RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 9:06:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

While I don't have any statistics to base it on, I do think false allegations happen against men more frequently than women.


In Norway, where even the mere mention of false allegation is a serious taboo, about one in ten rape charges result in the person making the allegation being found guilty of false allegations, for which there is a very high standard of evidence (e.g. she named the guy, and he was at a hotel in another part of the country at the time, documented with CCTV at the hotel; that being one concrete example, where the result was 4 years in prison for her).

IWYW,
— Aswad.



JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 9:33:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
In Norway, where even the mere mention of false allegation is a serious taboo

And in the US. To even suggest that it is plausible that under certain circumstances (say.... divorce proceedings) a woman might have incentive to make shit up is enough to get the feminists out in force. 2% is the figure (based on nothing by the way) but that is the party line and we're all sticking to it.



kiwisub12 -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 9:33:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

I disagree with this statement . Rape is not about pleasure.


Okay, so you disagree with a part of the analogy, but you're missing the point the analogy was used to make: that reducing human beings to instruments to be used as means to an ends is ethically somewhere between dubious and despicable, going by most of the schools of ethics on which Western civilization are currently based.

name of 'good'.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



No , actually i didn't miss the point - i specifically disagreed with one of your sentences - that rape is about pleasure. If it was, i think men would not choose old women and young children to rape - they would be more likely to go for 20- to 30-somethings, attractive and available.

The rest of your analogy - meh, i'm not sure the a child with no secondary sexual characteristics is going to generate any sexual stimulus. If there is no sexual stimulus then the stimulus itself is coming from somewhere else - ie power/control. Equally, when looking at an elderly woman, who thinks "sex". And if rape isn't about sexual stimulus in these two examples, i think it reasonable to say that other rapes aren't about sex either.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 9:50:48 AM)

I'm going to forgo the quotes just to save time.

First, if that is the system you have, and I know you will disagree, but I feel it is worse than not having a death penalty.

What you need to remember when talking about what you have "heard" here and elsewhere is that the stories, more often than not, are told by the ones who are arrested. Sorry, but they do tend to blow things out of proportion.

Within the majority of the US, IF someone is arrested on domestic violence, the furthest they will go before trial is a county lock up. Contrary to popular opinion, county lock ups are not places where someone is in much danger or faces a great deal of indignities. Now, this certainly may not be the case in large cities, however, then you have to consider that in large cities, someone accused of domestic violence isn't likely to be placed in lock up outside the PD, because there simply isn't room.

So, when an accusation of domestic violence occurs, will the one who has the allegation be hauled off to jail (again, jail and prison are VERY different places)? If the immediate evidence (signs of violence, injuries) shows that violence occurred, quite possibly. Where they go, however, is not much different than the "drunk tank." In other words, police remove the alleged offending party from the situation at hand, but mostly to give both parties time to calm down. Locally, I can tell you that actual arrests for domestic violence are a small number. That isn't to say that charges of domestic violence are small, because they are not. Restraining orders are issued on a temporary basis, and the accused is made to leave the premises. Now of course, if the accused is stupid enough to make threats to their accuser while the police try to peacefully remove them, then that's on them, isn't it? Suffice to say, screaming, "I'm going to get you for this, you stupid bitch!" (just an example) kind of seals one's fate. Usually, they aren't even taken to the police department unless something indicates they pose a continued threat.

True false arrests occur in less than 1% of cases, and actually convicting innocent people even less so. When you consider how many are actually arrested each year, that is a very, very small number. However, the media doesn't make a habit of saying, "In today's news, 10,000 people were arrested, had a fair trial and were convicted," you aren't going to hear anything but the problem cases, making it appear that mistakes are the norm, not the exception.



JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 1:01:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
True false arrests occur in less than 1% of cases, and actually convicting innocent people even less so. When you consider how many are actually arrested each year, that is a very, very small number. However, the media doesn't make a habit of saying, "In today's news, 10,000 people were arrested, had a fair trial and were convicted," you aren't going to hear anything but the problem cases, making it appear that mistakes are the norm, not the exception.

