RE: Is rape about power?

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egern -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:46:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Rape is about bullying...... Nuff said. But what about stranger rape then?

egern -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:48:45 AM)
ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: The connection to military interrogations seems specious at best. Not to me. I think it can be a tool of torture, and breaking down a person.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:50:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I believe it was a disempowering disservice to girls and women to drop it from the curriculum. I agree, but hey, around these parts, the minister of health went on the record saying that rape is almost murder... The vintage misogyny of ascribing such boundless power to the penis, and none to its passive receptacles(!), never ceases to amaze and disgust me. IWYW, — Aswad. So what you are basically saying is that we shouldn't have rape laws, since if a woman is raped, she has a part in it happening? So we should put women in Burkhas, and if they get raped on a date because the guy went to far, do what the cops did in Steubenville and laugh it off? In Steubenville, the girl was stupid, she got fucked up, drunk out of her head, and put herself in a bad position, but arguing her stupidity in any way ameliorated what they did is absolutely tragic... If you want to argue that women can do things to prevent rape, in being smart, I agree. This is a BD/SM board, and what do we tell newbies about safety, about protecting themselves? Why do we have safewords? If you are arguing that women can help prevent rape, I totally agree, I would never argue that one, but once a rape occurs, the fault has to be with the perpetrator. I don't think a guy who does date rape because he thought he had consent is very different then a serial rapist, and in court it is treated very differently, it is why we have judges. But if a girl gets drunk, kind of passes out, and the guy rapes her, the blame is all his, because he had control in that case. The other thing that leaves out is that most men are stronger than the women they rape, and besides using weapons, they have physical strength to overwhelm the girl they are with.... What I object to is the idea that once the crime has happened, that the person who is the victim has anything to answer for legally and I reject outright the idea that somehow men don't have to be totally in control of themselves. If a man doesn't have impulse control and ends up raping a woman, that is her fault, not the fact that maybe she shouldn't have been drinking or doing drugs; she has some culpability I think but not legally. That is like telling me that if a drunk driver hits my car and hurts me because I was driving on New Years Eve when a lot of drunks are out on the roads it is partially my fault, when the drunk has the responsiblity. The reason I object is because that becomes a really slippery slope legally, it is saying 'nod nod wink wink you know how it is, boys will be boys, etc' or the religious fueled nonsense, so prevalent in Islam especially, that women are seductresses and men can't control themselves, so women have to be locked up in burkhas, not allowed to drive, if they go someplace have to be with a male relative and so forth, it assumes that men can't control themselves and women are to blame, and that is horseshit. First of all, it insults men, it assumes that most of them are driven only by their dicks, have no control over it, and that is bullshit, most men out there are in control, at least where it comes to rape, they know the difference and woud never think of doing something like that, they would be horrified (it is interesting to note that one of the groups with the highest rape rates tend to be jocks, and it isn't surprising that this has been traced to a culture of entitlement given them; put it this way, it is rarely in high school the kid with the 2400 SAT and the 4.0 GPA, it is more likely to be a member of the football team, the star athlete, which with the power they are given, not surprising). How do we prevent rape? Throwing the book at those found guilty helps, but I think there is a lot more. Empowering women to protect themselves, teaching them about protecting themselves, self respect, not putting themselves in bad situations is a good idea (It was something learned in my own journey; as a male, I never felt particularly afraid, I assumed a lot; when I was in transition, I learned a lot about fear, about possible threats, of protecting myself), telling girls they have the right to say no, to not be forced. I think we also have to do a lot with boys, to get rid of the silent crap that exists, that when they date someone they don't own them, the person owes them nothing other then treating them with respect, and that as boys/men they have a duty to protect the person they are with, including from themselves. Most of the men I know would be horrified to think they had taken something from the woman they were with (or man, if gay), they were brought up to respect women, and in general, most men accused of rape when you question them, have somehow not learned that, they either have hatred or they grew up in misogynystic surroundings that assumed women were still somehow owned by men, or the like. I think of the kids in Ohio who sat and watched while the girl was raped, boys and girls, and who defended those who did it. That doesn't change the nature of rape, it simply does what you can to prevent it, and that is two different things. I won't stand for any claims that the victim was responsible, if someone goes over that line, for whatever reason they are wrong, totally wrong, this isn't like an auto accident, if you , man or woman, take advantage of someone else against their will, you are totally guilty....the penalty might be different, there are shades of gray (different if someone slipped over the line, versus a Douchbag who roofied a girl), but the guilt is there. I think the power issue is highlighted by statutory rape laws (which are different then other kinds of rape, but still). An adult having sex with an underage child has power over that child simply by being adult, and the law is written that having that power means that the child cannot consent, the power overrides that. While statutory rape is different, one premise is the same, that the perp used their power to do something bad; with a child, the power adults have over children, in adult rape, using whatever power they had (physical force, a weapon, the drunken state of their victim) to have sex without the others consent; power may not have been the motivation in all cases (and I agree saying it is always about power, that that is the motivation, is wrong) but the legal consequences in almost all cases are based on misusing power in doing the rape.

