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The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless people? - 5/4/2013 3:53:50 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline
I found this article an interesting read! It deals
with the concepts of femininity, masculinity,
dominance, submissiveness and a raft of other
topics in a unique way.
It's a bit long and I'll admit I've only skimmed
through it atm... I'm in the middle of searching for
something else but I thought this would be an
interesting discussion and I'll sit down and read it
properly when I have a bit of relax time.

There are sure to be a few knee-jerks but I don't
think it's saying anything too contentious, whether
or not what it's saying is accurate or just a flight
of thought fancy, I guess we'll find out! Enjoy.


Gender Centre » Resources » Magazine » Polare 19 » Article 2
The "Feminine" Behaviour of Powerless People

by Zane Kotker, Savvy, March 1980

(The Gender Centre advise that this article may not be current and as such certain content, including but not limited to persons, contact details and dates may not apply. Where legal authority or medical related matters are cited, responsibility lies with the reader to obtain the most current relevant legal authority and/or medical publication.)

Warm, sensitive, dependent, passive, emotional, cooperative, supportive, subjective. It is becoming clear to psychologists that the old string of adjectives describing women is not so much a description of femininity as it is of a social and psychological state of powerlessness. And the oppositive adjectives generally applied to men ­aggressive, active, cold, task-oriented, competitive, intellectual, objective, independent - do not represent masculinity per se, but more accurately describe the attributes of a person in possession of power. This is an idea still in transition, still being tested.

Women's speech, for instance, had been described by a linguist as full of questions and questioning intonations, overly polite, grammatically precise and marked by modifiers through which women could get out of admitting they said what they'd said. Women were thought to speak this nonassertive female dialect, designed to ward off wrath, because they were women. But when two psychologists, Faye Crosby and Linda Nyquist, took the list of "female" speech characteristics to a Boston police station and checked it against a spectrum of power behaviours, they found something enlightening: Both male and female clients pleading in front of the police desk spoke the female language. And female police officers working with male police officers behind the desk did not speak any of it. "Female" speech turned out not to be the speech of women at all: it was the speech of the powerless.

Women are hardly the only subordinates, either psychologically or socially. Children and the poor play subordinate roles everywhere, while in America blacks and certain ethnic and religious groups have long shared the back seat. Not to be forgotten, either, are the old, the sick, and even later borns (who often imagine power as existing outside themselves): some would argue the same for Southerners, for the unattractive, for the uneducated. The list is endless. Dominance and subordination make up a highly complex, and often mutually exclusive, pattern of categorisation. Each of us probably has a drawer full of identities to which others (and we ourselves) give various weights of powerlessness or powerfulness. Some are real, some are internalised myths. A man and woman standing before that police desk in Boston might be speaking in the style of the powerless there. But, at home, after they finally get their kids out of the clink, how do they speak to them? All of us stereotype groups, and these stereotypes affect us all, in turn. Take what happens to listeners.

... more attention was paid to what the videotaped men were saying simply because our society perceives males as more powerful.
If the powerless speak a special language, they are also listened to in a special way. In a study at the University of North Carolina, men and women judged by testers to be of equal articulateness were videotaped making the very same factual speeches. The tapes were shown to different groups of male and female students who were instructed to listen carefully. Then the students were questioned on the facts delivered by the speakers. The students remembered more and could answer questions better on the speeches delivered by men than on the same speeches delivered by women. Researchers Kenneth Gruber and Jacquelyn Gaebelein concluded that more attention was paid to what the videotaped men were saying simply because our society perceives males as more powerful. The powerless, no matter how well they speak, are apt to be ignored. "Wha'dja say, lady?" Other tests in which well-dressed and poorly dressed people speak, or in which blacks and whites speak, or in which children and adults speak, might further verify the testers' conclusion.

In a recent study of emotional expression at the University of Maine, eighteen women and eighteen men answered ten questions apiece. Five questions carried little emotional clout and five others were emotionally loaded. In answering the ten questions, women consistently used facial expressions, which emphasise emotion. Yet, oddly, the women were not any more expressive over the emotional questions than they were in response to the factual questions. The women were simply "putting out" emotion while responding to questioners. The men, on the other hand, were controlling emotion. This is shown by the fact that men revealed some small facial expression in responding to the factual questions, but when the questions zeroed in on emotional areas, the men's faces blanked out. Tester Paul Cherulnik thinks this is explained by the fact that women are simply trained to express emotion (whether it's there or not) while men are trained not to (even when they feel like it). One thinks of the steely faced chairman of the board whose sole "emotional" act may be to open the window of his 30th floor suite and step out. Even that will be preceded by the careful preparation of a note expressing undying love to the children and precise directions for funeral arrangements.

What good is this split? By what process of social evolution could it have developed? Why should dominants suppress emotion and subordinates express it? Ask a poker player. You don't want to reveal your vulnerabilities. Ask a mayor. You can't let them know you're scared or confused or they won't follow you anymore. Ask Queen Victoria why she never looked anxious lowering her backside onto space where she hoped soon to feel the chair. "If I did, I wouldn't be a queen!" Which is to say, "My people want me always to be secure - so they can be." It's not to look surprised in public, whereas the underlings can all roll their eyeballs in graveyards, giggle in the girls' room, or fall into fits of weeping at the theatre.