Given that this conflicts wildly with peer reviewed research papers I've looked at, do you have linkage on this? And no, that's not a snide comment or attack. I've been trying to track down the false accusation thing and I've only found a few such papers... all pointing to higher numbers but all also possibly suspect for various reasons in my mind.



AthenaSurrenders -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 1:33:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: AthenaSurrenders
I don't make these posts lightly or out of any belief in a police state or that men are evil.

Yes, I do know that and the fact that I like you so well is what kept you as a "friend" in my head after that statement. It's also true that I am not naive and I understand the issues you are writing about also. But any solution which automatically criminalizes a full 50% of the human population on the basis of genitalia is not a solution in my mind. That would be a case of the cure being worse than the disease.

If we turned this around and said it something like this... "Police show up at door for DV call and things look sketchy so they automatically haul the woman off to jail where she may or may not be inspected, probed, and/or mistreated in other ways by the authorities or other inmates." would you still think it was a suitable answer? In that solution I've turned the assumptions around. Now I'm seeing men as the automatically better caregivers and I'm looking at women as unstable emotional creatures who may need a "cooling off" period.


First off, I never said it was the right answer. Secondly, I don't think the situation you describe is what is going on in reality.

I re-read my original post to make sure I didn't use male pronouns for the perpetrators. For the record, I have seen a number of situations where it was the woman carted off to the police station, and two couples involving same-sex partners. It is more common for the male to be the alleged perpetrator but not a given. I don't want this to be oversimplified into a pure gender issue.

Unless the police officers witnessed the violence taking place, there was clear evidence pointing to one party being the victim (like obvious injuries) or one party is violent towards the officers on arrival, they are generally very careful to separate the parties, hear both sides of the story and try to make a good judgment.

I can't speak for your legal system, but I have never personally known any mistreatment take place in the police station cells. I understand I may seem biased since I worked on the same 'side' as the police. But there is CCTV in cells, there are strict protocols in place for everything from searching to offering meals, absolutely every detail is recorded. The system is set up to minimise the opportunity for mistreatment. I have no experience of prisons but a person wouldn't go to prison unless bail is refused, which, in England is rare for DV cases unless there are very serious injuries and/or the accused has a considerable record of violence or bail breaches. So from my perspective, the chances of a person being horribly mistreated in a he-said-she-said type of case are very low. Inconvenienced? Yes. And undoubtedly it's distressing.

Ultimately the statistics that we have available (imperfect as they are) show that women are more frequently victims of domestic abuse injuries and murders than men, and that males are more frequently the perpetrators. If it showed the opposite then I assume the overriding assumption would be towards what you describe, and there would be more cases where women were arrested 'just in case' than men. I would feel the same about it as I do about the current situation. It sucks, but it's preferable to people getting murdered because something was missed.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 1:44:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
2% is the figure (based on nothing by the way) but that is the party line and we're all sticking to it.

Are you talking about false allegations of rape? 2% isn't based on nothing. The numbers I've seen go as high as 7%, but every single study has methodological flaws, perhaps unavoidably. So a number like 2% is a way to say, "We don't really have any idea, but it happens often enough that we need to put it on the board."

Much more solid numbers indicate that women initiate domestic violence more often than men. This comes from women self-reporting, so there aren't as many methodological flaws. DV is very much like driving: women get into more accidents, but men cause more hospitalizations and deaths. So actuaries assess men higher premiums, because their accidents cost more, even though the "average man" drives more carefully than the "average woman." Male outliers are much more expensive than female outliers.

Same thing with DV. Women are more prone to strike first than men are, but men are more likely to shoot to kill.



JeffBC -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 1:47:02 PM)

My understanding was that the 2% number originated with a judge in New York and was an offhand estimate that became fact. That number also doesn't pass the plausibility test when it comes to divorce proceedings. Humans, in general, simply aren't that good.



