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I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the United S... - 5/2/2013 7:15:22 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		Okay now, seriously...NASA is asking for a doubling of their budget (I don't have any links) to go to Mars. China is planning a mission to Mars (little crafts like we've done to date), Russia is planning missions (same), AFRICA is planning on sending something (probably a Hallmark card) but....going to the moon, that was doable in our own budget here in the USA....we landed, hoisted a flag, played some golf, jumped up and down a few times...had a great time, came home several times but...that was like (comparatively) doing an around the world trip with 7 relatives in tow, leaving 27 homes taken care of with landscaping crews to make sure the lawn was mowed timely to.....building a damned country, with cities the size of Los Angeles or Hong Kong, with every road paved and a cop on every corner.

It's too much for one country to do.....well/properly.

EVERYONE around the world is planning on doing a Mars mission, whether putting a 128k Baud modem on the surface or....in a few cases, actually putting (private...no return!!!) humans on the surface with transparent, plastic hutches that they can't possibly survive in.

It's a death trap going in.

Instead of spending 1% of OUR national budget for some kind of manned mission, where they go, circle the planet and don't actually land (or in the case of the private companies, land but not be able to in fact return)...like the World Bank which is an international organization that every (major) country plunks money in to, or the International Monetary Fund (same kind of gig....no borders...the Prez has no real influence)....why doesn't someone come up with a gig where EVERY country puts up 1/2 of 1% of their GDP (such as we're spending here now...big countries....small ones), buy a damned island somewhere in the Pacific and...just like that movie with Jodie Foster...set up a World agency....where instead of the USA spending 500 billion, the WORLD spends 9 trillion....and we, as a globe....as friends....go to Mars?

I wanna see this happen.

I think it'll stop (or at least ameliorate) wars.

Who can kill each other if we're all searching the Universe together....for the same cause, with enough of every one of us...traveling together for common cause?

Here's the facebook link...I'm SERIOUS about this.....

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100005837973108&ref=tn_tnmn

I don't think it's crazy at all...countries across the globe are already aiming for this mission but....they're pissing in the wind...doing it themselves.

The United States can't afford a "real" mission....but together....globally....we could plant a colony.

It's time to get serious, create a global franchise, private and government.....it's time we, as a civilization.....go to Mars.

I'd REALLY appreciate your input....even tin foil hat shit....let's start somewhere.

Let's leave this world, finally, take our neighbors (and friends) with us, and try to make our (global) mark.

JJ

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 5/2/2013 7:16:51 PM >
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/2/2013 7:24:50 PM   
theshytype


Posts: 1600
Status: offline 		I agree. Unfortunately, every country wants to be able to claim they were first, the winners, the best.
I wish we could all, as a planet, work together collectively and send all of our undesirables to mars. After all, there's a good handful of people HERE I can't stand, so I definitely wouldn't want to colonize another planet WITH them. I've grown quite fond of this planet, so I'm going to be the bigger person, step aside, and let them go.

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/2/2013 7:28:59 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

Excellent idea, Lookie!

It may not be as hopeless as we imagine. I think various nations cooperated well on the International Space Station, though I'm no expert on the topic.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to theshytype)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/2/2013 9:18:31 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		The only real problem (as I see it) is to synchronize all the bureaucracies that would be involved. Essentially, we have three major and two minor space agencies that really matter. NASA, RFSA (Russian Federal Space Ageny), and ESA are the heavy-lift capable, with NASDA (Japan) and ISRO (Indian Space Research Organization) running close behind. Throw in the others (I did not know Algeria and Turkmenistan had space agenices), and you have layers upon gooey layer of red tape.

And that's just for the unclassified materials. Consider the fact that all terrestrial spacecraft were developed from ammunition essentially, and you start getting into the spooky world of "national security". We've actually had the technology to go to Mars since the 1960's (NERVA and ORION-1 programs), but treaty limitations and the mutual fear of nuclear materiel in orbit are too great. Don't get started on RTGs, they aren't quite the same as a full-on reactor/propulsion system. Another problem was the lack of political will, but I'll address that later.

And unless there is a major paradigm shift in attitudes and policies, forget commercial interests from stepping up to the plate. The returns would be too small and take too long. They (their shareholders really) demand fast turnover on their investments, especially with an intangible like a Martian colony. I can just imagine a broker telling a client over the phone, "You want to know where your ten million is? Go outside and look to southwest. See that little red dot? There's where your money is. Bye..." They are perfectly content with lofting comsats and other mundane payloads into LEO.

