RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (Full Version)

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YN -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/14/2013 7:56:58 PM)

The fact that the English and United States posters think "Hispanics" are a a "race" is itself a premise I find hilarious. We have "Anglo-Hispanics" (Vincent Fox, the ex-president of Mexico) Asian-Hispanics (the former president of Peru was Japanese) European Hispanics or as is the case of most a mixture of every part of the planet.

Since under this "science" the language spoken determines IQ, perhaps language also affects other parts of physiology. For example of the most obese nations on Earth, English is predominantly the language. Under this "science" perhaps the world record obesity rates in England, Canada, Scotland, Malta, Australia, New Zealand and Ireland are caused by their use of English as a language, and the high obesity rate of Mexico is due to their widespread fluency in English. Perhaps I should only speak English once or twice a week in order to avoid gaining weight, and Mexico should regulate the use of the language.

Perhaps India could avoid weight problems among their population by mandating another language, and other nations could regulate its usage.

With similar Tory science I can demonstrate imperialism and several other interesting things are also caused by speaking English.

Of courses there is the principle that perhaps only mentally challenged "Hispanics" would immigrate to the United States in the first case.

But as others have noted in this thread, similar "studies" and "science" were produced during United States history demonstrating Africans, Irish, Italians, Jews, Germans, Chinese, Filipinos etc. were intellectually substandard immigrants to the United States.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/14/2013 8:50:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
If you don't believe "IQ" is any measure of intelligence then why are you defending the findings in dissertation. You stated with respects to race and "IQ":


Sorry. I mis-stated myself. Having a high IQ isn't going to guarantee you to be highly intelligent, and having a low IQ isn't going to guarantee you to be of a low intelligence. In general, those with a higher IQ are going to have a higher level of mental functioning. And, understand that is a generality, and will not hold true in each and every case.

quote:

quote:

It's not being blamed on anything, DC. It's a statement of fact regarding the test subject group. That's it.

Then, let's treat The Bell Curve, another study of test subjects and "IQ", as fact, too - in which case white Americans are stupider than Asian-Americans.


Didn't you already state that the book's premise has already been deemed false? What's the point of going on with it?

quote:

I find it quite interesting that the moment the tables are turned you suddenly start spouting arguments about individuality and how IQ doesn't measure intelligence.
So let me ask you this - WHAT is "IQ" measuring and why should we care? You seem to only want to place reliance on "IQ" when it serves your political agenda (and this is precisely why people are criticizing Richwine). You can't have it both ways.....


1. IQ is, imo, one predictor of mental functioning. I believe it is also one predictor of mental capacity and ability to learn. Thus, higher IQ people will trend towards having a higher level of mental function, have a greater capacity and ability to learn. In other words, it is an awful lot like "potential." Not everyone reaches their potential, and some extend far beyond their potential.

2. I have no political agenda that involves any measure of IQ. Disagreeing that an article shows bigotry does not automatically mean I agree with everything the author states.

3. We should care about our own IQ's and how we can maximize our mental functioning. I couldn't care less what your IQ is and I'm sure you couldn't care less about what mine is. I know where mine places me and I also know that simply having a particular IQ isn't going to guarantee any level of achievement simply because the IQ is at that level.



tweakabelle -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 1:34:13 AM)

The debate about the alleged connection between IQ 'tests' and racial theories is nothing new. It has circulated around the work of Hans Eyesenck for as long as that moron has been publishing. Here's one critique dating back to (IIRC) the 70s

At an academic level, these theories have been subjected to intense criticism. Not only the alleged connection between 'IQs' and race but also at the alleged relation between IQ 'tests' and intelligence. To the best of my knowledge, there is no broad academic consensus on what constitutes 'intelligence', so the question of measuring it becomes even more problematic. The notion that one can design a one size fits all test for 'intelligence' is something I find laughable.

It is sad to see that some universities still accept dissertation proposals that rely heavily on such an unscientific, dubious measure as 'IQ tests'. But it's no surprise to see such shoddy 'tests' employed to develop racist theorising, such as the OP. Racist theories have no basis in science, not even in biology. Racial theories can only be created on the basis of research so shoddy and methodologically unsound it doesn't merit the title 'research'.

It could earn the title fiction perhaps but not research - just as the alleged superiority of any race over another is fiction. That the theories outlined in the OP rely on such a dubious base lends weight to the charge of racism. Proper theories relying on proper research don't need to resort to fiction for support.



mnottertail -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 6:50:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Now see here fucktoy, are you from eastern India?  Let's settle that first.  And you may be very well smarter than I, that is no massive trick.


