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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 9:24:51 AM   
FunCouple5280


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Idk, sheet rock doesn't stop shit (try pushing a pencil through it, pretty easy) and I wouldn't use bird shot. I would use buck shot to have a solid chance of putting down my target. If you want best weapon for a Noob, I have to go with double action revolver hands down. Anyone can reliably shoot it without issue. There is no safety to miss. Loading it is not a mistery. It cannot jamb. A shot gun is heavy and a little complicated for the inexperienced. For a pump, you have heavy springs for loading, a safety, and you have to understand the slide release to pump it. As far as an overunder or a side by side are concerned, you have to know how to break it and handle the heaft while doing it. Add a laser sight to the revolver and they can't miss.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 11:11:08 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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So lying, dishonesty and deception are okay when giving misinformation to the public?

People need to stop with their justifications and stand on their principles. It is wrong when anyone does it.


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

The gun grabbers in the congress, the main stream media plus even Sarah Brady herself have misrepresented and lied so many times on this issue to push their agenda that if in fact the NRA, who are constantly on the defense trying to combat these lies, misrepresented a thing or 2 I would say that's just one back at em and they have a crap load more to go to even the score.



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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 11:43:40 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Idk, sheet rock doesn't stop shit (try pushing a pencil through it, pretty easy) and I wouldn't use bird shot. I would use buck shot to have a solid chance of putting down my target. If you want best weapon for a Noob, I have to go with double action revolver hands down. Anyone can reliably shoot it without issue. There is no safety to miss. Loading it is not a mistery. It cannot jamb. A shot gun is heavy and a little complicated for the inexperienced. For a pump, you have heavy springs for loading, a safety, and you have to understand the slide release to pump it. As far as an overunder or a side by side are concerned, you have to know how to break it and handle the heaft while doing it. Add a laser sight to the revolver and they can't miss.

Revolvers aren't so great due to availability not technology. .38 is a pretty pathetic cartridge and I would not rely on it to stop anyone. the larger calibers tend to be very large guns with serious recoil and really do need some serious range time to get used to.

Shotguns do need to at least be handled before firing and a pump should be loaded and fired at least a couple of times but IMO it is ideal for someone who doesn't spend time on the range on a regular basis.

Indoors for close range both buck and bird shot would hit as essentially one mass so the difference is mostly about stray shot overpenetrating.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 11:59:58 AM   
FunCouple5280


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The reality is any weapon should be handled and shot regularly. Anyone who owns a gun and doesn't try and shoot it at least every other year is a menace in my opinion. You should be proficient, be comfortable with the weapon and service it regularly. I have a cleaning party once a year and strip, clean and lube all my weapons whether or not they were fired that year.

If you are experienced and proficient, any weapon is adequate and it is up the shooter and their personal preference. The phrase that comes to mind is this: "The best gun is the gun you are the best with"

Yes it is about stray shot over penetrating, and it is some thing I worry about with at short barrel shot gun and nervous hands.

I have to disagree with your statement on the .38. While I have a .357 which is more kick than the 38, I still fire 38s regularly out of it, and there is plenty of lethal energy behind a 38. I would have no faith in a standard ball round stopping anyone, but modern frangible ammo does a hell of a job gouging a hole in someone. Using modern ammo makes up for the lack of uumph in my opinion. While my 45 shreds a melon with that ammo the the 38 still chunks it pretty damn well. If you want to get into a discussion of body armor that will cut out all shot guns and most hand guns from the argument. And really in the handgun arena I am not likely to pull my FN 5 and 7 out for self defense, I doubt an intruder would be all bundled up like SWAT.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 12:24:24 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I have to disagree with your statement on the .38. While I have a .357 which is more kick than the 38, I still fire 38s regularly out of it, and there is plenty of lethal energy behind a 38. I would have no faith in a standard ball round stopping anyone, but modern frangible ammo does a hell of a job gouging a hole in someone. Using modern ammo makes up for the lack of uumph in my opinion. While my 45 shreds a melon with that ammo the the 38 still chunks it pretty damn well. If you want to get into a discussion of body armor that will cut out all shot guns and most hand guns from the argument. And really in the handgun arena I am not likely to pull my FN 5 and 7 out for self defense, I doubt an intruder would be all bundled up like SWAT.