Which one of two strangers is dominant? That question seems to be in the air whenever strangers meet, and each of the strangers' behaviours will change in some way, according to how each perceives the answer. In a test involving 44 men and 44 women, Susan J. Frances of Humboldt State University in California asked each individual to hold a seven-minute conversation with a stranger of the same sex and another with a stranger of the opposite sex. She found that each pair maintained a turn conversing, but that men talked longer than women. This, explains Frances, is probably because holding the conversational floor is considered a power move, and the men (as well as the relatively silent women) had automatically assumed they were dominant in the male-female pairs. When facing another male, men talked at even greater length - trying to establish themselves as dominant. They even resorted to considerable "uhms" and "ahs" to fill and hold space. The females smiled and laughed more than the males did. Those women who did this the most later described themselves as uncomfortable during the conversation and as generally "retiring and deferential". Interestingly, the few men who did smile and laugh later described themselves as "friendly and social". Another thing women did more of was to look at their partners. Now anyone who's given a speech to a roomful of people will recall the difference in her own mood between the moment when her eyes chanced upon a listener who had fallen asleep and then upon another listener staring up raptly. If you gaze at someone while that person is talking, you reassure the speaker. The women performed this stroking service for the men far more than the men did for the women. Women also looked at the men while they themselves talked, revealing a need for feedback. Frances explains, there were no women among the 44 who acted as if they considered themselves equal to or dominant over at least some of the men? Similar tests showing what happens in conversations between patients and doctors, or students and teachers, or mothers and children would be welcome.

These last three pairs exemplify temporary states of inequality. Boston psychiatrist Jean Baker Miller points out in her popular text, "Toward a New Psychology of Women", in these pairs the task is for the superior to move the inferior along in level of skill or maturity until eventually the inequality is ended. Not so with the traditionally accepted inequalities of race, sex, class and so forth. Here the object is for the dominant to keep the subordinate in their places. And it is from this process that many characteristics frequently pinned on "passive" women and "active" men derive. Being dominant, whether in class, sex or race (or on the job ladder) traditionally means that you have to do certain things well, and this can be read to mean that you have to keep others, the subordinates, from doing them as well or at all. You have to master knowledge, skills and become task-oriented, all while, as we've seen, censuring emotional expression so that no one will spot your weaknesses. And on the broad side, you have to define the restricted roles of subordinates and convince them of the wisdom of this definition.

"Power corrupts", it has been said. This sleight of hand against others, in which the boss succumbs to a temptation to lead the underling to believe he's dumber, clumsier or inferior to make it easier to keep order, is one of those corruptions. The boss may even follow the timeworn course of rewarding subordinates for shows of submissiveness, passivity, docility, dependence, lack of initiative, lack of effectiveness in thought ("She's so cute, such a scatterbrain!") and for indecisiveness. For her own comfort, the new boss may deny that she is using subordinates to do the dirty work, and she may yearn to join with equals in a group denial. Eventually she may even convince herself that the subordinates ought to be serving her because, as everybody knows, they are inferior, submissive, passive, dumb, etc. "Thou shalt collect the garbage," she repeats daily, "and feed me, and clothe me and get me heat. I'll handle the real thinking". In her heart, she may suspect the worst about what she's doing and surely she'll suspect the worst about what she's doing and surely, she'll yearn to let herself go and have a good cry " she'll miss the "other" human qualities she's cast out of herself upon the great unwashed "them".

What about subordinates? Those labeled subordinate, Miller says, too often believe what the dominants say about them. Being subordinate means that you learn to study the smallest nuance of mood in the master. If you actually accept the master's definition of yourself, you'll worry constantly that you aren't giving enough to others. Women will serve their husbands and then their children - and there is no more demanding, if only temporary, master than the being Freud called "His Majesty the Baby". Yes, you will come to enjoy seeing children and others prosper and may not even resent the fact that your own needs and desires aren't part of the daily thrust. Alas, splendidly serving people brings few rewards. As Miller points out: Dominants don't develop the sensitivity of subordinates and people do not really know or care for their servants, even Super Mom. Or Super Worker, we might add. Of course, you may retain and even develop a sense of a better self but you do best to keep it hidden. You become Br'er Rabbit - you outwit the fox so cleverly that the fox he don't even know it sometimes. Whence "feminine intuition", Miller says: whence "feminine wiles". They're no gift, but the product of years a­ studyin' Massa. How to please the King? How to make Pharaoh smile? Wait 'till after you serve him the blueberry tart, dear.

