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Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 11:45:33 AM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		For years I've always wondered why did Japan decide to team up with Hitler during WWII. After all, Hitler only belived in having his Blonde Hair Blue Eyed Arion Race as being superior. He already screwed over Italy and Russia. So what was Japan really thinking? It's not like they really needed Germany for aide in controlling China and the Pacific Islands for resorces. If both Germany and Japan had there way with WWII, were they ready to have war with each other?

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 1:13:23 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		If you are referring to Pearl Harbor, Japan wanted the US to drop their pacifist stance and be drawn into a limited war, presumably expecting America to lose to Germany. This would have allowed Japan to achieve their own imperialist goals (read about the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere), and they probably thought that Germany would be in no shape to take them on after fighting the Allies. (Don't forget that Japan had recently defeated the Russian Navy).

Had America stayed out of (and unscathed by) WWII, the anticipated 'future war' to eliminate all Western power would have been much harder to win for the Japanese.

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/AMH-23.htm



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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 2:25:43 PM   
Noah


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Status: offline 		Nice hypothesis.

Thanks, Alumbrado.


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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 3:06:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		It was a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend, that is why Germany-Italy and later Japan were called the Axis powers. They had no common ideology or goal apart from the defeat of the powers that stood in the way of their ambitions.

Japan's ambition's started with the humiliation of the 'unequal treaties' forced upon them by the USA and later other western powers around 1870, when Japan realised if they weren't to become a colony of the western powers they would have to modernise, militarise and act like the west and build an empire. China being the first nation to succumb to the unequal treaties forced upon them by Britain. The mistake Japan made was to treat the people of its conquests worse than the west had treated them, otherwise they would have got the support of much of the people of South East Asia who would have probably seen them as liberators.  The Pacific war could have been a different story if the Japanese weren't blinded by their sense of superiority. Hitler made the same mistake in the Ukeraine by seeing them as lesser people instead of potential alies against Russia.

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 3:24:26 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		Your theories are based upon Japan expecting the USA to be more deeply involved with Germany than Japan.
Remember the USA did not declar war on Germany, Hitler in one of his less genius moments (of which there were fortunately many) declared war on the USA. Japan expected a very limited conflict with the USA which it viewed as unlikely to become embroiled in a really long drawn out war and therefore effectively secure the Japanese Theatre of control. At the time of the attack countries providing support for China (which was at war with Japan) were in a very weakened state and so the only significant military threat was Singapore (a paper tiger) and the US navy. If both could be elimnated then Japan would have free rain to complete the destruction of China and take natural resources in the Indonesia to Australia areas. Net effect a very rich, stable, populated empire with no local threats. Suppose - Germany had not declaired war on the USA, the US Carriers had also been sunk, and a limited Japanese follow up after the Philipines & Churchill had been less persuasive. A short sharp conflict between US and Japan followed by a quick peace.........world history would look very different........a gamble Japan made based on the observation that the population of the USA did not want to be involved in foriegn war. 

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 4:03:05 PM   
Wulfchyld


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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 5:32:47 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

Your theories are based upon Japan expecting the USA to be more deeply involved with Germany than Japan.


Not quite...possibly more involved in the land war in Europe, since the plan was to destroy the US Pacific fleet, leaving Japan's navy a formidable safeguard for their corner of the world..


quote:

 
Remember the USA did not declar war on Germany, Hitler in one of his less genius moments (of which there were fortunately many) declared war on the USA. Japan expected a very limited conflict with the USA which it viewed as unlikely to become embroiled in a really long drawn out war and therefore effectively secure the Japanese Theatre of control. At the time of the attack countries providing support for China (which was at war with Japan) were in a very weakened state and so the only significant military threat was Singapore (a paper tiger) and the US navy. If both could be elimnated then Japan would have free rain to complete the destruction of China and take natural resources in the Indonesia to Australia areas. Net effect a very rich, stable, populated empire with no local threats. Suppose - Germany had not declaired war on the USA, the US Carriers had also been sunk, and a limited Japanese follow up after the Philipines & Churchill had been less persuasive. A short sharp conflict between US and Japan followed by a quick peace.........world history would look very different........a gamble Japan made based on the observation that the population of the USA did not want to be involved in foriegn war. 


And in some part, on the previous victory in Japan's war against Russia.

I think our speculative efforts are more similar than not.


BTW, how many folks here know that Japan has re-initiated the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere, and has altered the post WWII treaty status of their 'self defense' forces and is developing a modern military force specifically geared toward combat in foreign theaters?