I was partially basing my opinion of the .38 from my brother's comments about it when it was the service wapon he carried as a cop. Pretty sure they were using straight ball ammo.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 12:31:58 PM   
FunCouple5280


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Understandable. I know many a cop that bitched about those revolvers. They rendered many cops impotent against crooks. Yet are cops allowed to use the man-killer ammo? If not, that is why I suspect many using the 40S&W and the 45ACP

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 12:48:50 PM   
DomKen


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As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 5/2/2013 12:49:23 PM >

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 1:20:30 PM   
FunCouple5280


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That would explain a lot.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 2:41:50 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.


Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 2:57:53 PM   
FunCouple5280


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That would make more sense...

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 3:43:26 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I have to disagree with your statement on the .38. While I have a .357 which is more kick than the 38, I still fire 38s regularly out of it, and there is plenty of lethal energy behind a 38. I would have no faith in a standard ball round stopping anyone, but modern frangible ammo does a hell of a job gouging a hole in someone. Using modern ammo makes up for the lack of uumph in my opinion. While my 45 shreds a melon with that ammo the the 38 still chunks it pretty damn well. If you want to get into a discussion of body armor that will cut out all shot guns and most hand guns from the argument. And really in the handgun arena I am not likely to pull my FN 5 and 7 out for self defense, I doubt an intruder would be all bundled up like SWAT.

I was partially basing my opinion of the .38 from my brother's comments about it when it was the service wapon he carried as a cop. Pretty sure they were using straight ball ammo.

Was he ever shot with a .38, or is this just cop hearsay?

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:00:58 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
I have to disagree with your statement on the .38. While I have a .357 which is more kick than the 38, I still fire 38s regularly out of it, and there is plenty of lethal energy behind a 38. I would have no faith in a standard ball round stopping anyone, but modern frangible ammo does a hell of a job gouging a hole in someone. Using modern ammo makes up for the lack of uumph in my opinion. While my 45 shreds a melon with that ammo the the 38 still chunks it pretty damn well. If you want to get into a discussion of body armor that will cut out all shot guns and most hand guns from the argument. And really in the handgun arena I am not likely to pull my FN 5 and 7 out for self defense, I doubt an intruder would be all bundled up like SWAT.

I was partially basing my opinion of the .38 from my brother's comments about it when it was the service wapon he carried as a cop. Pretty sure they were using straight ball ammo.

Was he ever shot with a .38, or is this just cop hearsay?

He was the one carrying the .38. Not so long ago .38 revolvers were quite common police sidearms. As a matter of fact there was an entire line of .38's with names borrowed from police titles made by Colt IIRC.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:34:45 PM   
Moonhead


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Right.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:35:01 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.


Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds.


Funny, buried within an arricle criticizing Democrats for their positions regarding ammo...

The second myth promoted by the four Democrats relates to the alleged use of hollow point ammunition by the U.S. military. While some military police use the ammunition like other law enforcement agencies, U.S. combat forces do not use hollow point ammunition because of the 1899 Hague Declaration.

http://mediatrackers.org/2013/02/19/ammo-ban-advocates-retreat-experts-say-hollow-point-ammo-safer/

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:47:41 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.


Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds.


Funny, buried within an arricle criticizing Democrats for their positions regarding ammo...

The second myth promoted by the four Democrats relates to the alleged use of hollow point ammunition by the U.S. military. While some military police use the ammunition like other law enforcement agencies, U.S. combat forces do not use hollow point ammunition because of the 1899 Hague Declaration.

http://mediatrackers.org/2013/02/19/ammo-ban-advocates-retreat-experts-say-hollow-point-ammo-safer/

The military is definitely barred from using anything but standard SMJ ammunition. but the article does imply that cops are allowed to use hollow points.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:54:46 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.


Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds.


Funny, buried within an arricle criticizing Democrats for their positions regarding ammo...

The second myth promoted by the four Democrats relates to the alleged use of hollow point ammunition by the U.S. military. While some military police use the ammunition like other law enforcement agencies, U.S. combat forces do not use hollow point ammunition because of the 1899 Hague Declaration.

http://mediatrackers.org/2013/02/19/ammo-ban-advocates-retreat-experts-say-hollow-point-ammo-safer/



I believe there's is a HUGE difference in the technology behind the "Dum Dum" rounds from 1899 and the hollow point ammunition of today.

If Hollow points are banned, why did the DHS just order 750 Million rounds of hollow point?

Sorry, but no one in the US, including federal law enforcement uses full metal jacket rounds, none of us want to hit the child standing 20 feet behind the target.


< Message edited by subrob1967 -- 5/2/2013 4:56:26 PM >


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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 4:57:47 PM   
mnottertail


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military is full metal jacket, them boys is gonna vote some day, politicians want some chance of them having parts left over.  

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 5:06:38 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As far as I know most departments forbid the use of anything but ball. It might even be a law.


Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds.


Funny, buried within an arricle criticizing Democrats for their positions regarding ammo...

The second myth promoted by the four Democrats relates to the alleged use of hollow point ammunition by the U.S. military. While some military police use the ammunition like other law enforcement agencies, U.S. combat forces do not use hollow point ammunition because of the 1899 Hague Declaration.

http://mediatrackers.org/2013/02/19/ammo-ban-advocates-retreat-experts-say-hollow-point-ammo-safer/



I believe there's is a HUGE difference in the technology behind the "Dum Dum" rounds from 1899 and the hollow point ammunition of today.

If Hollow points are banned, why did the DHS just order 750 Million rounds of hollow point?

Sorry, but no one in the US, including federal law enforcement uses full metal jacket rounds, none of us want to hit the child standing 20 feet behind the target.




The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibits the use in international warfare of bullets which easily expand or flatten in the body, giving as example a bullet with a jacket with incisions or one that does not fully cover the core.[14] This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the Declaration of St Petersburg in 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams.

Until relatively recently, the prohibition on the use of expanding bullets was only applicable to international armed conflicts. The International Committee of the Red Cross's customary international law study contends that customary law now prohibits their use in armed conflicts not of an international character.[15] The adoption of an amendment to Article 8 at the Review Conference of the Rome Statute in Kampala makes the use of expanding bullets in non-international armed conflict a war crime.[16]

Because the Hague convention applies only to the use of expanding bullets in war, the use of expanding rounds remains legal, or even required, in some circumstances. Examples of this are use of appropriately expanding bullets in hunting, where it is desirable to stop the animal quickly either to prevent loss of a game animal, or ensure a humane death of vermin, and in law enforcement or self-defence, where quickly neutralizing an aggressor may be needed to prevent further loss of life, or where the bullet must remain inside the target to prevent collateral damage e.g. on an aircraft.[17][18]


Answer your DHS question... Do they only arm the military or do they also arm other departments?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 5:52:36 PM   
subrob1967


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DHS doesn't arm the military, DOD does...Nice try though.

Like I said, I don't know of ANY police departments that uses full metal, or ball ammunition.

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RE: NRA Misrepresents Police Survey, Legislation - 5/2/2013 6:22:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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Duh... that was my point all along. Are you sure you understand what I posted?

quote:

Funny, I don't know of ANY departments that use ball ammo because ball has a tendency to go through the target. Every agency in Indiana uses hollow point self defense rounds


I merely posted what info I could find.

You jumped to assumptions yet again.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 80
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