RedMagic1 -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 1:54:19 PM)

I hadn't heard that. In any event, this page provides some comparison and contrast of studies and methodologies, in case you haven't already seen it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_rape_accusations



Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 3:45:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

i specifically disagreed with one of your sentences


Okay. Let's disagree about that in the "Is rape about power?" thread instead. It gets OT here.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



CynthiaWVirginia -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 4:30:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonlightmaddnes
I have seen on reality police shows where some woman cries he hit me and even without any marks the police handcuffed the boyfriend and when he swore he never touched her they simply said tell it to the judge. It is rather scary that some areas the police seem happy to cart someone off to jail simply on the word of someone else.


When I was leaving California to move to WV, I heard that Nevada (or was it just Las Vegas) had passed some new law, that if the police were called, by anyone, over domestic violence, that SOMEBODY was going to be arrested. (Many people were calling for help, but in the end wouldn't press charges.)

It's not that way in WV, lol, I've seen the police intervene in some knock-em-down, drag-em-out domestic brawls with nearby neighbors...where there were no arrests.

To respond to the original post (am only half way into this thread), yeah, I have always worried about a bottom changing his mind afterward, and having guilt or whatever and slamming my reputation and/or causing me legal problems. I save emails and take other precautions.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 5:25:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
True false arrests occur in less than 1% of cases, and actually convicting innocent people even less so. When you consider how many are actually arrested each year, that is a very, very small number. However, the media doesn't make a habit of saying, "In today's news, 10,000 people were arrested, had a fair trial and were convicted," you aren't going to hear anything but the problem cases, making it appear that mistakes are the norm, not the exception.

Given that this conflicts wildly with peer reviewed research papers I've looked at, do you have linkage on this? And no, that's not a snide comment or attack. I've been trying to track down the false accusation thing and I've only found a few such papers... all pointing to higher numbers but all also possibly suspect for various reasons in my mind.



Well, you admit yourself that what you have read is "suspect," so I wouldn't rely on that. Mine was based on twenty years experience in the legal community.

However, let's put it into some perspective. The number I found for arrest yearly, which excludes only traffic offenses was nearly 14.3 MILLION. The Innocence Project, which I'm sure you know works for people they believe have been wrongly convicted (as opposed to being acquitted based on technicalities) have exonerated less than 250 people since the year 2000. Keep in mind that those were the number of exonerations and covered arrests and convictions for various years.

So I will let you do the math on that because even if the 239 people exonerated by the Innocence Project were based on arrests for one year, considering more than 14 million people were arrested, that would be even less than my project less than 1%, wouldn't it?

Now, it is common knowledge that of the more than 14 million people arrested, at least half of them will claim innocence. This is certainly not the same as actually being innocent.

As for false rape allegations? My personal opinion is that there is likely a high number of false rape allegations. The current "climate" as mentioned in this and Steven's other thread is that far too many women are claiming rape when they (and the person they had sex with) were drunk and there is morning after regret, or women who didn't think they were raped until someone else convinced them they were. This is an extremely dangerous thing to be happening because it can often serve to lessen the believability of those who actually have been raped, and much like false allegations of domestic violence and child abuse made out of anger and seeing some kind of retribution diminishes the situation for those who truly are victims.



littlewonder -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 7:24:25 PM)

When I worked at the courthouse, I dealt with domestic violent acts on a daily basis. Usually the accused party is removed and taken to the county jail to cool off, usually overnight. They are then released and if the accusing party takes out a restraining order during this time, the accused party will have to find somewhere else to go. Then the hearing arrives for both the restraining order and dv offense. If the accused party does not show up, a warrant is placed and he is automatically found guilty. If the other party does not show, the cases are thrown out of court.

Now this is PA. I have no idea about other places.