As a political or economic subordinate, you will hesitate to rebel (if you can work up the sense that you ought to). Rebellion can bring less of food, clothing, and shelter or it can bring jail or the label "mentally ill". In trying to chuck subordinate stereotypes, women generally accept lesser pay rather than the threat of no pay at all: no pay at all is the insult rather than physical assault. Mockery too. Small rebellions by secretaries who refuse to bring the coffee are met, Miller says, by bosses who throw up their hands and pretend the "girls" have stripped them of all their power. Bottom-rung and top rung subordinates usually resist identification with each other, though not always. As Caroline Bird put it in Born Female:

When white girls went down south to work for Negro rights, they found themselves identifying with the blacks more than the white boys in the movement. They knew how it felt to shut up: take a back seat: accept segregation, exclusion from clubs, restaurants, and meetings: lower their rights to work "realistically" at the only tasks open to them: cope with imputations of natural inferiority: and see themselves portrayed in print and picture as stereotypes rather than as individuals."

Through management sticks close together, labourers have to be pummeled into identifying with each other. The young subordinate's urge is to leave powerlessness behind and try to identify with the dominant. This may mean you attack your own kind and cut your ties with Brooklyn or the kitchen. Used to giving all to serving others, subordinates who do rise will tend to bring cooperation with them as a social tool. This isn't because cooperation is a feminine device, but because it's a subordinate's survival mechanism. Underlings know that cooperation is a distinct improvement over doing all the work yourself. Newly arrived management's use of cooperation may not last long. Dominants generally consider cooperation a distinct step down, because they're used to being served. Subordinates moving up to dominance have to learn not to be paralyzed by the threat of anger from or by direct competition with other dominants.

As women begin to hold more executive jobs and experience the possession of power, they discover a truth: Not all social programming for dominance or subordination is in a women's past ­one's daily function also affects personality. This is the opening tenet of Rosabeth Moss Kanter's widely read book Men and Women of the Corporation. Harvard men and Smith women both begin on the bottom rungs of corporate ladders, and though the women may come with more of a subordinate cast than the men, a few years in a particular office chair is bound to homogenise ways of thought and action.

The armless secretarial chair, for instance, tends to develop four quantities in its occupants, male or female. They are self­ effacement, dependence on praise, emotionality and a parochial subjectivity. These are traits of course, long ascribed to women - most secretaries are women: most working women are secretaries - but Kanter claims these traits to be the natural outcome of functioning in a situation of powerlessness. The secretary is dependent on her (or his) boss. First, by showing self-effacement the secretary makes clear that she/he is not competing with the boss. The secretary supports and serves the boss in a microcosm of the world's subordinate-dominant two-some. The secretary is the cheerleader cheering, the valet laying out clothes, the wife patting and studying the husband's brow for signs of mood. Second, since the secretary doesn't get a whole lot of pay or any real power, even holding the job is at the whim of the boss, the secretary needs constant encouragement. The daily pat on the back becomes narcotic for most secretaries. This praise and assurance is sometimes given by bosses in the indirect form of intimacy. The boss will tell his or her secretary carefully hidden feelings toward other corporate figures. These tidbits become the secretary's crumbs of independent power, Kanter says. The secretary takes them to the ladies' room where she trades them off for the tidbits that other secretaries have garnered. (At last! A convincing explanation of why women are constantly pictured as gossips) Third, secretaries learn to be emotional as a way of acting out the suppressed emotions of the dominant boss, male or female; this is the office counterpart of the process which Miller described. Through Secretarial wit, many a boss is brought to laugh at, and thus acknowledge and be relieved of, otherwise unmentionable feelings. Secretaries supply the coloured travel posters and the cartoons pinned to file cabinets. Secretaries jump for joy when the contract is signed, when the deal goes through. But, fourth, secretaries are buys with detailed, rather meaningless, work and seldom learn what is happening in the company at large: This lack of hard knowledge often twists in the final screw that keeps the secretary in that powerless, armless chair.

When corporate beginners do move up to low-power positions, the climate changes, often growing noticeably hostile. The inequality switches. The beginner is now no longer subordinate, but neither is he or she truly dominant, in a low-power job. The actual inequality is so small that the low-power boss is constantly insecure, and he or she generally comes into daily harassment from the troops, be they the typing pool or the sales force. (A young teacher of high school seniors and a mother of teenage children meet much of the same; insubordination is its apt name.) Workers who will quickly muffle their aggression in the presence of a high boss only turn with a vengeance on the low boss and nip at his or her heels. The low-power boss absorbs all this hostility to avoid conflict. He or she gets bossy, becomes a nag and generally uses threats and punishments rather than persuasion and reward to get compliance from underlings. Such bosses have to be right; they take all the credit, they get rigid about rules, they breathe over every neck. Low-power jobs are usually routine, and ritual quickly replaces innovation or action; risk is avoided. The low-power boss holds on so tightly to a teacup of power that his or her knuckles whiten. Promotion had better occur, Kanger warns, before the mould of toothless hark hardens around the individual.