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/24/2006 5:41:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		Japan sees the rise of China as a potential threat which is why it is changing the status of its self defence force but since its self defence force is much larger than the militaries of most European countries the term 'self defence force' is rather obsolete anyway.

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/27/2006 8:49:04 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		My Father has a very old set of books on this specific subject.

Japan may have still been called Nippon in 1870, not sure when it changed right now, but prior to the Pearl Harbor attack the US had them under all kinds of sanctions and bullshit. Not sure why, but it may well have been to goad them into the attack.

FDR had a real itch to get into WW2, and Pearl Harbor had RADAR. It did not work on the day in question, just like NORAD didn't work on 9/11. In each case a war happened, with the unattacked US attacking a foreign country. We attacked Germany, and some of their territories, but they had never attacked us at the time. At least not in the contemporary sense.

General Yamamoto I believe told the Emperer not to attack the US, but followed orders. Later he told the Emporer "We have awoken a sleeping giant". Indeed they did want more territory, the plan included taking a bunch of islands and suing for peace, hoping to keep some of their booty. General Yamamoto had gone to school in the US, and warned his Emperer, just as some people warn Bush today.

The US and Britan redrew the lines on the map of Europe after WW2 to inhibit them from becoming stable nations. As bad as this was, the aftermath of this next war will not be anywhere near as rosy. Most of the middle east is going to be uninhabitable. What's more, if the neo-cons go into Iran, Russia and China both will no longer sit on their thumbs. You go ahead and pound your chest and do the mantra "Number One Number One", while the fact of the matter is that it is doubtful that we can even handle Iran.

Somewhere along the line Israel is going to have to fight some of her own battles, and war between Iran and Israel is almost a surety. Russia is sure to go with Iran, and while their military capability does not match ours in numbers, their technology is actually superior. They learned during the cold war not to try to outspend the US, who holds a carte blanche with the international banks. Israel controls most of the international banks, directly or indirectly, so the US will be on their side, against Russia, the whole of Islam, and possibly even China.

Russia had to depend on her own productivity, and let the conventional military falter, they put their money into improving technology, and now outfly us and make even better missiles than we do. N Korea is supposedly making even better missiles than Russia, and has nukes, and BTW, is not a friend of the US either.

This is an ugly scenario. If it were a game of Risk I would attempt to make some allies, but it is way too late for that.

I will stand tall and kill and die if necessary for my country, but unfortunately when that day comes, it will not be the forces of Germany, Japan, Russia, Iran, China whatever, it'll be right here at home. We are the ones who need a regime change. They have both stupidity and hubris, and they care nothing for the lives of the Citizens, they prove it every day. This is not a good situation.

There is alot of speculation as well, that there would be goose-steppers on our streets had we not gotten into WW2, this is simply a lie. Remember that the victors wrote history now. Even if you believe most of it, you surely must realize that it has a slant on it.

England was the impetus for the US to get into the war, and they actually seem that way again, being "our" staunchest ally in the Iraq folley. Remember the old Sohio gas stations that are now all BP ? BP stands for British Petroleum.

Remember the mistakes in the US Constitution that made it possible to get into the mess we're in ? Think of this, the Founding Fathers of the US were loyal Englishmen.

It all fits. Slavery, the civil war, all part of a plan.

Now LaM, don't get on my case for this, but I am going to say it, and it is germaine to the thread : Hitler was a waaaaaay better leader than GWB could ever hope to be. And history is going to repeat itself, but the outcome will not be so good this time.

T


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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/27/2006 9:01:20 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		prior to the Pearl Harbor attack the US had them under all kinds of sanctions and bullshit. Not sure why, but it may well have been to goad them into the attack.

We had policy sanctions on them because we wanted to continue a trade of goods and keep occupations within the far east. India, China, Korea, and the Philipines along with the shiping routes to Austrailia became a big part of the U.S. economy. Occupations, military bases, and financial opportunity where picking up. With or without a European War, I'm sure that Japan would have still caused a great enough conflict that would would have lead in battles if not a war.   


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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/27/2006 9:23:12 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		OK, but why was what Japan doing any of our fucking business ?

T

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/27/2006 9:30:46 PM   
FangsNfeet


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Status: offline 		Being desperate for resources, Japan not only wanted but needed controll of the area. There controll along with there acceptance of communism would have put a severe kink in the way we wanted things to flow. They gave China a hard time. Also Japan was to proud of a nation to just let the US have there way in the trading routes and occupations. Most would rather be dead than keep there hands out for scraps.   

