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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I had to have his permission to do so. He finally gave it.

And why do you assume I am upset that he didnt continue to provide it?

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Since you have his permission now, would you be willing to discuss it?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Suddenly, that relationship is gone. For whatever reason, that control disappears. And, yes, we are all adults and should have a measure of control over ourselves.

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And why do you assume I am upset that he didnt continue to provide it?

The assumption came from your original.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
I will absolutely grant that the debilitating effect of being conditioned to have somebody else choose for you only extends to the point where you've actually been conditioned to have somebody else choose for you.

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In other words, if a submissive is trained to never eat something without the directive of a dominant to do so, but is still allowed to pick out their own clothing (to use very simplistic examples) then it would be very possible for them to have trouble deciding on what to eat and when after the relationship ends -possible to the point of them getting is a situation that superficially resembles an eating disorder- but it would not be the case that they suddenly had a hard time getting dressed in the morning.

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All the things a submissive self-directed on during a TPE shouldn't really be too much of an issue afterwards. But if the only reason they washed the dog on Saturdays is because the dominant directed them to do such during the TPE, it's not unlikely that the capacity for self-motivating to do just that is severely lacking post TPE.

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When I got out of my TPE relationship, every choice that I had to make that had been made for me during the relationship felt completely overwhelming, to the point of me completely freezing up when I had to make those choices, and being incapable of pushing myself through it and getting it done anyway.

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It wasn't the same feeling as with a depression, it was an overwhelming inability to decide what it was that *I* wanted to do in that situation. I literally didn't know what I wanted, and because of that, was incapable of doing anything at all. On a large set of things that are habitual for most people, I had to relearn my own preferences all over again.

Getting over it took a couple of months (I'd say about 3 months to get over the brunt of it, so that the "freeze up" didn't happen on a daily basis anymore, and about 2 years for it to get to the point where it never happens again). The way I did it -though this may not work for others- is by NOT following the choices that my master had made for me, and deliberately do something else... anything else, and test and retest and test again, until I found something that worked for me that was different from what he wanted me to do.

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I tried in the beginning to stick to the routine that he laid out for me to have some semblance of normality in my life, but found that I lacked the internal motivation to stick to a routine as strict as he would have been able to enforce on me. That then caused me to frequently and repeatedly "fail" to live up to his expectations, which in turn felt like I was being disobedient. Only, without a dominant there to punish me for my "disobedience" there wasn't a way for me to move on from the "failure" which resulted in me just getting deeper and deeper into a pit because I kept perpetually beat myself up for "failing to obey" without release, or a way to make myself move on from that feeling.

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Oh I totally understand that there are numerous situations in which it's absolutely impossible for the dominant to do "the best possible thing" or situations in which "the best possible thing" to do is to cut the submissive completely out of your life, sometimes for your own sake, sometimes for their sake, and sometimes for both party's sake.

I'm not saying that any dominant who doesn't help their ex-submissive through the transition is by definition a lousy person.

Sometimes not helping is the best thing you can do for all people involved.

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However, even if not helping is the best option, or the only option available, it doesn't make your responsibility for the situation being what it is any less -and that's not at all to imply that the submissive has no responsibilities in this at all.

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I think that a lot of people at the start of TPE relationship don't have a back up plan, on how to handle things when they go wrong.

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Internal enslavement can be a very dangerous thing. There have been very many threads on this board pointing out the dangerous when the goal of the relationship is to make one person completely and utterly dependent on another person. I think that understanding that danger, and the vulnerability it creates, and the responsibility that goes with it, both during as well as after the relationship ends is very important for a dominant to recognize, understand, and acknowledge... even if it leaves you in a situation where your only and/or best option isn't the most optimal one, it's still important to hold yourself accountable for the choices you've made along the way.

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That holding yourself accountable for the result of your own choices is important for your own sake... just like the submissive needs to be able to recognize their own responsibility for whatever choices they did also make.

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Yes, and I have to say that I'm not really seeing a whole lot of that on the thread. Since I don't do instantaneous TPE, I'm not seeing much from the s-types saying they consented to deeper and deeper levels of control and thinking about the outcome.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Permission to leave.

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I am not sure why that would make you believe I was upset that he no longer had that control. I missed the control, not necessarily his.

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lol Its almost like Dom/mes are from Venus and slaves/subs are from mars on this thread.