I dealt with restraining orders and my experience was that maybe about 60% of the cases of domestic violence or rape were false allegations. Either both parties were drunk and both were causing violence to each other or the accusing party was just angry over the other party either cheating on them or some other offense the party didn't like or the accusing party was caught cheating and it was an easy way to explain the cheating.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 8:37:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

When I worked at the courthouse, I dealt with domestic violent acts on a daily basis. Usually the accused party is removed and taken to the county jail to cool off, usually overnight. They are then released and if the accusing party takes out a restraining order during this time, the accused party will have to find somewhere else to go. Then the hearing arrives for both the restraining order and dv offense. If the accused party does not show up, a warrant is placed and he is automatically found guilty. If the other party does not show, the cases are thrown out of court.

Now this is PA. I have no idea about other places.

I dealt with restraining orders and my experience was that maybe about 60% of the cases of domestic violence or rape were false allegations. Either both parties were drunk and both were causing violence to each other or the accusing party was just angry over the other party either cheating on them or some other offense the party didn't like or the accusing party was caught cheating and it was an easy way to explain the cheating.



And yet, I don't see this as some horrific indignity that is occurring. If the parties don't live together, the accused is often not even locked up overnight, just told to stay away from their accuser.

As I said, sadly, DV complaints have risen exponentially and yes, many are false accusations. The domestic violence laws are designed to make it very easy for a woman to get protection from a violent partner. They aren't because you are arguing and calling each other names, although it is often used that way. It makes it very difficult for women who truly are in fear of their safety to get the protection they need because the police and courts are very jaded over all the people using the system for their own agenda.

However, that is all the more reason someone should make sure they can protect themselves from false allegations.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/18/2013 8:52:34 PM)

In "women states" there is an automatic lock them up for 22 hours policy. The police have no discretion. A friend of mine went to his wife's workplace, took her by the arm telling her she had to quit and come home. She protested and he explained he had all the bills under control now and she should come home and care for the kids. She had protested mildly, but then submitted and went with him. Someone from the office had called the police.

While driving home, they were pulled over. He was arrested despite the wife's protests and insistence that everything was OK. She would not file charges nor would she testify for the DA, but the state picked the case up anyway. He was poor and had a public defender, took a plea bargain for kidnapping in return for probation. Seriously, probation for kidnapping? That is how ridiculous it can get . . . no real kidnapper ever gets probation. Fucking election year.

There was no way for him to protect from an errant coworker wrongly calling the cops and a zealot DA, in an election year, pushing conviction count up for politics.



LafayetteLady -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/19/2013 7:13:59 AM)

Sure there was a way for him to protect himself. He could have not driven to his wife's workplace and publicly humiliated her and given the impression to others he was abusive.

There is no logical reason he couldn't have waited until she returned home from work. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

Even with a public defender, he could have not accepted a plea bargain and went to trial. He could have brought publicity to his case to show how the police have a tendency to overreact (if they truly do).

So is your comment about a 22 hour hold about that case, or many others? I lived in Florida for a bit, and worked for the DOC. I had not ONE DV case cross my desk and I saw close to 1,000 offenders each week. So I would say that things have recently changed (in the last 7 years), or it could be simply your county, but I doubt it.



Aswad -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/19/2013 7:15:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

First, if that is the system you have, and I know you will disagree, but I feel it is worse than not having a death penalty.


Why would I disagree? I hate the system we have up here.

That said, I oppose the death penalty, but that's another debate entirely.

quote:

What you need to remember when talking about what you have "heard" here and elsewhere is that the stories, more often than not, are told by the ones who are arrested. Sorry, but they do tend to blow things out of proportion.


Of course. I'm noting a certain consistency, and a match with what's been said by other sources, but it's quite possible that- as you seem to claim- police usually don't do much on a DV call unless there's evidence that DV has taken place.

quote:

Within the majority of the US, IF someone is arrested on domestic violence, the furthest they will go before trial is a county lock up.


The question being, do they go there without physical evidence being present?

quote:

In other words, police remove the alleged offending party from the situation at hand, but mostly to give both parties time to calm down.


Again, quite fine, so long as there's physical evidence when police respond to the call.

quote:

Restraining orders are issued on a temporary basis, and the accused is made to leave the premises.