What happens, in Kanter's overview, if a worker rises to a position of power but then gets stuck in it? There is a rug on the floor but no hope of moving out this door. The shock that a limited future generally produces is stuck if talented workers generally evokes the same responses in men as it does in women. These responses are not dissimilar to certain aspects of the subordinate's personality. If townspeople turn to each other with social jollity during snowstorm and blackout, stuck workers turn to each other for camaraderie. The crisis, however, doesn't end for the stuck worker. The skies darken. What was once buoyant luck for smart women and men gradually becomes an ominous or even malicious fate; self-esteem drops; bitterness and anger at management sets in; workers daydream and grow catty. Women may decide to quit and have babies; men decide to quit and run small businesses from their ­basement playrooms. Workers stop working very hard and abandon any attempts at changing the system. What's the use? Eat, drink and make a few jokes. Even at the expense of each other. Cliques develop. Camaraderie replaces achievement. The guys and gals at the office become a team.

Of losers. They gripe together; they group together to offer passive subordinate-type resistance. Zombie-like, they lower Massa's production quotas and sabotage the "they", with whom they once identified. Hell hath no fury like a talented, intelligent worker scorned. Losers mock any of their group who keep on trying to advance. Who are you kidding? There's no way out of here! In this, they evoke housewives making yearly rounds through piles of dirty socks via the great waking daydream of television or alcohol. And the depressed housewife's greatest scorn is for the woman next door who works for pay. The housewife's comfort is in women like herself: The powerless may comfort each other, but they do not empower each other. The stuck worker has fallen into the same pit.

Increasingly, girls are able to reject the definition of themselves as subordinates, and some even reject the traditional definition of power as aggressive; They want power, but on their "own" cooperative, supportive terms. Kanter, Miller and the new wave of psychologist seem to pause on a common note: Dominants miss what they've projected onto subordinates, and subordinates long for power but not always at somebody else's expense.

The two halves possess an impulse to come together. When they do merge, we can expect something like mutation, revolution, a new world order. The suffering servant brought to triumph at last may establish, if only temporarily, a more kindly, cooperative, supportive kingdom - and maybe not. But for a new world, women must first get more power. To get it women have to be able to throw off the definition of themselves as powerless or substandard and some, if not all, of the subordinate behaviours.

Polare is published in Australia by The Gender Centre Inc. which is funded by the Department of Community Services under the S.A.A.P. Program and supported by the N.S.W. Health Department through the AIDS and Infectious Diseases Branch. Polare provides a forum for discussion and debate on gender issues. Advertisers are advised that all advertising is their responsibility under the Trade Practices Act. Unsolicited contributions are welcome, though no guarantee is made by the Editor that they will be published, nor any discussion entered into. The editor reserves the right to edit such contributions without notification. Any submission which appears in Polare may be published on our internet site. Opinions expressed in this publication do not necessarily reflect those of the Editor, The Gender Centre Inc.I, the Department of Community Services or the N.S.W. Department of Health.
http://www.gendercentre.org.au/19article2.htm

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 5/4/2013 3:55:07 PM >


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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/4/2013 5:44:56 PM   
littleclip


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my personal beleif is that there is more than just dominant and subordinant masculine and feminine. the university of penn has a survey called authentic happiness and in the end it shows you what your current strengths are in many diffrent areas and it says that these will change due to the current environment. my self i find that they change for at home work and when deployed so depending on the circumstances some of my skill sets could be viewed as subordinant or leadership or more nurturing roles.
it is impossible to make a set of pigion holes that everyone fits into so the same goes for what is viewed as masculine and dominant and subordinate feminine. one example is in some african tribes it is the men that don colorfull garb and makeup and jewleryand dance to attract a female. with many of these type of studies you have to take into consideration the society that conducts it and that will have a major influence on what is observed or even considered to be observed
just my 2 cents worth

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/4/2013 11:21:06 PM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleclip

my personal beleif is that there is more than just dominant and subordinant masculine and feminine. the university of penn has a survey called authentic happiness and in the end it shows you what your current strengths are in many diffrent areas and it says that these will change due to the current environment. my self i find that they change for at home work and when deployed so depending on the circumstances some of my skill sets could be viewed as subordinant or leadership or more nurturing roles.
it is impossible to make a set of pigion holes that everyone fits into so the same goes for what is viewed as masculine and dominant and subordinate feminine. one example is in some african tribes it is the men that don colorfull garb and makeup and jewleryand dance to attract a female. with many of these type of studies you have to take into consideration the society that conducts it and that will have a major influence on what is observed or even considered to be observed
just my 2 cents worth

I'm guessing that the authors would say you have to look beneath superficialities like who wears jewellery. (That detail has changed back and forth over the centuries in Europe, too, without changing the basics of male dominance.)

I'm reminded of an author who observed that almost any task has been considered men's work by some culture and women's work by some other, but one thing is constant: every culture considers men's work, whatever it is, to be more important and status-worthy than whatever is women's work.

(And as an additional observation, when a women's job becomes important, like weaving or cooking, it gets taken over by men: contrariwise, when a job that was first done by men becomes less status-worthy, like operating calculators or typewriters, it gets handed off to women.)