deliriuminabox -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:57:32 AM)
Fast Reply ... Sometimes rape is about a lack of compassion and/or understanding on the part of the rapist. This is why I feel its so important that we not only educate our daughters about how to protect themselves from potentially dangerous situations but also educate our sons about what consent really means. It also needs to be understood that rape isn't always violent. The victim doesn't always get beaten up. In my experience, the man who raped me actually forced me to allow him to hold me against his chest while I cried after he was finished. In his eyes, he was comforting me. He even accused me of being mean to him when I finally pushed away and walked out of the room. He did not understand that what he'd done was wrong.

egern -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:58:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true). It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape. Actually, rape rates are very high in Scandinavia. Norway has the fifth highest rape rate of any country out there, and a substantial increase occured after the introduction of the laws banning the purchase of sexual services, a trend also seen in Sweden (where the law was pioneered). As a sidebar, violence against prostitutes substantially increased, as well, and the number of prostitutes doubled. But you're right that the occurence is higher, relative to population density, in areas where the sexual mores are more repressive, and the opposite is true of areas that are more openminded about sex. IWYW, — Aswad. When you say that rape rates are very high in Scandinavia, what do you compare it to? Where do you get your statistics from? I'd like to see them. It is hard to read the stats in cases of rape, because you do not know how many are reported, and laws on what constitutes rape are different. It is possible that more rapes are reported in Scandinavia than elsewhere, I do not know. Certainly Sweden's rate is sky high, but their laws are extremely strict. Noway is much less than for example UK and USA, and Denmark is quite low.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 9:58:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Got to love the head in the sand comment. Rape is wrong, it cant be justified. Talking about why it happens wont exonerate it. Simly put, it IS all about bullying the victim. I'm not interested in exonerating anything, nor trying to justify anything. I'm trying to understand rape in a manner that's useful in dealing with it, and I'm not certain the 'bullying' perspective fits that bill. IWYW, — Aswad. The problem is your understand of rape seems to be it is always where a man's sexual desire gets out of hand, as in some cases of date rape, and if women just learned to say no better, rape would go away. What you are saying is that rape is about men's sexual desire getting out of hand, and if we want to prevent rape women have to learn to be more forceful, and say no, and this is the ultimate in black and white thinking. I don't argue we can do a lot more to empower women to avoid being raped better, and I think some rape does come from sex getting out of hand, but it is such a narrow argument that it basically is nothing more then the idea, especially esconced in Islam, that rape and such happen because the man gets out of control because the women seduced them, tempted them, it is why Islam has given us the Burkkha and belief systems like Saudi Arabia or honor killings, it is the same thing, that if a rape occurs a man has been 'enflamed', and I won't buy that. A lot of the men who rape do so out of hate or anger at women and also feel empowered in doing so, and studies have shown that. What you are talking about will work in date rape situations and such, but it doesn't cover a wide spectrum, and it is probably a lot more useful to look at most rape as being about anger and hate and power, then lust.

sexyred1 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 10:16:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: FelineRanger Unfortunately, rape really is about power. Very often, it's a warped attempt to regain power that the rapist feels he has lost in another part of his life. I agree and will add that it is often insecurity and anger that drives a person to rape; it is ironic that such a show of power simply masks how powerless the man is who commits such an act. Not to mention that it is also purely sociopathic behavior. Why should this insecurity and anger be aimed at women?? Sociopath behavior: the really scary problem here is that there are so many countries where it is not considered sociopath behavior! You have to ask why insecurity and anger are often aimed at women? Really? I am sure there are many answers: lack of attention from women, self loathing, anger at the world in general, failure in areas of life, mommy issues, daddy issues, etc. Of course not all rapists are insecure, self loathers or failures in life; as it has been pointed out my many, some rapists are perfectly good looking, successful, married, etc. I simply pointed out that there is misogyny at work in many cases and when someone has alot of anger issues, it is often easiest to take it out on a seemingly weaker person, ie. if a rapist is someone who is furious at his boss, he may not do anything about it, but go home and rape his wife, or go out and do it. I am not a psychologist, I am just a thinking person who added my opinion here. I also maintain that rape is really not sexual, it is the expression of power and trying to achieve it, even if momentarily.

