RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations

RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion

Message

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 7:16:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes I have seen on reality police shows where some woman cries he hit me and even without any marks the police handcuffed the boyfriend and when he swore he never touched her they simply said tell it to the judge. It is rather scary that some areas the police seem happy to cart someone off to jail simply on the word of someone else. I don't want to derail the thread, but I've been involved with some of those cases. In the UK there are police guidelines which strongly encourage them to make arrests in domestic abuse cases and, where possible, to gather enough evidence to prosecute even if the victim changes his/her mind about it. This is because in domestic abuse cases there have often been dozens of violent incidents before the police arrive on scene for the first time, and it is incredibly common for the victim to say 'it was a misunderstanding' the next morning. Often the victim is 'punished' when the police have gone. They have to treat the incident as though this might be the only chance to help the victim - a few hours in custody can give them time to find a refuge, or change the locks and install panic alarms. In my experience a he-said-she-said incident with no injuries or supplementary evidence will almost never get to conviction. But often there might be other evidence - the victim may reveal other older injuries, the house may be in disarray, the neighbours may make a statement saying they heard yelling and crying, they might have a history of assault etc. And those few hours can be enough to get into the civil courts and get an injunction. When someone is found to be making a false allegation the police take action against them. But they will make absolutely sure that it is false, because so many people out of fear or love will change their story and say it didn't happen, and the last thing you want to do is stop a domestic abuse victim from contacting the police for fear of arrest. It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. The system is far from perfect. Personally I have seen more cases fall through when something had been going on than cases getting to court on flimsy evidence. Anyway, yes it is scary, and yes some people misuse it but hopefully this provides some insight about those cop show scenes.

JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 7:18:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes I have seen on reality police shows where some woman cries he hit me and even without any marks the police handcuffed the boyfriend and when he swore he never touched her they simply said tell it to the judge. It is rather scary that some areas the police seem happy to cart someone off to jail simply on the word of someone else. Heh, welcome to being male in America. I honestly cannot imagine engaging in any sort of sexual behavior with a woman who wasn't very well known to me (eg, a wife or a woman on the track to being my wife). I cannot imagine engaging in any sort of sadism with a woman except under similar considerations. In other words, if I am not prepared to trust her with my life then I'm not prepared to fuck her or hit her.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 10:28:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven LL, I see two implied assertions in your post. 1. LP has a more widely known and stronger rep than I do. 2. She's worried, so I should be too. I agree with the first. I disagree with the second. I don't think that she has any cause for concern. She's got years of experience, and no claims thus far. I'd believe a claim against a newbie or someone who was not associated with the community far more than I would someone with an unblemished track record and associations with three communities. Steven, You are only talking about false allegations within someone's "kink" community. That's where I think some of the confusion may be. While obviously false allegations within kink groups might be easier to deflect with a "stellar" reputation, often these allegations are made outside of that group. While in the end, someone might be vindicated, the hassle of having to deal with Children's Services, Police, military commanders and employers along with the damage that causes is what you aren't thinking about. While the reality is that the courts don't care what a parent does sexually behind closed doors, the investigation to ascertain it IS not in front of the children means your kids may be in foster care during that time. Since most states are employment at will, it doesn't get you your job back. If things get really out of hand, a person can be publicly shamed and that doesn't simply go away because a person is innocent. So yes, everyone needs to be concerned and prepared to defend themselves, and dating a lawyer might help it go away quicker, but the damage will often still be done.

Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 4:22:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. You try getting a digital rectal exam and spending several hours in an isolation cell just because you have the wrong genitals, then tell me how much better it is. That's what happens here if a man is accused. Whenever police do anything like that, it's an injustice backed with the threat of lethal violence and unlimited support, an injustice anyone is powerless to prevent, avoid or stop. Hence, it's a million times better that someone gets murdered than that the police hold or harm anyone that hasn't done anything illegal. IWYW, — Aswad.

JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 4:30:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. Let me put my money where my mouth is on this one. I would quite literally prefer to be brutally raped to death than agree with this statement (and your whole post).