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/5/2013 1:51:38 AM   
theshytype


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The first few paragraphs were rather accurate in describing myself (minus the sense of powerlessness) although I don't believe everyone fits into this category or that category. There are always exceptions.
Once I started moving further down the article (I admit I began to skim), I could no longer identify with anything written and started disagreeing more and even found a few points to be insulting, particularly the portion where women take their boss' secrets to the ladies room. But, seeing the date of the article, I'm not entirely surprised.
I strongly disagree with the sentiment that "girls are able to reject the definition of themselves as subordinates" - some are not able and some are not willing, and that's not exclusive to women.
While I have experienced the hostility mentioned, in no way have I ever felt some form of power struggle ensue.
I believe, truly, that everything is more based on an individual's personality and character.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/5/2013 8:19:05 AM   
ClassAct2006


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I haven't read it all but I suspect being a pretty high paid alpha sub some of it will not apply to me. I have a lot of characteristics of liking power and success and helping others and doing my best and being a leader which some people think are male. i do not agree they are male at all. I think they are human and the fact a woman can be called wrong or aberrant just because she likes to compete is ridiculous and very very sexist.
I do lots of public speaking and I would be very surprised if my speech were full of questions and the like. I know the answers. I am usually right.

Nor do I agree that submissives (sexual subs) have to be useless, unsuccessful, wishy washy pathetic uncertain things. Plenty of alpha men want an alpha sub - they then have mutual respect of each other's success in life and okay you as a man cannot flatter your precious little ego by helping the impoverished sub who cuts her arms or wrestles with her drug habit or inability to deal with spiders but ultimately those weak pathetic kind of women are not really that great to have around and competent alpha subs work much better with successful men.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/5/2013 8:51:00 AM   
Kaliko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: theshytype

The first few paragraphs were rather accurate in describing myself (minus the sense of powerlessness) although I don't believe everyone fits into this category or that category. There are always exceptions.
Once I started moving further down the article (I admit I began to skim), I could no longer identify with anything written and started disagreeing more and even found a few points to be insulting, particularly the portion where women take their boss' secrets to the ladies room. But, seeing the date of the article, I'm not entirely surprised.
I strongly disagree with the sentiment that "girls are able to reject the definition of themselves as subordinates" - some are not able and some are not willing, and that's not exclusive to women.
While I have experienced the hostility mentioned, in no way have I ever felt some form of power struggle ensue.
I believe, truly, that everything is more based on an individual's personality and character.



I felt the same way. I had to distance myself a little bit and realize that perhaps there is truth to it, but I can honestly say that just doesn't occur in my workplace - that I'm aware of, anyway. There is absolutely no gossiping among the women. (I recognize that this may be particular to me. Perhaps women just don't gossip with me.)

It seems that bit is taken from the book mentioned, "Men and Women of the Corporation." I did a quick search on Google to see if there were any recent updates or reviews, and there are. A fairly recent review can be downloaded at a cost of $30. While I am interested, I don't quite care that much. So then I decided to view the author's Ted Talk. While her talk wasn't specifically on this topic, I figured I might get an idea for whether she has her general shit together or not. But I couldn't make it past six minutes because she bored the fuck out of me.

Anyway, while I respect that she has uber degrees and is a tenured professor, well...I've known tenured professors and they're not really all that. Her research and statements could be flawed. Or at the least, outdated. And to be honest, listening to just the first few minutes of her talk in which she not once but twice defined a person based on their sex and/or nationality (with no real reason to - it wasn't relevant) I wonder if her research was really all that objective.

Apart from that one bit (which obviously left a bad taste in my mouth) I don't see much to disagree with.

Here's something that this makes me think of. A few years ago I was having a discussion with...a tenured professor, as it happens..and he was telling me about how his department was going to be allowing women to take a longer amount of time to obtain their doctorate than men. This will allow them to stay home and raise children, he said. He was shocked when I balked at the idea. It's not that I didn't feel it was a nice idea. I felt, though, that if this opportunity were available it should be made available to men, as well. Or, on the flip side, that women must make a choice and if one wants to pursue a doctorate then other choices get put on hold while she does so, just like a man has to do. So, it's interesting that the article above states that "To get [power] women have to be able to throw off the definition of themselves as powerless or substandard and some, if not all, of the subordinate behaviours." Yet, here is a forward thinking academic environment actively pursuing women leaders in the field but taking an action with this policy change that actually exacerbates the subordination of women.

In my opinion. :)

< Message edited by Kaliko -- 5/5/2013 8:52:29 AM >

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/5/2013 9:04:26 AM   
kdsub


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The first paragraph summarizes the article and the bottom line is what we traditionally describe as attributes to men and women are false. And rather than these traditional descriptions we should use powerlessness and the powerful and forget gender. And the traditional responses are learned rather than natural.

I think this article is wrong but of course only my opinion. Yes there are times, such as when trying to talk a traffic policeman out of a ticket, when a dominant man will sound powerless or even feminine. And…yes there are times when a woman will sound dominant, such as when the traffic police office is a woman.