Same as above. Fine, if there's evidence.

quote:

Now of course, if the accused is stupid enough to make threats to their accuser while the police try to peacefully remove them, then that's on them, isn't it? Suffice to say, screaming, "I'm going to get you for this, you stupid bitch!" (just an example) kind of seals one's fate.


Yeah, that constitutes evidence, so long as the police document it.

quote:

True false arrests occur in less than 1% of cases, and actually convicting innocent people even less so. When you consider how many are actually arrested each year, that is a very, very small number. However, the media doesn't make a habit of saying, "In today's news, 10,000 people were arrested, had a fair trial and were convicted," you aren't going to hear anything but the problem cases, making it appear that mistakes are the norm, not the exception.


Never said mistakes are the norm.

However, if false arrests occur in less than 1% of cases, you're doing better than some of the best estimates I've seen for the human error bound (1.6% error rate as the minimum consistently achievable in any public- or publicly run- service over time). That casts doubts on the accuracy of the number. Basically, if you're always doing twice as well as humans can do over time, you're measuring your accuracy the wrong way.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



FriendlyMuppet -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/19/2013 8:06:22 AM)

Unfortunately, sometimes all it takes is one person running his or her mouth to cause all sorts of problems, even if the events that person reports didn't actually happen. An example:

Years ago, I had put in about a decade of service to the bdsm community organizing events, parties, setting people up with each other, playing a lot of behind the scenes actions to keep communities thriving, and all that sort of stuff that takes lots and lots of time but very little actual credit. Anyway, a very sought after dominant woman took an interest in me and decided she wanted to be my new owner. Sounded great. I met with her for coffee one afternoon, and it took me probably fifteen minutes of conversation to realize that this woman was bat-shit crazy and not in any of the good ways, so I thanked her for her interest and stated that we probably weren't a good match and then drove her home. The next day, friends were calling me, talking about how she has been going around talking about how rude I was and made up all sorts of massively ridiculous claims that were so opposite of anything I would ever do, yet she dug her heels in and decided to make a big deal of it. This continued for months with her doing everything possible to make sure I was uninvited to practically every social function in the bay area. If she heard I was dating someone, she would call them up and make up all sorts of even more ridiculous stories that in some cases were physically impossible, yet she'd continue.

The worst part of this is that all of my "friends" basically just chalked it up to "one of those things" and they continued to invite her to every social function for the simple reason that she was "hot". All of my years of work, sweat and tears (okay, not so many tears) amounted to nothing against the false accusations of a woman who looked really good in a dominatrix outfit.

I moved from the bay area and left the scene a short bit after this. Never have returned.



ResidentSadist -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/19/2013 8:24:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Sure there was a way for him to protect himself. He could have not driven to his wife's workplace and publicly humiliated her and given the impression to others he was abusive.

There is no logical reason he couldn't have waited until she returned home from work. Sorry, but that is the way it is.

Even with a public defender, he could have not accepted a plea bargain and went to trial. He could have brought publicity to his case to show how the police have a tendency to overreact (if they truly do).

So is your comment about a 22 hour hold about that case, or many others? I lived in Florida for a bit, and worked for the DOC. I had not ONE DV case cross my desk and I saw close to 1,000 offenders each week. So I would say that things have recently changed (in the last 7 years), or it could be simply your county, but I doubt it.

Manatee County (Tampa) in Florida and Wayne County (Detroit) in Michigan is where I heard stories about the holds. Thanks for asking, my info is old so I looked it up. Apparently both are pro-arrest not mandatory.

For anyone that cares:
Domestic Violence Arrest Policies by State (2007 is most current I could find)

The thing about the kidnap story was that it ALL went wrong. I remember his telling the story and how he was so happy he landed a new gig so she didn't have to work anymore. Yes, he was being a bit macho telling her to quit at the office instead of waiting for her to come home or explaining better . . . but I can see myself in his place. If I had just won the lotto, I would be excited and go tell my spouse to quit work instead of asking her permission, waiting or whatever. In his case, he was just a vanilla dude in the music industry and they had been going through a rough patch financially, which is why she protested at first. I see both sides of that coin and why she was initially concerned, but the outcome was horrible and induced by outside forces.