UllrsIshtar -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 4:49:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. Let me put my money where my mouth is on this one. I would quite literally prefer to be brutally raped to death than agree with this statement (and your whole post). Agreed

AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 4:59:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. Let me put my money where my mouth is on this one. I would quite literally prefer to be brutally raped to death than agree with this statement (and your whole post). Not necessarily my own feelings, rather what I understand to motivate current policies. I certainly don't know enough to comment on injustices in anyone else's system - hell, I've been out of ours for a year now so what I know is rapidly going out of date. I don't know what changes I would make if it were down to me alone. I honestly can't think of any right way to deal with it. All I can see is the same thing I have already witnesses; shattered lives and traumatised children. I don't make these posts lightly or out of any belief in a police state or that men are evil. Jeff, you and I have spoken around my experiences before and I hope you know how I wrestle with these issues. As for the 'wrong genitals' - I just can't think of any way to respond to that without derailing the thread into debated about cultural normalisation of sexual violence against women, so respectfully, I'm going to decline to respond to that Aswad. I will be giving it some thought.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 6:02:46 PM)
Basically, it is saying one life is worth less than someone else's potential pain. We aren't talking convictions here in the US. In domestic abuse, there is not typically more than one night in a jail cell unless there is substantial evidence that there is danger, such as a record of violence. It's rather appalling to me that people would rather one person be killed than someone else have to fight an allegation in a legal forum. That's saying that it is ok to brand someone a liar and risk their life rather than make someone uncomfortable. Perhaps I am missing something here.

Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 6:42:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders I will be giving it some thought. That's more than most would. Thank you, Athena. [:)] And, yes, I mind the "cultural normalization of sexual violence against women", too, which is why I think it's encouraging that we're seeing results from attempts at changing this status quo up here, and why I mention it as one of the possibilities for dealing with it. There have been experiments here in teaching the kids- of either gender- how to think about consent and the like, from the basic hypothesis that unless this is taught, they will uncritically absorb norms from the environment. For instance, teaching that either party can say no/stop at any time, teaching that there's no such thing as "owing" anyone sex, etc. This could be a worthwhile thing to copy elsewhere. To be clear, I should point out where my problem lies. I have seen, firsthand, the consequences of rape of various sorts. I've seen a wide range of outcomes, ranging from people having their lives ruined permanently, to people that shrug it off with little more than a "fuckin' bastard" and never give it another thought. I've seen men that have been raped, too. Men, women, adults, children, elderly, I get it, I empathize, and I'm all for measures to reduce the incidence of rape, as such. I probably haven't seen as much of it as you, but I get where you're coming from on this point. In rape, the rapists are culpable for their actions. With them lies the cause and the fault. They initiate* the violation, the injustice. And there lies the point: initiation. When police arrest someone without anything more to go on than an upset person making allegations, the police might be initiating* an injustice, with the full backing of us all, and if you resist, they're allowed to escalate the injustice as far as they like, realistically without consequences for such injustice. This is part of why we have courts and the like, rather than having a highly efficient setup for "corrections" based on weighing statistics for the maximum net good: so as to make sure that we, as a society, do not initiate injustice or violation, but rather only act when we have proof that our actions are just and porportionate. If we fail to prevent the murder of an innocent, we're simply not doing enough good, but we're in the right. If we harm an innocent, we're in the wrong, and we're the ones doing the bad things. I'm not willing to authorize people I don't know to do right and wrong alike so long as they, as a group, average doing more right than wrong, and to back them in applying whatever force they deem necessary and call it right, even those times that they're doing wrong. Each (wo)man wrongly executed is murder, with the blood on all our hands. And each (wo)man wrongly imprisoned is kidnapping under threat of lethal violence, again by all of us, even if by proxy. That mistakes happen, I get. But there's a difference between acknowledging that mistakes will happen, and sanctioning a departure from the principles that should govern such things- "first, do no harm", "innocent until proven guilty", and so forth- which is what it amounts to when we say "well, what would happen without our intervention is a worse outcome than us being wrong in our intervention". This line of thinking neglects responsibility. When the police do wrong, they become responsible, in the same way the criminals are responsible, and without being held accountable, to boot. The ends are noble, but the ends do not justify the means. That's the essence of my point. IWYW, — Aswad. P.S.: On the point of cultural normalization, I would say- having already acknowledged the same harmful norm you point out- that two wrongs don't make one right. P.P.S.: I may have gotten the topic mixed up with another thread. My apologies.

Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 6:59:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Basically, it is saying one life is worth less than someone else's potential pain. No, it's rejecting utilitarianism, because it reduces all humans to instruments, in the same way rape reduces a (wo)man to an instrument of pleasure. The question is one of responsibility. When the rapist rapes, s/he is responsible for that action. When the police wrongly acts, they are responsible for that action. We can, of course, go with the utilitarianist view that any means are justified, so long as the ends- the result- is the greatest possible net happiness. But I can say with near absolute confidence that you wouldn't like what a perfect implementation of such a policy would look like. quote: We aren't talking convictions here in the US. This is an international forum. If the US has a problem with its persecution of domestic violence, the natural solution is to deal with that problem, rather than creating a new one, which is what the policy being discussed amounts to. quote: It's rather appalling to me that people would rather one person be killed than someone else have to fight an allegation in a legal forum. And the converse is appalling to me, that people would rather police do wrong to an innocent than let a crime happen. If, every time there's a hostage situation, police immediately shoot the hostage and then proceed to take down the hostage taker, that will decrease the number of hostage takings, but it will involve the police committing murder to accomplish that goal. As I said in my reply to Athena, the ends do not justify the means. Your view seems to take the actors out of the action, dealing only with the situations, rather than the people involved and their individual culpability for their own actions (and, crucially, not for the actions of others). quote: Perhaps I am missing something here. To me, it seems so, but I may of course be missing something myself. IWYW, — Aswad.