Another problem is the political cycle. Here is the US, politicians want projects they supported to be concluded quickly, preferably right before election time. They don't give a shit about humanity's future, only the next four years for them. Another problem is caused by them wanting to hang stuff on it that was built in their constituencies. Jobs equal votes, and if the project doesn't mean jobs in their district, it's a non-starter. Multiply that by however many nations get involved and you'll have boosters unable to get off the pad.

As I said before, we've had key components of the puzzle since the '60s, propulsion-wise. The real PITA is the fact that we need dedicated infrastructure on orbit to create the vessels sufficiently large enough to handle the task of going into deep space safely. I dismiss the idea that astronauts would be able to handle it inside an Orion capsule, even with an inflatable habitat, for 2-3 months or more. Something on the order of a Skylab-sized machine or bigger would be vastly preferable. Just building the infrastructure alone could be a decade-long project, unless the repurpose the ISS into a proto-space yard and industrial truss, rather than deorbit it like MIR (as is planned).

The last problem is...us. We are accustomed to instant gratification for the most part. Fast, safe, sure, and repeatable are what we want to hear and see. Every long-distance colonization on Earth has a body count over and above natural attrition. Add in the ability to see and hear things going on there (granted, with a few minutes delay), and people would sour when the first tragedies are reported. Perception is everything, and seeing and hearing astronauts last gasps would doom the mission quickly.

Do I want humanity to go to Mars? Of course I do. I've been a space geek since I was a kid, but along the way I learned a lot about how things that can be done sometimes aren't done because they don't do something else. If Earth were united under a single government, this would be a moot point, because then it could develop a singular focus on the problem. Until and unless, if there is to be a colonization mission, it would most likely be from one of the big three agencies, not a world-wide effort. For your viewing amusement and information, I'll throw in the link to Wikipedia (I used it for some of the agency names above). Cheers! And There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch....

Manned Missions to Mars

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/2/2013 9:22:10 PM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline 		I think putting a man on Mars is a stunt. And putting men there, one way, is just as stupid as anything else I've ever heard. You can't colonize Mars before you terraform it. Because you can't terraform Mars after you colonize it. And of course, that they would survive a year is among the rosiest of assumptions. A better idea would be to send a preparatory robotic mission to Phobos. Specifically, to that spot on Phobos directly facing Mars.

Phobos is tidal locked. The moon does not turn in relation to the planet, just like the Moon. (capitalized, Moon refers to THE Moon.) This means the moons bulk shields the site from almost half the sphere while the planet shields it from almost the other half of the sphere. This means this spot has the lowest cosmic radiation intensity for any spot in the solar system that is outside atmosphere and magnetosphere. Mars has precious little magnetic field, so for 99% of the planet, Phobos is radiographically better. Build a wall around the site, and people could stay there for years without radiation problems. But the escape velocity is bicycle speed. So people couldn't stay there for years without gravity problems. Mining equipment could stay for centuries, though, without radiation problems. The stuff would stay right where it was put, too. That is kinda handy, when you are 30-60,000,000 miles away. You'll know where your gear is. When you want to use the equipment, launch is easy. 25 mph is all it takes.

The kicker is. Phobos is an asteroid. I think of it as 'Asteroid #1'. So asteroid miners can mine it. 25 mph escape velocity is also all it takes to capture almost all of the rubble mining will cause Which is handy, because they pretty much HAVE to set up a base to do it. And that is where the base SHOULD be put. The folks thinking about asteroid mining now want to do it in low Earth orbit, because they get free radiation shielding. Trouble is, their rubble would make manned spaceflight way too dangerous, so I don't know what they think they are gaining. Another thing I don't know is why they think they need astronauts to mine asteroids. Are they visualizing Buzz Aldrin shoveling Moon rocks into a sample bag? That is not mining. At best, it is prospecting. Let them go to it in LEO, though, and the rest of us are FUCKED. Low Earth Orbit will quickly be filled with little rocks buzzing every direction at 17,000mph. Goodbye ISS, GPS and anything else nearby. The complaint that Mars is far is bunk. Robots don't get bored on long flights and the energy to return is the same as from the Moon. In the case of Phobos, that would be from lunar orbit, not from the surface. It's slow, but its cheap and reliable.