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He finally got to the point that he realized the pain our relationship was causing me. He agreed that I could go. At that point, I was free to leave, and I made plans to do so. It was not a bitter break up, no fighting, no arguing. He wasnt happy about me leaving, but it truly was best for us both. He was able to move on and so did I.

But I did miss being controlled. Having my life organized. Having someone else to focus on and center me. There were a lot of mixed emotions, a lot of tears, a lot of frustrations.

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Different than what I meant. I thought you were saying something else.

I was actually asking about your timeline. Ishtar mentioned hers was three months. I don't know how long your prior dynamic lasted or how long it was to feel comfortable taking your power back.

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Saying you missed the control implies that you felt a loss for it, yes? Doesn't that mean not having it was negative to you in some way? I get that it wasn't necessarily related to the person.

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You asked for permission to leave. He took a period of time to grant it. That could be translated to say that you did have a transition period between those two points.

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Then, you got what you wanted, not being under his control anymore. Yet losing that control was the problem and caused so much strife?

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Are you saying you got what you wanted but then you didn't necessarily like what you got?

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Service is pleasant to receive. Person X was the person in service to Me. Dismissing person X means that I will no longer receive the service. I would rather person X was not in a dynamic with Me and that means that I'll accept the fact that I will be doing the tasks that were involved, Myself. I proceed to clean the cat box, wash the dishes, and whatever else was being done prior. I may not like cleaning the cat box, but it's preferable than person X doing it and the negatives that were associated with the prior situation. The concept of service is still nice, but I don't dwell on not having it.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
From the time he realized it was best till I moved out was about 7 months. Finances played a part in that.

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This goes back to your original question....

How can you be upset that he didn't continue to provide it when you obviously didn't want it?

I wasnt upset that he didnt continue it. I was upset at the loss of any of it at all. There is a difference.

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Yes, I had a period of time, however, the dynamic didnt change within that period.

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Not at all. Doing what one needs to do is not always what one wants to do.

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Gotta love how a Doms mind works... lol

Meh. I'm sure the sadistic side of My brain is a lot more fun.

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I would have loved to have stayed in service. Yet, that service was holding us both back. Within a year of me moving out of the area, which was a year after me leaving his home (yes, I lived local for a year), he met someone and was married. Not a big deal for most here, I am sure. But this was aman who was jaded severely by a bad marriage. I cant help but believe that my service was holding him back from looking for someone else. I am glad he did and is happy.

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We did have bad moments, negative moments, positive moments, ect. If the only harm was to myself, I may still be there. But I also recognized the harm to him. He came to see it as well. My leaving was not a completely selfish decision ( I know you didnt say, or imply, that it was, I just feel a need to point that out.) And that knowledge pushed my decision.

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That didnt help with the sudden loss of the feeling that I was serving someone, making their life better in some small way. Being in service, for me, has more to do with their life than with my own. The way you presented the "Dom talk" indicates, for Doms, its all about the ease of your life, and we should look at it the same way. Suddenly, I should see my life as easier. Fact is, it became harder.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact


The above paragraph from you has Me thinking that we define TPE differently. Either that or I don't micro-manage nearly as much as most folks think when I mention that I'm high protocol.

Here's a good example of one of the differences. I think you're coming from a place of a situation of directive, when I'm coming from a place of granting permission. They sound like the same thing but maybe they are not. In the directive, the slave doesn't really have input or the ability to request. In the granting permission scenario, they do.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This is the part that I can't identify with. (Probably shouldn't surprise you much.) Sooner or later, you have to wash the dang dog. You can't just let the dog live in it's own filth because you can't decide when to do it. Responsibility, at some point, has to override how you feel about it.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

This is more that I don't understand because I don't consider some things "choices". The decision is only about when, not if. Anything that was associated with outside the home (job, school, etc) was already directed from other sources, anyway. Anything within the home that was a household chore still needs to get done eventually. How many days does it take for a person to decide when they are going to do the dishes?