But

I think particular instances must be collated into a description over a long period of time and over many different individuals to obtain a average of responses to common situations involving both sexes.

If this is done I think the descriptions described as wrong will in the end be the correct ones and the traditional perception of men and women is on the average more true than not... Chemistry has more say over our actions than psychology.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 5/5/2013 9:35:52 AM >


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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/5/2013 10:35:15 AM   
egern


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Interesting article, if dated, fortunately some things have moved on. I would like to comment some bits, that I think are not depending on time.


quote:


Gender Centre » Resources » Magazine » Polare 19 » Article 2
The "Feminine" Behaviour of Powerless People

by Zane Kotker, Savvy, March 1980

"Warm, sensitive, dependent, passive, emotional, cooperative, supportive, subjective. It is becoming clear to psychologists that the old string of adjectives describing women is not so much a description of femininity as it is of a social and psychological state of powerlessness. And the oppositive adjectives generally applied to men ­aggressive, active, cold, task-oriented, competitive, intellectual, objective, independent - do not represent masculinity per se, but more accurately describe the attributes of a person in possession of power. This is an idea still in transition, still being tested."


This article proposes the idea that 10 women and men talk in different way and 2) that these differences may be due to power or powerlessness.

There has been other research which points out differences between men's and women's talk, in a few cases languages with so much difference in grammar between men and women that you can almost talk about two different languages. This was not seen from an angle of power relations, but viewed as mirroring differences in men's and women's culture.

While I can see there might be a lot in the power view depending on where you are (the article is fixed on US culture) I think that women and men by and large do act and think in somewhat different ways. It is my experience that men do not work together as well as women without a hierarchy, while women talk their way through and reach a consensus. WE do not take charge so much, it is seen as rude between women.

Is this something others can recognize?

quote:


. "Female" speech turned out not to be the speech of women at all: it was the speech of the powerless.


I a sure there is something in this, though I also think that the powerless who are rebelling against internalizing the view of the ones in power may have a language more marked by defiance than submission.

quote:


Dominance and subordination make up a highly complex, and often mutually exclusive, pattern of categorisation. Each of us probably has a drawer full of identities to which others (and we ourselves) give various weights of powerlessness or powerfulness. Some are real, some are internalised myths.


I think this is true. for most people.

quote:


If the powerless speak a special language, they are also listened to in a special way.


I am sure this is true, it is often more important who is talking than what is said - more's the pity!

BTW I am quite fond of Agatha Christie and note that at that time women in the UK were not listened to, especially not older women who were considered batty more or less. Nor were servants, who were generally considered stupid, especially women.


quote:


In a recent study of emotional expression at the University of Maine, eighteen women and eighteen men answered ten questions apiece.

In answering the ten questions, women consistently used facial expressions, which emphasise emotion. Yet, oddly, the women were not any more expressive over the emotional questions than they were in response to the factual questions.

The men, on the other hand, were controlling emotion. This is shown by the fact that men revealed some small facial expression in responding to the factual questions, but when the questions zeroed in on emotional areas, the men's faces blanked out.

Tester Paul Cherulnik thinks this is explained by the fact that women are simply trained to express emotion (whether it's there or not) while men are trained not to (even when they feel like it).


I do not understand the 'whether there is emotion or not' comment, but I think the trend described is probably still around. That is probably one reason that men live shorter lives than women, in general.

Papers from 19 something in Scandinavia showed that the trend for men at the time was that they could cry - if they could not, they were not masculine.

quote:


What good is this split? By what process of social evolution could it have developed? Why should dominants suppress emotion and subordinates express it? Ask a poker player. You don't want to reveal your vulnerabilities. Ask a mayor. You can't let them know you're scared or confused or they won't follow you anymore.


I think it gets a bit confused here - suddenly dominants and leaders are the same thing which is obviously not true.

As for having to be made of stone for people to follow you, I do not believe that. I think the 'stone' leader is really a tyrant, while the 'human' leader is a person with real charisma and talent but still a human being.

I know there are people who want icons, not people, but they are sheep! And I suspect that they want others to do their battles for them.

quote:


Which one of two strangers is dominant? That question seems to be in the air whenever strangers meet,


My guess is that this is a question based solely on American culture, I do not believe all cultures play the up-man ship game to this extent. There is not need.


quote:


Susan J. Frances of Humboldt State University in California asked each individual to hold a seven-minute conversation with a stranger of the same sex and another with a stranger of the opposite sex.

The females smiled and laughed more than the males did. Those women who did this the most later described themselves as uncomfortable during the conversation and as generally "retiring and deferential".


Smiles and laughter masking uncomfortable feelings is known by both genders - when you cannot or will not show your feelings straight out.

quote:


Interestingly, the few men who did smile and laugh later described themselves as "friendly and social".


So the women smiled when uncomfortable, and the men when comfortable. Hm. Other views?

quote:


If you gaze at someone while that person is talking, you reassure the speaker.