But the product need not be sent back to Earth. If you were to set up a facility at L4 and/or L5, you could send stuff there for processing into more useful stuff. Stuff like foamed aluminum girders, for example. Or foamed steel. Or glass. Or hydrogen and oxygen. Or water. Stuff useful for making other stuff. Like a great big wheel shaped space station. Or a big space ship. Or mining equipment. Or a huge floating greenhouse. Or... Or... Or...

When you look at it like that, going to Mars might not sound like so great an idea, after all. At least, not until Mars needs farmers. Phobos should be the target, because that is where you want to set up your terraforming operation, when you get to that stage of the game. And that is where you want the asteroid mining to be centered, so you can develop the mining into terraforming also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point

< Message edited by FrostedFlake -- 5/2/2013 9:43:47 PM >

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/2/2013 9:29:04 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		Correct in all things, FF. We need the hardcore infrastructure in place before we go ourselves (except perhaps as caretakers on limited missions). I have a feeling I'm going to like this thread...

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to FrostedFlake)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 8:46:34 AM   
LizDeluxe


Posts: 687
Joined: 10/2/2011
Status: offline 		I'd rather see that funding go into our cell phone network. Build a cell network that won't drop calls then worry about traveling to Mars.

(in reply to MasterCaneman)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 9:47:28 AM   
FrostedFlake


Posts: 3084
Joined: 3/4/2009
From: Centralia, Washington
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe

I'd rather see that funding go into our cell phone network. Build a cell network that won't drop calls then worry about traveling to Mars.

Oh, PLEASE !!

The notion that we can't walk and chew gum seldom occurs to those of us who can walk and chew gum. The reality of the matter is, stunt, or not, a Mars shot will expand our collective technical acumen AND stimulate the general welfare by providing many brilliant people with opportunity to fully utilize their currently latent talents.

To be more direct, the money in your pocket is not made of anything. It is created by being lent. It is debt. There is no limit to it. It is for that particular reason NOT a case of either/or. Both projects may be pursued without either limiting the other. What IS limiting, is having people do nothing because someone can't imagine walking and chewing gum.

If anyone feels insulted by these comments, they should realize it is because I am speaking of them.

_____________________________

Frosted Flake
simul justus et peccator
Einen Liebhaber, und halten Sie die Schraube

"... evil (and hilarious) !!" Hlen5

(in reply to LizDeluxe)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 1:51:29 PM   
FunCouple5280


Posts: 559
Joined: 10/30/2012
Status: offline 		FR---- The issue isn't all of us playing together----its who gets all the patent and technology rights. No one is willing to share all that.

(in reply to FrostedFlake)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 3:57:01 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

I agree. Unfortunately, every country wants to be able to claim they were first, the winners, the best.
I wish we could all, as a planet, work together collectively and send all of our undesirables to mars. After all, there's a good handful of people HERE I can't stand, so I definitely wouldn't want to colonize another planet WITH them. I've grown quite fond of this planet, so I'm going to be the bigger person, step aside, and let them go.


I concur....so...let's plant a flag.......as a globe.

As one.

One planet.

One people.

Let's leave and, go together. As one.

(in reply to theshytype)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 3:58:17 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

Excellent idea, Lookie!

It may not be as hopeless as we imagine. I think various nations cooperated well on the International Space Station, though I'm no expert on the topic.


FUCK!!!...It may be hopeless...but....I think it's worth a gawdamned try.

(in reply to dcnovice)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 4:12:21 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		I agree, despite my negative posting. The only thing holding us back is ourselves.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 4:35:25 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I concur....so...let's plant a flag.......as a globe.

As one.

One planet.

One people.

Let's leave and, go together. As one.

NO... that kinda thinking will lead to one world government and no dam way I want that (even tho the 1% do).. it will be the whole EU thing & an eventual & unstopable debacle that will follow, but multiple times worse.. Yeah, call me a party pooper.. While its a nice dream to put a man/woman/group on Mars, imo, the money would be much better spent trying to make this world that we live in a better place (without the one world govt tho)..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 4:53:00 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

I concur....so...let's plant a flag.......as a globe.


Why would we plant a symbol of tyrrany and oppression together?

quote:

Let's leave and, go together. As one.