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
No comment on this really for the subject at hand. I do think it would be a great contribution when the concept of punishment in dynamics comes up the next time because it's one of the benefits for the s-type for those who include it in their dynamics.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Again, I think we are back to our differences in what we consider TPE. Turning over your will to another doesn't mean they are the only thing in the universe. There's still supposed to be all of that stuff that makes a person a healthy human being. Outside friendships. Personal growth. Family. Hobbies that you engage in for your own enjoyment. Community ties, both lifestyle and non. Some, if not all of these don't have to become shattered when the dynamic ends.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Yes, and I have to say that I'm not really seeing a whole lot of that on the thread. Since I don't do instantaneous TPE, I'm not seeing much from the s-types saying they consented to deeper and deeper levels of control and thinking about the outcome.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact
That being, how long where you living with the prior person in a TPE dynamic?

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I can accept this in some cases and in other cases not. Some break free from the other person's control and blatantly display their own will beforehand. I've watched some where the s-type is just so glad to be free that they adjust rather quickly. I would have to think the surrounding situation has a lot to do with it.

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ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Yes I think that may very well be the case. I personally -and this is not an insult or judgement in any way- wouldn't use the term "slavery" or TPE for what you're describing here.

To me, slavery is about more than controlling the slave's behavior by granting or refusing permission. It's about shaping their mind, so that their obedience becomes conditioned to the point that they are no longer capable of refusing obedience.

If that's not what you set out to do in your dynamic, we're talking about two completely different things, with an overlapping vocabulary, due to the lack of standardized definitions.

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The dog will still get washed... eventually. But it may not be washed as often as it was before, or on a set routine, or far less often than it should, or far more often than it should, or may take far longer to wash it than it should, or not as much time as it should take.

"Should" in all of these cases being defined by the previous owner's expectations.

Most slave's I know are heavy perfectionists that have a very hard time managing their own expectations to a level that becomes realistic (either over doing it, or not doing it enough). The thing an owner does in such cases it take those expectations, put a norm on it, and make it attainable for the slave to be -often for the first time- satisfied with their own performance.

Take that away, and they crash not only back to the state prior to the dynamic, but often deeper than that, because now there is a memory of how things could be that they're failing to achieve.

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When to is a choice. It's also the choice that's most taken over why the owner in dynamics of the type I speak of.

The entire directive of "how often and to what standard should task X be done" is under their control.
That makes the task achievable, because the only thing the slave needs to do is to live up to that expectation to be satisfied that it's done "up to standard". When that standard disappeared, they fall into a situation where nothing is ever done "up to standard" because setting that standards is exactly what they struggle with, and having it set for them exactly what they miss from the previous dynamic.

Relearning how to tell yourself you did a good job is hard.

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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't in a heavy punish dynamic. I don't even need all the fingers of one hand to count the times I was actually punished.
What I missed wasn't the punishment. I missed having a standard set that defined the difference between failing, good enough and excelling.

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None of this applies to me. He WAS my universe. More so, I was expected to actively work at making him such.

I didn't have ties, hobbies, friendships, communities out side of him.

My world was him, and was defined by him.

What I did recreational was him, and was defined by him.

Who I interacted with was defined by him.

There wasn't an area of my life that wasn't directly under his control. Everything I did was because he wanted me to do it.

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I didn't consent to more and more control. In fact, I didn't consent at all at him taking control to begin with, not in the way that's usually thought about. He had control because he took it, and I was unable to stop him from doing so.

The choices that I in this case was responsible for was give him the opportunity to do so, by refusing to think about certain things.
Small nuance, but an important one.

A year of full-time live in, prior to that a year of long distance with frequent blocks of month long visits.

Like I said, he controlled my world, both prior to and before moving. In the year I spend apart from him I got virtually cut off from all my ties to other people other than work.

Now I don't want to paint him off as abusive because of this. The type of dynamic he put upon me was very much what I was looking for. Had it been different, I wouldn't have considered it slavery.

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ORIGINAL: LadyPact

I can accept this in some cases and in other cases not. Some break free from the other person's control and blatantly display their own will beforehand. I've watched some where the s-type is just so glad to be free that they adjust rather quickly. I would have to think the surrounding situation has a lot to do with it.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
More so in a TPE relationship, subs and slaves (subs can be in a TPE relationship to some extent too) often have their emotions controlled for them.

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Does anyone else consider the effects of that lost control when reading posts about break ups? Should that make a difference?

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Overall, if I thought obeying me was such a hideously damaging thing then there is no way I'd allow the woman I love to do so. If I thought being married to me was so awfully bad for her I'd divorce her. In short, I don't agree with any of the assumptions in this post.