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 1:13:09 AM   
SteadyOnChaps


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

For years I've always wondered why did Japan decide to team up with Hitler during WWII. After all, Hitler only belived in having his Blonde Hair Blue Eyed Arion Race as being superior. He already screwed over Italy and Russia. So what was Japan really thinking? It's not like they really needed Germany for aide in controlling China and the Pacific Islands for resorces. If both Germany and Japan had there way with WWII, were they ready to have war with each other?


I have read around this subject a fair bit.  The Japanese had started their war before the one in Europe kicked off, and they already controlled much of China, Korea and South-East Asia.  The next big hurdle was Pearl Harbour.  The Japanese figured that the US would get involved in the war at some point, due to the situation in Europe.  And since the British were involved in both theatres, helping in the Far East would also aid the war effort in Europe.

It was, therefore, just a matter of time before the Japanese came up against the USA.

With this in mind, it was decided to try and knock the USA out of the war before they joined - by destroying their fleet (but especially the carriers) in a surprise attack, hoping that the US would then sign a treaty not to get involved further, and go off to lick their wounds.

Unfortunately for the Japanese, they failed to take into account that attacking the USA has rarely resulted in anything other than a massive retaliation; and with the huge resources available to the USA, once they get on a war footing, you're not going to out-produce them unless you are China or the old USSR.  You're going to lose, basically.  The Japanese High Command didn't understand the American mindset, or they would have known that their strategy was basically suicidal.

Hope this is of interest.

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 1:19:00 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Yamamoto knew that and told them. They didn't listen. Sound familiar ?

T

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 1:25:30 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK, but why was what Japan doing any of our fucking business ?

T


Japan saw that the only way to protect itself was to become an imperial power like western powers and when I say imperial powers like western powers, I also mean the USA which is an emprire in everyone's book but the USA's.

Japan was none of the USA'a business, it was the USA expanding its imperial influence that made Japan realise that to protect itself it needed its own empire. It just forgot when to stop because it didn't meet any serious opposition for a long time.

Britain was not the impetus to get the US into the Iraq war Termyn8tor. Bush pressured Blair into Britain being the fig leaf to cover US aggression. Blair unlike Chirac and Schroeder had political reasons for not saying no to Bush.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/28/2006 1:26:33 AM >

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 2:02:12 AM   
vield


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Status: offline 		The trail leading to Pearl Harbor began with our disapproval of Japanese actions in their war with China, our economic and military support of Japan's enemy China, and our military and economic support of Germany's enemy, England. Both of these supporting roles brought the Japanese and Germans together, until they signed a defense agreement in early 1941. When Japan made a treaty with Vichy France (a German puppet state) and occupied military bases in French Indochina (Vietnam), the US embargoed all oil and strategic exports to Japan (who bought most of this from us. We demanded they give up this territory and also most of their gains from ten years of severe war with China, to get our trade back. Japan had about 6 months worth of reserves of oil and metals etc. on hand and the only other place they could get these was the Dutch East Indies (Indonesia), which they certainly wanted anyway. Any Japanese premier who even seemed to support surrendering to the US demands would have been immediately assasinated by his own artmy officers. Admiral Yamamoto told the Japanses military he could run wild for 6 to 12 months if war came, but that then US industrial strength would be too great if peace had not been won. This fact of the Pearl Harbor attack occurring before we were notified of Japanese intentions was partly a mistake of their own embassy staff. It was a bad mistake as it galvanized this country into support for the war. vield

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 3:35:00 AM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		vield;

Not bad, you have a different slant than most, actually not as evidenced by your pic :-)

You don't seem to have rebutted , but perhaps you didn't see the other thread. Viet Man was about phosphorous. Serbia was about cadmium. WW2 was a big mess, and more recently, Iraq is about oil as well as the security of Israel.

What was Korea all about ? It certainly wasn't a field exercise. Thusfar a reason can be found for almost every war that has been conducted, but the real reason for Korea is still a mystery. Korea must have some natural resource or something, or was it an affiliation thing, like China wanted it so we helped ? I have no information on exactly why Korea "happened".

The cadmium miners' umion tried to take over the country, when Milesovic dealt with it, in the appropriate manner I might add, he was then a war criminal.

President Diem, not Lord Diem, Emperer Diem, Dictator Diem, President Diem did not sign on to certain agreements, the CIA assassinated him.