How about we send those of us that don't have a place on this globe, and the rest can stay behind?

The diversity would be refreshing.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 5:14:39 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FrostedFlake

I think putting a man on Mars is a stunt. And putting men there, one way, is just as stupid as anything else I've ever heard.


Men have died for less worthy reasons than to transcend this rock, FrostedFlake.

quote:

You can't colonize Mars before you terraform it. Because you can't terraform Mars after you colonize it.


Depends on the colonization pattern.

You can abolutely use a floating habitat (low gravity, dense atmosphere, plenty of sunlight; easy to do a dymaxion style floating sphere) or domed habitat (nanolayered polyurethane can take some wear and tear, including micrometeor impacts, and keeps heat well; maybe see if native concrete could be done, too). There won't be any kickstarting of the core any time soon, I think, so just settle for a local magnetic field.

quote:

Specifically, to that spot on Phobos directly facing Mars.


Nice idea. Maybe hollow it out as an experiment once we're ready to move on to the surface.

quote:

Mining equipment could stay for centuries, though, without radiation problems.


Bit of a stretch to say "without radiation problems", but I agree it's doable to avoid the equipment malfunctioning.

quote:

But the product need not be sent back to Earth.


Earth is the last place we should send it.

More baskets, not more eggs.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to FrostedFlake)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 5:22:03 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I agree, despite my negative posting. The only thing holding us back is ourselves.


China will do it, eventually, so we may find more motivation when the "Mars race" is credibly joined.

There's a pretty big wall over there as a testament to something other than the Q4 bottom line.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MasterCaneman)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/3/2013 11:07:01 PM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

I agree, despite my negative posting. The only thing holding us back is ourselves.


China will do it, eventually, so we may find more motivation when the "Mars race" is credibly joined.

There's a pretty big wall over there as a testament to something other than the Q4 bottom line.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



I have read that certain Eastern philosophies tend to run much longer (50-100 years) as regards projects and planning. Maybe that is the push we need to get moving. Competition is always a good thing. Motivates development, makes people want to do things.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/4/2013 9:28:23 AM   
Darkfeather


Posts: 1142
Joined: 3/13/2007
Status: offline 		In theory, it seems a good idea for humans to expand our horizons and explore the universe. To reach out and search for answers to the hard questions, plant our collective "seed" on the cosmos. In practice, we humans fuck up EVERYTHING we touch, cover it in trash and corruption, taint it in war and conflict. If we were to go to Mars, in less than a century it would have pollution and billboards, class separation and inflation, etc. All the things that we hate about this planet. We can't even keep our own from sliding into extinction, slowly. We don't need to be destroying other untouched entities out there until we can master that simple fact, honestly

(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
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RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/4/2013 10:23:46 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		But, if we are to grow as a species, we need to expand, if anything to preserve our genetic heritage. I believe it was Robert Zubrin (The Case For Mars, The Case For Space) who likened the human race to an infant and Earth as our crib. At some point, an infant has to leave that crib otherwise it becomes a stunted and doomed creature. Like an infant, we tend to damage, destroy, and deface pretty much everything we touch, but is it not how an infant learns how not to?

If we aren't to go extinct, we must expand our horizons to space, the rocky planets, and eventually the stars. Otherwise, we go the way of the dinosaurs, and the next dominant species on this planet that digs up our fossilized remains will have to make that decision. I prefer this not be the case.

_____________________________

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and ambition.

The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting. ~ Sun Tzu

Goddess Wrangler



(in reply to Darkfeather)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: I want the WORLD to go to Mars....not just the Unit... - 5/4/2013 11:14:26 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Mars has another benefit: we don't have any handrails.

Simply put, on Mars, we either get it right most of the time, from the beginning, or we die.

That's a selection pressure humans have yet to face since we started shaping our environment, and it's a selection pressure that works on our higher faculties, our ability to grasp the necessities of life intellectually and respond rationally to those necessities. Few of the mistakes we have made on Earth are the sort that, in the short term, are the end of the world. On Mars, many of those mistakes would quickly end life there, and we would constantly be faced with the reality of having to be responsible for ourselves and the need to live well.

I think that can be good for the species. Plus, when life on Earth is wiped out, we can recolonize from Mars.

Two pragmatically worthwhile goals right there, in my opinion.

But the best reasons: it's hard and we can do it.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to MasterCaneman)
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