But some people find it too intense.

quote:


The women performed this stroking service for the men far more than the men did for the women. Women also looked at the men while they themselves talked, revealing a need for feedback.


Sometimes the researchers themselves fall into evaluating what they see according to their own per-con sieved ideas. it is hard to be neutral, and out of your own culture's views.

Looking at someone you are talking to is polite, and also a sign of involvement.

quote:


Frances explains, there were no women among the 44 who acted as if they considered themselves equal to or dominant over at least some of the men?


Same thing I suspect. What signs were they looking for? 'Male' signs of dominance?

quote:


with the traditionally accepted inequalities of race, sex, class and so forth. Here the object is for the dominant to keep the subordinate in their places.


Yes, and if you cannot make the unequal people internalize the ideas of being inferior, you cannot control them without physical power. That is why language is so important in these matters, and why some women have tried to chance things in it.

The rest of the article goes into boss and subordinate situations, which I do not find so interesting in this aspect.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 3:51:18 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


If this is done I think the descriptions described as wrong will in the end be the correct ones and the traditional perception of men and women is on the average more true than not... Chemistry has more say over our actions than psychology.

Butch


Maybe culture has perhaps more to say than both.. I include religion in culture, as well as ideologies.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 3:54:06 AM   
egern


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littleclip

it is impossible to make a set of pigion holes that everyone fits into so the same goes for what is viewed as masculine and dominant and subordinate feminine. one example is in some african tribes it is the men that don colorfull garb and makeup and jewleryand dance to attract a female. with many of these type of studies you have to take into consideration the society that conducts it and that will have a major influence on what is observed or even considered to be observed
just my 2 cents worth


Very often the rest of the world is forgotten when discussing these matters but yes, taking as much of it in as possible a more diverse pattern emerges and I think the importance of culture shows.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 3:58:50 AM   
Focus50


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Clearly one of us is some sort of readaholic.

Ok, I'm done padding out my post count....

Focus.


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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 1:39:43 PM   
kdsub


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Yes they are the learned behaviors... yet... I believe within these culture structures the same attributes and descriptions will be common..and through out all cultures they will be common even if tempered by a particular societies mores.

Butch

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 1:51:39 PM   
SomethingCatchy


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Very interesting stuff. Thank you for sharing it. I'll finish reading later when I can pay better attention.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 2:23:23 PM   
CharmingKitty


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I think as a conscious species behavior is largely unrelated to gender. Rather, it is more a product of the individual's personal reaction to how they were raised.
I believe that it is in human nature to try and classify things, but that many things don't fit neat and tidy descriptions. Although we have assigned a set of behaviors the names masculine and feminine I think that more focus has gone into manipulating these terms to belittle certain groups rather than being an actual accurate description of the causality of such behavior. If you can even try and say there is a cause for much of human behavior.
To me this type of research feels very biased, confirming children will conform to the gender roles of society. I think this research is going beyond itself, mistaking the obedience of children as behavior of gender. We as a society treat little boys and little girls very different from before they are out the womb. Indeed I'd say it's the behavior of the parents that attempts to "feminize" or "masculinize". Moreover, whether or not we consider someone masculine or feminine is based mostly on whether or not traits manifest themselves in a detectable manner and it's arbitrary whether or not we think certain traits outweigh others.

I think it's rather useless to bother studying this sort of thing in the case of humans since it'd be unethical to raise human children in various ways to observe effects on behavior. As a species we probably have some default setting for the general behavior for females and males that we then can correspond those behavior to "masculine" or "feminine" but who cares? Any breeder knows gender cannot account for behavior. As a thinking creature does it really make sense to try and come to conclusions on this when we know so little about raising and breeding our own species.

< Message edited by CharmingKitty -- 5/6/2013 2:24:54 PM >

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/6/2013 2:33:54 PM   
CharmingKitty


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Another issue is things like "society", "culture", "religion" are all nice tidy titles but they do little when it comes to actually trying to understand humans from the perspective of humanity.
These are words we have created to describe things we experience in life. The issue is that we are trying to find a collective experience, we so desperately want to be able to have a single definition that we all can agree upon. A shining filament of truth, that these words are an entity in and of themselves, pure. Rather, these words represent individual threads of ideas thousands of years old in a great tangled rope. It's a messy, untidy mystery that humans are desperately trying to go backwards to unravel. To reword, reword, retweak so that everything is cohesive. We are afraid to accept the future is going to be just as messy, undefined, and tangled.
To me, I guess that's a "feminine" trait.

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/7/2013 6:01:15 AM   
ARIES83


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Yer, so that was interesting but I do think the age
of the article does make some of the reasoning out
of date, there are the beginnings of some good
conclusions but most seem to fall short.

My own conclusions...
Hmm,

quote:

Warm, sensitive, dependent, passive, emotional, cooperative, supportive, subjective. It is becoming clear to psychologists that the old string of adjectives describing women is not so much a description of femininity as it is of a social and psychological state of powerlessness. And the oppositive adjectives generally applied to men ­aggressive, active, cold, task-oriented, competitive, intellectual, objective, independent - do not represent masculinity per se, but more accurately describe the attributes of a person in possession of power. This is an idea still in transition, still being tested.