I've talked to Viet Nam vets, and a couple told me they worked in mines, mines that were very aggressively mined, ALOT of people there. Only a small portion of the phosphorous was used to make napalm like they said, most of it got shipped out. You see, without phosphorous there wouldn't have been television. Imagine the consequences.

OK when you're done laughing.

Cadmium is VERY VERY important to the military, as is phosphorous. Oil is also important, and that is why Bush works for the oil companies. Did Korea posess a natural resource or a strategic location ? It was one or the other, or some backstreet deal. Otherwise they wouldn't waste our time. (that much)

Of course if it were their sons going to battle, they might just be happy with the billions they already have.

Here's an idea, no politician or anyone in government can order an attack anywhere in the world unless his own son is in the military, and started out as a private. Westpoint comes later, you put your OWN kid's ass on the line, then we can talk.

And don't give me this bullshit about a pushbutton hero up in a plane, killing people on the ground from the air. Better you get the gold in Women's gymnastics. I mean a grunt, a soldier. You sit up in that plane with very little relative risk, but are a hero for pushing a button and bombing the "cowards", even the ones who have decided to give their lives, just to take out a few of you MFs. You bomb Women and children and hospitals, schools and private homes, power plants, water treatment plants. Yes, you are doing God's will, but that is CERTAINLY not MY God.

Get into your bulletproof limo muthafuker, and enjoy your security. Know what ? I am going to enjoy sitting out on my porch, no bodyguards, no nothing, not even a gun, just me and the birds, and of course the sky.

BTW, vield, this is in no way directed at you, I got a-going here. You know who I am talking about and I hope it's clear it is not to you, nor anyone here. The rant part that is. You know what I mean.

People are led to believe they are serving their country when nothing could be farther from the truth.

Chinese people were taught to shut the fuck up, Moslems are 95% against us, Most of the Russian people support Putin and he is against us, seventy fucking percent of the European population is against us no matter what their government says.

One other thing, if America "has the ability to reshape the world in it's own image", why is Castro still there ? Why indeed is Hugo Chavez Frias still there ? Remeber him, his People, a popular movement threw our CIA out of there on their ear. They call him a Dictator. He musta dictated some damngood things. The People of Venezuela have spoken.

I have dealt with mobsters, they are good folk, if you treat then right they will treat you right, but there were factions, nasty factions. Well, the nastiest of them did not get busted, they got elected.

T

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 6:57:12 AM   
meatcleaver


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Status: offline 		American foreign policy against Cuba has been misconceived from the beginning. The policy makers in Washington should have asked themselves why was there a successful revolution. The answer is simple, you get a revolution when people have had enough and don't have anything left to lose. ditto Iran. Instead of coming to terms with the new government in Cuba, Washington decided to side with Cuban money and tried to overthrow the new regime and when that failed became vindictive and blockaded it. Cuba has cost the USA so much in PR around the world. The US's policy just makes the US look like a mean spirited, petty minded bully. Hell, Castro et al weren't even Marxists until US action made them seek help from the USSR. Having been to Cuba, it appears most Cubans blame the US for their poverty rather than the regime. Though it is fair to say that Cubans are inundated with anti-American propaganda but Americans are inundated with anti-Castro propaganda too. Castro did improve health and education for ordinary Cubans and its only vindictive action by the US as to why Cuba is in poverty now.

How the USA looks from within its borders and how it looks from outside its borders are two very different animals. When I've been to the US I've rarely seen information in the media as to the pressure the US applies to other governments on behalf of its own companies at the expense of local governments. One rarely sees US interference in other countries reported. Venuezala for instance, they have voted in a President who wants to redistribute money from the rich to the poor. Why is that such a concern to the US? Venuezala has oil, it is no one elses oil but theirs and they can do what they like with it. However Bush disagrees. Well, the world is on the side of the little fella who wants to aleviate poverty in his own country.

I don't think 70% of Europeans are anti-American but they do have criticisms and the younger generations, unlike the older generation who remember the war find the need to feel thankful to the US for help in WWII a little wearisome. For them WWII is history, not to be forgotten but still history, like WWI and the Franco-Prussian War. We also never had the same paranoia about the USSR as appears to have been in the US so while we are glad to have seen it go, it wasn't seen here as a big a victory as in the US because in its wake came other concerns just as great. Europeans also knew that the Russians couldn't rely on its allies to fight along side them. The Poles and Hungarians et all were always more likely in the advent of a war to turn round and fight the Russians. The Russians were always far more fearful of the West than vice versa and this was the perception in much of Europe.