I am not sure what you mean by "from". I was born in the U.S. and part of my heritage is from India if that is what you mean.

And just because I am of Asian background, I don't go around saying I'm smarter than everyone else even though there are studies that actually support that notion.

I reject any and all attempts to link race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc. to broad based intelligence. And if someone is going to play that game - then respect the totality of the findings. Don't pick and choose.

White conservatives need to get over themselves. Seriously. [&:]


Well because if your heritage is Eastern Indian you are generally grouped with Asians, and Western Indian then Caucasians.  Not that it is in anyway a true picture.........I am just making smartass comments is all, it really doesn't matter.

I just wanted to call you fucktoy, it gave me a little wood.



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 9:27:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

2. I have no political agenda that involves any measure of IQ. Disagreeing that an article shows bigotry does not automatically mean I agree with everything the author states.



But here is the problem. The author of the dissertation DOES have a political agenda involving race/ethnicity, IQ and immigration. Therefore, you might want to consider the author's motives. To use faulty logic and faulty constructs to provide "scientific support" for immigration laws in inherently unfair, if not immoral. You might not have any agenda. But the person who wrote this and was advising on immigration policy does. Do you agree with people using a faulty study to support a political agenda?

All that the rest of us are doing is trying to point out why the study is inherently faulty to begin with - i.e. to point out why no one who is making policy should be relying on it.

You seem to want it both ways. To endorse the study and the results but then not let anyone use it for a political agenda. What do you propose this faulty study be used for??

And again, if you agree with this study, then why don't you agree with the study that says Asian Americans are smarter than whites. Again, if that is accurate why don't we allow people to use that to make policy, too?



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:05:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
2. I have no political agenda that involves any measure of IQ. Disagreeing that an article shows bigotry does not automatically mean I agree with everything the author states.

But here is the problem. The author of the dissertation DOES have a political agenda involving race/ethnicity, IQ and immigration. Therefore, you might want to consider the author's motives. To use faulty logic and faulty constructs to provide "scientific support" for immigration laws in inherently unfair, if not immoral. You might not have any agenda. But the person who wrote this and was advising on immigration policy does. Do you agree with people using a faulty study to support a political agenda?
All that the rest of us are doing is trying to point out why the study is inherently faulty to begin with - i.e. to point out why no one who is making policy should be relying on it.
You seem to want it both ways. To endorse the study and the results but then not let anyone use it for a political agenda. What do you propose this faulty study be used for??
And again, if you agree with this study, then why don't you agree with the study that says Asian Americans are smarter than whites. Again, if that is accurate why don't we allow people to use that to make policy, too?


The article cited by the OP does not support the allegations put forth by the OP. The article shows zero acts of bigotry. It may allude to some, but there is no proof.

If I were to link to an article about the Great Barrier Reef and make the claim that Chinese citizens, on average, are shorter than American citizens, I would be routinely criticized (and, in this case, rightly so) about the lack of support for my assertion by the article I cited. While the article in the OP does have some connection to the OP's assertion, it doesn't support the assertion.

Not surprisingly, this has been my assertion all along. The statistics compiled in the dissertation may certainly support the analysis that the studied group (Hispanic immigrants) showed an average IQ lower than the control group made up of native white Americans. No one has shown how the article cited in the OP supports the allegation that the dissertation's author is a bigot.

If a study showed that white Americans had shorter dicks, on average, than non-white Americans, would the study's author be a bigot for reporting the findings?



mnottertail -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:11:31 AM)

But if you go read the actual study and the words contained therein and the lack of foundation, all you got is bigotry.   To ignore it, because it wasn't served up to you and you would actually have to have some idea of what you are making pronouncements on would seem to be ineffectual, wouldn't it?



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:23:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
But if you go read the actual study and the words contained therein and the lack of foundation, all you got is bigotry.   To ignore it, because it wasn't served up to you and you would actually have to have some idea of what you are making pronouncements on would seem to be ineffectual, wouldn't it?


Yet the article cited doesn't support the OP's assertion, does it?



mnottertail -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:24:47 AM)

No more than Mein Kampf  supports Hitlers assertions, I suppose.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:26:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No more than Mein Kampf  supports Hitlers assertions, I suppose.


Certainly on topic. [8|]



DomKen -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:48:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
But if you go read the actual study and the words contained therein and the lack of foundation, all you got is bigotry.   To ignore it, because it wasn't served up to you and you would actually have to have some idea of what you are making pronouncements on would seem to be ineffectual, wouldn't it?