kiwisub12 -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 7:12:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady No, it's rejecting utilitarianism, because it reduces all humans to instruments, in the same way rape reduces a (wo)man to an instrument of pleasure. — Aswad. I disagree with this statement . Rape is not about pleasure.

Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 8:03:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kiwisub12 I disagree with this statement . Rape is not about pleasure. Okay, so you disagree with a part of the analogy, but you're missing the point the analogy was used to make: that reducing human beings to instruments to be used as means to an ends is ethically somewhere between dubious and despicable, going by most of the schools of ethics on which Western civilization are currently based. As for the part you disagreed with: it comes down to «I want X, and I can have it, so I will.», which you may analyse as power or whatever else you care to, but the simple fact of the matter is that rapists don't generally cry out in pain from what they're doing, but rather obtain gratification from it, which we may call pleasure if we're going to be a bit crude, such as when turning the point into an instrument with which to illustrate a completely different point. The animal part of our decision making processes weighs salience against aversion, generating an impulse we may call desire or repulsion (for lack of a better term), depending on the polarity of the impulse. Our higher cognitive processes can attempt to act contrary to the impulse, but it is ludicrous to posit that the salience of the stimulus is irrelevant to the generation of the original impulse to be curbed: that simply isn't how the human mind works. Hence, ethically, the first fault lies with accepting the reduction of the victim to an instrument for the satisfaction of one's impulse, which of course is where the analogy comes into the picture. The impulse to want to help people, or to want to prevent harm, can be a very strong one, but we can commit the same fundamental 'sin' in reducing others to instruments in satisfying that impulse, and it'll be no less of a 'sin' for its 'altruistic' origins. Indeed, as history shows us, it can be far worse, because we can believe ourselves in the right, thus forestalling the moral reservations that almost anyone will have in acting while believing ourselves in the wrong, and accordingly enabling us to go further in our 'sins' when we fail to recognize them as such. And there we're back on topic: the 'good' impulse can do great harm, through some of the same ethical shortcomings as the harm it seeks to prevent. Allegations often spark this 'good' impulse, and LP is getting an unfair taste of what harm can be done in the name of 'good'. IWYW, — Aswad.

LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/17/2013 9:43:19 PM)
What you seem to be saying is that a woman contacts the police, says, "John Doe raped me," and the police run out and arrest the guy. This is why I mentioned the US, because perhaps that is what they do where you live, but that isn't what they do where I live. Yes, it is that simple to make the allegation, however, a simple allegation does not result in arrest. In nearly every situation, an investigation takes place. That involves asking the woman (I'm going to use the male/female thing here since that is the most common in rape) uncomfortable details about the event. Obviously, if the woman is in the ER when the allegation is made, a rape kit is done to gather evidence. Photographs are taken. Details about time, place, how the whole thing transpired, etc. are asked. So if John Doe was definitively named, they don't run out and throw cuffs on the guy. Will they bring him in for questioning? Of course. That isn't suffering some major indignity in the investigation of a crime, is it? They will get details from John Doe. Does he know or was he with the woman in question? Of course, if he says he was somewhere else, he needs to prove that. Why? Because he was outright named by the woman. If he can show he wasn't with her at the time this supposedly happens, the police don't keep him, he is let go. Yes, I expect him to suffer the indignity of answering some questions in the name of justice. So let's say that he says the sex was consensual. Is he isn't disbelieved and arrested? No. We now enter the dreaded land of he said/she said. Yes, this is where things can get a bit more complicated. If he says all the bruises and marks were consensual, yet the police can't find a single person to say that the woman ever "liked it rough," yea, he is going to have a tough time. That is where LP's saying emails, and those types of things can come in handy. In most places in the US, when there is he said/she said, the police don't make the decision to arrest someone. That comes from the State Attorney's office, and trust me, they aren't running around arresting people willy nilly just because a woman cried rape like you see on television. Prosecutors don't like to take cases they don't think they can win as a general rule of thumb. Many District Attorney offices have their own investigators, separate from police who gather information and evidence. So yea, it does appear as though you are saying that people are arrested just because someone makes an allegation and that simply doesn't happen. Not in the US, but if it does where you are, then I agree that is a very bad policy. But let's remember, the OP wasn't simply talking about a false allegation of rape. LP was including various forms of domestic violence, inappropriate environments for children, etc. In NJ, the state where I live (and I believe in the entire US), an allegation of child abuse (even by anonymous call to children's services) must be investigated (typically within 24-48 hours). Yes, I do believe that our children need to be protected, and I agree with the theory of erring on the side of caution when it comes to children. This doesn't mean a parent is arrested, but it does mean the allegations are investigated, and yes I agree wholeheartedly that those investigations sometimes go far afield of what should be considered normal. Fixing the problem isn't so easy, and no, I'm not willing to let parents abuse, molest, starve, neglect or kill their children until we can fix it. And I say that having had run ins with our local children's services in my family, and not just the strain that comes with it, but the after effects as well. Yes, mistakes do happen, and I'm glad you can admit that. And yes, when they happen, those responsible are held accountable. Usually in the form of large monetary awards. When there has been blatant abuse of the system to wrongly convict someone, those people ARE held responsible. Were they always? Probably not. However, in this age of technology, it is very easy to trace the source of these things. No it isn't always easy to determine what was a mistake and what was truly an abuse of power/office. What you seem to be suggesting is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You don't dispense with an entire system, no matter how imperfect, without something to take its place. Just like no one can list every imaginable limit in BDSM negotiations, instead having some of them come up, when they come up, the justice system attempts to change things as they see something that isn't working. Progress is never as fast as people would like it to be, but progress does happen.

SomethingCatchy -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 12:12:50 AM)
This is one of a few reasons I'm reluctant to get involved in bdsm groups. I've had enough trouble with mentally insane landlords reporting me as an animal abuser and accusing me of murder because I eat meat. I still have the voicemail she left as she screamed into the phone about what a freak and disgusting murderer I am. Animal control still wanted to confiscate my pets even though I hadn't done anything wrong because this woman so violently hated me when she found out I intended on eating the chickens I'd purchased. Why did she do this to us? Because we insisted that if we were going to pay rent, we were going to live in a house that wasn't falling in on itself, that we have a water heater that actually works, and that all of these repairs that needed to happen should come out of rent since it was illegal for her to lease out the property as it was. If some crazy nut job female will do it to her tenants there are plenty of crazy nut job creeps lurking in the bdsm crowd looking for some way to score some drama to feed on.

LadyPact -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 5:51:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Heh, welcome to being male in America. I honestly cannot imagine engaging in any sort of sexual behavior with a woman who wasn't very well known to me (eg, a wife or a woman on the track to being my wife). I cannot imagine engaging in any sort of sadism with a woman except under similar considerations. In other words, if I am not prepared to trust her with my life then I'm not prepared to fuck her or hit her. I'm going to come back to this point because, as much as I hate to say it, I honestly do believe that there is a gender bias on this issue. It's not that I don't think female tops, etc have to be cautious on this subject as well, (I did start the thread, after all) but if I were male, I think I'd have to be even more so. While I don't have any statistics to base it on, I do think false allegations happen against men more frequently than women.

JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 5:56:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders I don't make these posts lightly or out of any belief in a police state or that men are evil. Yes, I do know that and the fact that I like you so well is what kept you as a "friend" in my head after that statement. It's also true that I am not naive and I understand the issues you are writing about also. But any solution which automatically criminalizes a full 50% of the human population on the basis of genitalia is not a solution in my mind. That would be a case of the cure being worse than the disease. If we turned this around and said it something like this... "Police show up at door for DV call and things look sketchy so they automatically haul the woman off to jail where she may or may not be inspected, probed, and/or mistreated in other ways by the authorities or other inmates." would you still think it was a suitable answer? In that solution I've turned the assumptions around. Now I'm seeing men as the automatically better caregivers and I'm looking at women as unstable emotional creatures who may need a "cooling off" period.

BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 6:59:12 AM)
One can only hope, and pray that one's choices in friends/lovers/play partners work out well enough, that he/she doesn't feel the need to destroy self or both of you, at the end of the relationship. It's good that you have been attentive in maintaining any evidence necessary, to show that you are simply who you portend to be. Truth is, that for me, I wouldn't have been that cautious with someone I trust. There are different kinds of men, and women, and I wonder if the "kiss and tell" factor is more widespread within the BDSM community. To myself, a real man, assesses his relationships, may or not get counseling assistance when needed, but leaves a relationship with all his morals/values, and without becoming a classless loser, simply because the relationship has come to an end. I don't have much respect for men who offer more than superficial information regarding past relationships, when asked. It's always been my position, that if you don't respect her, and cannot keep certain things to yourself, you lack some moral wiring that I find very important in a man. M

kalikshama -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 7:45:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders It must suck to be falsely accused of domestic abuse, I guess the justification is that it's better someone spends six hours in a cell than someone potentially gets murdered. You try getting a digital rectal exam and spending several hours in an isolation cell just because you have the wrong genitals, then tell me how much better it is. That's what happens here if a man is accused. Whenever police do anything like that, it's an injustice backed with the threat of lethal violence and unlimited support, an injustice anyone is powerless to prevent, avoid or stop. Hence, it's a million times better that someone gets murdered than that the police hold or harm anyone that hasn't done anything illegal. IWYW, — Aswad. I've spent two nights in jail on two separate occasions. Both times, there were better ways the police could have handled the situation, and one time their decision process was rather bizarre. There was no digital rectal exam so all I suffered was cold and inconvenience. I did learn my lesson about getting into the situation that prompted these nights in jail and do approve of the "better safe than sorry" approach. ...the making of false allegations of spousal abuse is much less common than the problem of genuine victims who fail to report abuse, and the widespread false denials and minimization of abuse by perpetrators (Jaffe et al., 2003; Johnston, Lee, et al., 2005; Shaffer & Bala, 2003)

kalikshama -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 7:57:13 AM)
quote: While I don't have any statistics to base it on, I do think false allegations happen against men more frequently than women. This is not directly on point, as you are talking about what gender receives the false allegation and the following which gender makes the false allegations. (Please note that due to the part in red one cannot extrapolate that 33% and 45% of allegations were false as those lacking evidence are included in this number.) http://www.xyonline.net/content/fact-sheet-2-myth-women%E2%80%99s-false-accusations-domestic-violence-and-misuse-protection-orders Allegations were more likely to be substantiated against men than against women (67 versus 55 percent). In other words, counter to some popular perceptions, men rather than women were more likely to make allegations of domestic violence (and substance abuse) in family law proceedings which were not substantiated. However, this study cannot determine rates of false allegations, as it could not distinguish among ‘unsubstantiated’ allegations between those which were false and those which could not be determined due to lack of evidence (Johnston et al., 2005).

Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 9:00:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady What you seem to be saying is that a woman contacts the police, says, "John Doe raped me," and the police run out and arrest the guy. If you go back and see what I was replying to, you may note that it was the line of reasoning Athena offered on arresting the man whenever a domestic violence call is placed, regardless of whether or not there is any evidence that any domestic violence has taken place. But, yes, where I live, which is not relevant to the US, but bears mentioning since you raised the topic, it works like this: if you're named, the police will pick you up immediately, stick you in an isolation cell until evidence has been collected, then interrogate you. Afterwards, they either return you to the cell to wait for your remand trial or let you go, usually the former, unless all necessary evidence for prosecution has been collected and you don't pose any risk (including flight risk). Your passport is temporarily confiscated until the final trial is done. quote: Yes, it is that simple to make the allegation, however, a simple allegation does not result in arrest. From what I've heard here and elsewhere, an arrest often occurs in the US if there is a simple allegation of domestic violence. quote: Yes, I expect him to suffer the indignity of answering some questions in the name of justice. Agreed. I don't object to investigation. I sincerely hope I didn't give that impression. quote: So yea, it does appear as though you are saying that people are arrested just because someone makes an allegation and that simply doesn't happen. Not in the US, but if it does where you are, then I agree that is a very bad policy. Glad we can agree on this point. quote: Yes, I do believe that our children need to be protected, and I agree with the theory of erring on the side of caution when it comes to children. So long as your idea of erring on the side of caution is having a low threshold for investigation, and being prompt about making the investigation, I'm fine with this. quote: What you seem to be suggesting is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. No, I'm advocating that mistakes should only occur in the execution of a system, not be designed in from the ground up. quote: You don't dispense with an entire system, no matter how imperfect, without something to take its place. Given the track record the lack of a system has, I'm inclined to disagree here, but I'm not married to that opinion. quote: Progress is never as fast as people would like it to be, but progress does happen. I hear you say it. But the system we both agree to be problematic, the one we have here, is billed as progress, and indeed is progress, from a certain perspective, a perspective I read (and hopefully misread) you as advocating. IWYW, — Aswad.

Page: << < prev 1 2 [3] 4 5 next > >>

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.0625