But wars are fought because it suits big money and if ordinary soldiers said no, I'm only a soldier to defend my soil, the world would be a better place. My great uncle who fought in WWI said, the mistake the ordinary soldiers made was to kill each other instead of turning round and shooting those who sent them to war.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/28/2006 7:06:52 AM >

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 7:12:32 AM   
JohnWarren


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Status: offline 		There are so much crap here that I'm just going to cherry pick some of the ripest.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
Japan may have still been called Nippon in 1870, not sure when it changed right now,

Nippon is the Japanese name for their nation (also spelled Nihon) in our alphabet.  Nothing changed except the white man's idea of "well I'll call it"
quote:



but prior to the Pearl Harbor attack the US had them under all kinds of sanctions and bullshit. Not sure why, but it may well have been to goad them into the attack.


Japan was raping and murdering it's way across China at the time.  The sanctions just like the ones aimed at Iraq and South Africa were intended to get the to stop that activity.

quote:


FDR had a real itch to get into WW2, and Pearl Harbor had RADAR. It did not work on the day in question, just like NORAD didn't work on 9/11. In each case a war happened, with the unattacked US attacking a foreign country. We attacked Germany, and some of their territories, but they had never attacked us at the time. At least not in the contemporary sense.

The radar at Pearl worked fine.  The intelligence received from it was misinterpreted.  We only attacked Germany after Hitler declared war on us (probably a bigger mistake than June 22, 1941).

quote:



General Yamamoto I believe told the Emperer not to attack the US, but followed orders. Later he told the Emporer "We have awoken a sleeping giant". Indeed they did want more territory, the plan included taking a bunch of islands and suing for peace, hoping to keep some of their booty. General Yamamoto had gone to school in the US, and warned his Emperer, just as some people warn Bush today.

Yamamoto was an admiral
quote:



The US and Britan redrew the lines on the map of Europe after WW2 to inhibit them from becoming stable nations.

Most of the redrawing of Europe followed WWI.  After WWII, except for a bit of nippling on Germany not much was done.  The big changes were west of the "iron curtain" were Stalin tried to make some countries disappear.  That wasn't the US and Britain.
quote:


and while their military capability does not match ours in numbers, their technology is actually superior.

I'll need a cite on that one.  Every source I can get from The Economist to the Jane's Publications puts almost every class of Soviet Weapon far below that of US issued ones.
quote:



They learned during the cold war not to try to outspend the US, who holds a carte blanche with the international banks. Israel controls most of the international banks, directly or indirectly, so the US will be on their side, against Russia, the whole of Islam, and possibly even China.

Let's all join hands for a singing of "The Protocols of the Elders Of Zion" led by the KKK gospel chorus.

quote:



Russia had to depend on her own productivity, and let the conventional military falter, they put their money into improving technology, and now outfly us and make even better missiles than we do. N Korea is supposedly making even better missiles than Russia, and has nukes, and BTW, is not a friend of the US either.

North Korea has better missiles than Russa?  Who has better equipment than US?  Do I really even have to stop laughing and reach for a copy of Jane's Pocket Book of Missiles?  Nah, I'll work from memory.  Korea's Taepodong-2 has a range of less than 5000 and while the CEP is unknown it is likely to be much larger than that of a Minuteman II which was intended as a counterforce weapon and has a range of about 7,000 miles.
quote:


There is alot of speculation as well, that there would be goose-steppers on our streets had we not gotten into WW2, this is simply a lie. Remember that the victors wrote history now. Even if you believe most of it, you surely must realize that it has a slant on it.

Read some of Hitler's writings, read the diaries of Speer.  These words were written about what they planned to do after WWII was won, and the "mongrel nation of the US" wasn't in for a fun time.  That's not history after the fact.  Those are the words of people who were planning their own history.
quote:


Remember the mistakes in the US Constitution that made it possible to get into the mess we're in ? Think of this, the Founding Fathers of the US were loyal Englishmen.


They sure hid it from King George.

< Message edited by JohnWarren -- 6/28/2006 7:16:54 AM >

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RE: Hitler, Japan, and WWII - 6/28/2006 7:12:42 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
My great uncle who fought in WWI said the mistake the ordinary soldiers made, was to kill each other instead of turning round and shooting those who sent them to war.

Quite.

< Message edited by Rule -- 6/28/2006 7:13:31 AM >

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