Yet the article cited doesn't support the OP's assertion, does it?

The article references the study which is undeniably bigoted so yes the article does support the OP.



mnottertail -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 11:50:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
No more than Mein Kampf  supports Hitlers assertions, I suppose.


Certainly on topic. [8|]



It certainly is, glad you can recognize, relate, assimilate and act better than you used to.



thompsonx -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 12:05:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The article cited by the OP does not support the allegations put forth by the OP. The article shows zero acts of bigotry. It may allude to some, but there is no proof.


Allude???no it links you to the proof.


quote:

Not surprisingly, this has been my assertion all along. The statistics compiled in the dissertation may certainly support the analysis that the studied group (Hispanic immigrants) showed an average IQ lower than the control group made up of native white Americans. No one has shown how the article cited in the OP supports the allegation that the dissertation's author is a bigot.


As has been pointed out several times the fifth paragraph of the op's cite gives a link to what you say it does not do.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 12:33:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
The article cited by the OP does not support the allegations put forth by the OP. The article shows zero acts of bigotry. It may allude to some, but there is no proof.

Allude???no it links you to the proof.
quote:

Not surprisingly, this has been my assertion all along. The statistics compiled in the dissertation may certainly support the analysis that the studied group (Hispanic immigrants) showed an average IQ lower than the control group made up of native white Americans. No one has shown how the article cited in the OP supports the allegation that the dissertation's author is a bigot.

As has been pointed out several times the fifth paragraph of the op's cite gives a link to what you say it does not do.


The fifth paragraph from the article:
    quote:

    But reports this week about the content of Mr. Richwine’s 2009 doctorate dissertation, in which he said the lower I.Q.’s of immigrants should be considered when crafting public policy, set off a furor, with some immigration advocates decrying his writing as racist.


So, the proof of bigotry was the immigration activists decying the writing as racist?

Or, was it the 5th paragraph of the quoted section in the OP?
    quote:

    Racism and xenophobia have no place in the debate on immigration reform, period,” said Jose Antonio Vargas, the founder of Define American, a pro-immigration group. “I hope this is a lesson for all sides that what the public is looking for is a fair and honest debate on immigration reform, not long discredited racial theories designed divide us rather than unite us.


Essentially, a pro-immigration activist calling it racism.

Which one is it?



FunCouple5280 -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 12:36:10 PM)

There only needs to be an accusation, no proof required.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 12:40:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280
There only needs to be an accusation, no proof required.


Guilty until proven Innocent, from here on out, eh?



FunCouple5280 -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 1:01:18 PM)

Always is with race. Now when numb nuts started screaming N******* at his comedy show, he was guilty as hell. but if you associate a minority with a negative statistic, scholarship has no bearing what-so-ever.



thompsonx -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 1:03:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

As has been pointed out several times the fifth paragraph of the op's cite gives a link to what you say it does not do.


The fifth paragraph from the article:
    quote:

    But reports this week about the content of Mr. Richwine’s 2009 doctorate dissertation, in which he said the lower I.Q.’s of immigrants should be considered when crafting public policy, set off a furor, with some immigration advocates decrying his writing as racist.


quote:

So, the proof of bigotry was the immigration activists decying the writing as racist?


I said there was a link in the fifth paragraph...I am sorry if I was unclear but there is a link in the fifth paragraph.








thompsonx -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 3:07:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FunCouple5280

Always is with race. Now when numb nuts started screaming N******* at his comedy show, he was guilty as hell. but if you associate a minority with a negative statistic, scholarship has no bearing what-so-ever.


You have read the disertation and do not feel that the author is a biggot?



DomKen -> RE: Another Bigot Leaves Heritage Foundation..... (5/15/2013 3:37:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

The fifth paragraph from the article:
    quote:

    But reports this week about the content of Mr. Richwine’s 2009 doctorate dissertation, in which he said the lower I.Q.’s of immigrants should be considered when crafting public policy, set off a furor, with some immigration advocates decrying his writing as racist.



So, the proof of bigotry was the immigration activists decying the writing as racist?

Theproof of Richwine's bigotry is that there is no way he wrote a Phd dissertation on the subject of IQ without finding the copious research showing IQ tests show a cultural and test taking experience bias.

Also he grossly abuses the IQ range where any result within a standard deviation of 100 is pretty much the same thing.

All in all it is an entirely bigoted document and when combined with the bigoted "All mexicans will be on welfare forever" crap he just produced for the Heritage Foundation it is clear he has some serious animus towards brown people.



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