Ok the attributes of femininity could use a bit of
work but i suppose it's workable, as for masculinity,
I would think they have included "Intellectual" to
try and describe the opposite of emotional but I
think that purpose is served by "cold", I don't quite
think that is right either...

I would probably say to that, why does it need to
be an opposite value... I see femininity as being on
average more sensitive and emotional, and
masculinity tends to be on average less so, I think
this does have some to do with gender roles but I
don't think male and female hormones are entirely
absent from the equation...

Is emotional sensitivity the mark of powerlessness?
Hmm, I don't think so, not very directly at least...

Males tend to value desensitising themselves to
emotion more than women IMO, I think this has to
do with the protector/provider mentality.

Are dependant and cooperative traits of a powerless
person?... Hmm, well possibly... A powerless person
would I suppose be dependant and more inclined to
cooperate, when referring to femininity it's
definitely relying heavily on the classical gender roles
to make those sort of connections, it begs the
question of how deeply does femininity draw from
classical conceptions and can there be a strictly
modern definition of femininity?

They say that the idea was still being tested,
whatever that means, I wonder what they decided.

quote:

In a recent study of emotional expression at the University of Maine, eighteen women and eighteen men answered ten questions apiece. Five questions carried little emotional clout and five others were emotionally loaded. In answering the ten questions, women consistently used facial expressions, which emphasise emotion. Yet, oddly, the women were not any more expressive over the emotional questions than they were in response to the factual questions. The women were simply "putting out" emotion while responding to questioners. The men, on the other hand, were controlling emotion. This is shown by the fact that men revealed some small facial expression in responding to the factual questions, but when the questions zeroed in on emotional areas, the men's faces blanked out. Tester Paul Cherulnik thinks this is explained by the fact that women are simply trained to express emotion (whether it's there or not) while men are trained not to (even when they feel like it). One thinks of the steely faced chairman of the board whose sole "emotional" act may be to open the window of his 30th floor suite and step out. Even that will be preceded by the careful preparation of a note expressing undying love to the children and precise directions for funeral arrangements.


Err... jumping out of a 30th floor window? Anyway,
the part in bold I found interesting because I do
this... I hadn't really thought about it.
I don't know if I believe I have been "trained" to
do it... Trained by who? Society? Myself? I certainly
do it sometimes...

Theres a few other points in there but all that office
politics stuff is boorrring! and it seems like a very
artificial environment to be exploring these topics in.


< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 5/7/2013 6:06:14 AM >


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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/7/2013 6:39:20 AM   
MAINEiacMISTRESS


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Sometimes facial expressions "putting out" emotions are visual ways to convey disapproval and CORRECT another person's crossing a line...such as communicating to a child or mate, "That's inapropriate, don't do that." So yes, it might be "built in" by societal structuring, or even early imitation of parental roles.

Facial expression is simply non-verbal communication, as are hand gestures.

Still, I don't see where you'd get any of this study to show WEAKNESS by facial communication. It is simply COMMUNICATION. Men often have problems communicating their feelings, and would rather leave a room (flee) than tell you what they are feeling. Inability to communicate, now THAT is what I consider WEAKNESS.

< Message edited by MAINEiacMISTRESS -- 5/7/2013 6:40:14 AM >

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/7/2013 7:18:49 AM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
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quote:

Is this something others can recognize?


Your referring to men not working together well
without hierarchy?
I would say that depends on a lot of things and
as a blanket statement it would be more
inaccurate than accurate.

Hmm, I would agree about the women, but haven't
paid that much attention.

quote:

I do not understand the 'whether there is emotion or not' comment, but I think the trend
described is probably still around. That is probably one reason that men live shorter lives than women, in general.


I think it may refer to the act of displaying
emotional signs more because it's considered
appropriate, than because circumstances have
moved you to feel it. Or even merely adding
emotional expressions to your speech as a way
of helping ensure your point is conveyed
properly.

Both are ways of greasing the wheels of
communication and geared towards avoiding
problems and expediting exchanges.

I'm not really fond of the word trained there... I
think that there are some interesting factors at
play though.

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 5/7/2013 7:32:06 AM >


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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/7/2013 7:23:16 AM   
ARIES83


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Clearly one of us is some sort of readaholic.

Focus.



Which one?

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RE: The "Feminine" behaviour of powerless peo... - 5/13/2013 5:38:57 PM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CharmingKitty

To me this type of research feels very biased, confirming children will conform to the gender roles of society.

Or that people will view them as conforming to the viewer's expectations.

There is a famous study where people were asked to observe the behaviour of babies at play and rate them for qualities such as "active," "retiring," "exploring," "gentle" etc. Everyone rated the babies in the blue rompers as showing "masculine" qualities like being active and exploring, and the ones in pink as more reserved, gentle etc. You guessed: the babies had been dressed at random.

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