rifle, especially an AK type with one of those 30 round magazines would seem to me to be just as intimidating if not more so. But here we are getting hung up on looks. Maybe you should try putting a bayonet on that shotgun and see how scary lookin it is then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

Oh good grief DomKen,


Have you ever tried to shoot anything at close range with a rifle ?


Yes and frankly I'm not seeing how you miss even a small target but I guess you must be one of those experts who can hit something at 10 to 15 feet with a rifle.

quote:

Far be it from me to waste my time questioning the wisdom and expertise of you and Biden. I guess it must be irrelevant that most women and even some men can't handle the recoil of a 12 gauge very well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm going to point out yet again that the question was which is better for a non expert. There is simply no question the shotgun is superior to any rifle at close ranges in stress situations. To claim otherwise is beyond absurd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic

Really. I've been an NRA Certified Firearms instructor for over four years in rifle, shotgun, and pistol. Each person is unique and each firearm is unique. A Stoeger Upland side-by-side shotgun is not a Mossberg 930 and I've had women shoot both. Both do not want to shoot either again. But they will pickup the SKS and plink with it continuously while smiling and laughing. Again some newbies may take to shotguns quite well, but not all, I've yet to see one do it without a lot of practice and instruction. I have seen both men and women, and disfigured and/or crippled vets handle rifles quite well on their first go (for vets it's their first time firing a rifle after receiving their injuries).

Rifles in .223 and 7.62x39 are soft shooting. And yes shot-for-shot shotguns are superior within twenty yards but if the shooter fears firing the weapon to begin with and won't practice with it out of discomfort or lack of desire, it can be more a liability than an aid. But hey DomKen you have all the answer in your mind. You seem to think all nonexperts are monolithic homogenous people without any variation. But anyone who actually has shot both rifles and shotguns, and has instructed folks on their use and handling, knows that a beginner will fair better with a pipsqueak rifle caliber (.223 or 7.62x39) right out of the gate typically.

Granted a lot of it can depend on the bias of the instructor and their own personal feelings on the matter. But how do I love taking grown men, putting a reduced load 12 gauge 00' buckshot shell in the gun and watch them freak out and ask to keep shooting the rifle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm going to point out yet again that the question was which is better for a non expert. There is simply no question the shotgun is superior to any rifle at close ranges in stress situations. To claim otherwise is beyond absurd.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

at 10 or 15 feet you must aim the rifle to hit a person and if you have no experience bringing it onto target at those ranges under stress you are very likely to miss (as anyone with a decent amount of experience with rifles would know).

As anyone who has ever fucking picked up a fucking rifle fucking knows, you don't have to fucking sight-in a fucking man-sized fucking target at 15 fucking feet. Bringing a fucking rifle to bear in that fucking circumstance amounts to fucking pointing the fucking thing in the right fucking direction.

(In memory of the Haytch house girls)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TricklessMagic
And yes shot-for-shot shotguns are superior within twenty yards

quote:

 but if the shooter fears firing the weapon to begin with and won't practice with it out of discomfort of lack of desire, it can be more a liability than an aid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

Just a note on the various polls that people are citing in support of a variety of things - what do any of these polls tell us about how senators from gun-toting states are going to vote unless the poll was specific to that state?? And North Dakota and Alaska get the same number of senators as New York - despite the obvious difference in population. Oddly, on this matter, the senate is actually operating exactly as it was meant to - preventing small population states from having policies forced on them by more populous ones.

Can someone point me to polls in the states where Democratic senators voted against the gun bill? (These would be the following: Arkansas, Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, and Nevada). In other words, what percentage of gun owners in those states think guns should be regulated. I suspect......not very many.....

National polls are not actually helpful when trying to decipher the senate vote.

PPP has that
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2013/04/more-backlash-against-senators-on-gun-vote.html

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Who said sight in? I sure as hell didn't. I said aim the rifle which is not the same thing. Try it sometime. Just grab up a rifle in bed and swing it around and try and hit a man size target somewhere vital without taking a few seconds to bring it on target (ie.e snap shooting). Now try the same thing with a 12 gauge. You will hit far more often with the shotgun.

You said it. You said "aim". You aim a rifle using the sights. Point-shooting ("snap shooting") is something different; learning how to point the weapon at the spot where you're looking without aiming. Also, anyone who would miss a man-sized target with a rifle at that range would miss with a shotgun too, and not be able to get off follow-up shots as quickly as with (say) an AR. Additionally, the AR is both lighter and shorter, much shorter if it has a collapsible stock, and thus faster and easier to weild. Though personally, except for something like a Tromix-modded Saiga, I'd favor a .45 on all counts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

FR~

Despite having a home defense shotty, I think it is useless. You cannot get it quickly. Now this maybe relative to circumstance, but follow me here. I have a family, and the guns need to be locked up. A long gun, really any long gun ends up being inaccessible in a hurry when locked up. If someone comes into my house, I don't want to be dicking with a lock and tearing through a closet. A pistol is the way to go in my opinion. Safely ensconced in my speed safe, I have two guns, a surefire and an extra mag. Both have tritium night sights, one is a revolver (old reliable) and the other a 1911 with laser grip too. If it sounds like one asshole I grab the revolver, if multiple I go with the semi auto and dump the mag in my pocket.

I also prefer the pistol while maneuvering around the house. But penetration really scares me the most. With family in the house, a shotty can really be a liability in my mind. With multiple projectiles flying in random directions, I don't want to injure someone I don't intend to. The pistol I don't worry much, as I load those special Air Marshal rounds for my home defense pieces. They disintegrate in walls and become non-lethal in a hurry.

From a home defense class I took, the instructor liked the intimidation factor of a shotty when you cock it, but after that it changed. If you were proficient and big guy, sure use the shotgun. Otherwise, the fear of just pulling the trigger for someone could force a miss, and rapidly scanning rooms and moving through passageways could be slowed using a large gun.

Two tips he gave, though, were for non-lethal de-escalation of the event. One was the flashlight. Blinding the perp with a really bright flashlight confuses the intruder and prevents them from engaging you effectively. The other was the laser sight. First it ensures you won't miss. In close range it give you the confidence to know what you are hitting even if you are not looking through the sights. Two, it lets the intruder know you aren't going to miss. Once you paint them with the beam, there is no second guessing the result of that first shot. And, if it is a grip sight you don't have to activate the laser till you are ready. Just so you aren't splashing a little red dot everywhere giving a heads up as to your location.