Imagine some masochist telling stories and an outside force like a coworker overhears it and and calls the cops. Or some submissive after a bad breakup, they are talking on the phone to a friend and playing it up for sympathy while a family member overhears it. The police come and find a cross, cage, whips and chains in a dungeon . . . holy shit.

18 States (in 2007) were Mandatory Arrest and 9 states were Pro-Arrest. The point raised in another reply was that if there is a police call, someone is going to jail no matter how much protection from false allegations you have. And in the kidnapping case example or another case at a public dungeon in Salem where undercover cops witnessed "assault" with a weapon (whips), they prosecuted even when there were NO allegations or from the "victims". Can you imagine being at the local dungeon play party and suddenly the paddy wagon pulls up and vice arrests almost everyone.

I believe the OP has given very sound advice and my point is that there doesn't even have to be someone making false allegations to land someone in a world of trouble. An old Arab proverb says, "better a thousand times careful than once dead". That is why I am very careful about who I get involved with.



WinsomeDefiance -> RE: Protecting yourself from false allegations (5/19/2013 8:29:29 AM)

I've been thinking about this thread a great deal, because it touches on a few sensitive areas for me. So, a quick disclaimer. I'm not sure if I'm too close to the subject to see it rationally or not.

Personally, I think there is a high probability of DV calls being false allegations. I base this first on my personal experience as a survivor of domestic violence and as someone who has had experience and personal conversations with other survivors of domestic violence. My experience is that most individuals who are involved in long term relationships with an abuser rarely report the violence against them. I've had the opportunity to speak with a large number (although in the scheme of things probably a drop in an ocean) of survivors of domestic violence, and I can't think of one example where the person's suvival didn't depend upon discretely removing themselves from the danger.

Secondly, I have seen numerous instances of angry couples - drunken couples etc. fighting and in anger calling the police and making allegations of abuse against their partner when, in fact, they were the ones who were the aggressor.

I understand that my personal experience doesn't really give me any great authority on the subject or even speak to the validity of my experience being statistically valid. I view most statistics with a jaundiced eye, anyway.

Regading protecting yourself against false allegations. I've said it before, and I strongly believe this. It isn't, typically, the submissives who needs protection against the big bad abusive dominant. There are a messload of White Knights out there, with the express purpose of protecting such delicate flowers.

What I've seen personally is there's a messload MORE really messed up and emotionally dangerous bottoms/submissives out there that can really do some damage than there are predators. Not to say there aren't predators, and there isn't danger to the bottom/submissive. Just that there seems to be a weird and illogical focus on the protection of submissives and strange blind denial by many of the actual messed up and crazy ass bottoms/submissives out there. Also, there are some eager to experience novices who get in over their head and experience remorse after the fact. Not quite as dangerous as the vindictive loonie toon but still a factor in my belief that:

Personally, I think the Top/Dominant takes the greater degree of risk.

Regarding reputations - I have also seen a lot of "Highly Respected" pillars of "The Community" who were (in my opinion) douche-canoes who I wouldn't leave my pet rock in the care of. This is another weird phenomenon I've no handle on. The manner in which a "Community" seems to have a blind acceptance of a person's authority or credibility merely because they are active in various groups. I tend to attribute this to the fact that you never REALLY know a person until you really KNOW that person and people seem to like to think they "KNOW" someone just because they socialize with them a few nights a month.

This is no offense or implied insult toward Lady Pact or Dark Steven. I've no idea if you are douche-canoes masquerading as Pillars of The Community. I tend to think NO, but I'm laboring under the delusion that following your posts over the years grants me insight into you each personally. Since I don't really KNOW you personally - I could be wrong [:D]

ETA: I do this a great deal, post before I've read the whole thread. If my post is redundant or derails from how the thread has evolved I apologize.



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