egern -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 10:18:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess FR Hmmmm. I'm having trouble with this idea that rapist rape because they lack access to consensual sex. There are plenty of men who rape who are attractive personable guys. Do people on this thread really think that the only men who rape are unattractive, with uninteresting personalities and with no prospects, whose only hope of having sex with another human being is to force them? Really? It is important to get a more nuanced view than that ALL men are doing this or that. Rape is done by various types for various reasons and some of them can be worked with. The 'it is all about power' slogan is not helpful in finding ways to get the statistics down, it is over-simplifying and leaves no way to work with the problem. It is also important to stop the 'all men are potential rapists' slogan. How many men do rape? 1%? 5%? 10%? Even if as high as 10%, it means that 90% do not and are our allies and they should not be demonized or discriminated against, as for example is the case on airlines. We should stand together.

Powergamz1 -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 10:56:59 AM)
Your fabricating those quotes and editing out of words is doing exactly what I predicted... playing an internet troll game of semantics and strawmen at the expense of rape victims. quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 If you don't get that a law enforcement arrest is a prime example of coercive power, then you either aren't equipped to have this discussion, or you are trolling for another pointless internet argument about semantics and strawmen. Oh, I get that, I'm simply saying that it's pointless to say "law enforcement is about power", compared to e.g. "law enforcement is about social order". We don't create a police force for power, we create one from a motive, and power is secondary. Similarly, when police brutality happens, we don't write it off by saying "well, police are all about power, and that's all that needs to be said", but rather delve into the issues leading to the problem and attempt to address them. IWYW, — Aswad.

MiLadyDiane -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 11:19:35 AM)
Sorry, I meant to reply to njlauren.

MiLadyDiane -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 11:24:52 AM)
Hear ! Hear ! You just said it all. Thank you very much, njlauren. Fanned and faved.

Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 11:57:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren The rapist achieves a goal, of humiliating their enemy whom they hate. Surely you jest. quote: In the 1990's in the Serbian wars, serb men were raping Muslim women with the intent of getting them pregnant, it was done to humiliate them, pure and simple. Are you now trying to analyze war rape, assault rape, spousal rape, date rape and every other form of rape as a single entity? quote: Rapists don't need to have empathy, far from it, rape is a weapon of humiliation against someone else, or can be. How do you get from "humiliation" to "no empathy"? quote: The problem with Occams razor is it often is filtered through biases i.e rape involves sexual penetration, therefore rape is about sexual desire and lust. No, the problem with Occam's Razor is that it's misunderstood and misapplied. True, assumptions can give a mistaken impression that the proposed configuration is the densest possible, when in fact the assumptions contain unintended or 'hidden' complexities that make the configuration less dense, but in this case, you seem to be introducing assumptions about Jeff's premises that weren't present in them. IWYW, — Aswad.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 2:52:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren I don't think rape rates have anything to do with whether prostitution is legal (that implies that rapists simply need to get their rocks off, they are horny, and that isn't true). It is often cited that societies that have lower rape rates tend to be more open minded about sex (for example, scandinavian countries) and that rape is often highest in sexually repressed societies, like Muslim countries, but that is a false correlation, the reason rape is lower in scandinavian countries is because in their society they have made a big attempt at equality for women and erasing misogyny, whereas traditionalist societies like the Muslim world (talking the shitholes like Saudi and Iran and Iraq) or even in certain quarters of the bible belt, women are considered inferior and that helps set the stage for rape. Actually, rape rates are very high in Scandinavia. Norway has the fifth highest rape rate of any country out there, and a substantial increase occured after the introduction of the laws banning the purchase of sexual services, a trend also seen in Sweden (where the law was pioneered). As a sidebar, violence against prostitutes substantially increased, as well, and the number of prostitutes doubled. But you're right that the occurence is higher, relative to population density, in areas where the sexual mores are more repressive, and the opposite is true of areas that are more openminded about sex. IWYW, — Aswad. When you say that rape rates are very high in Scandinavia, what do you compare it to? Where do you get your statistics from? I'd like to see them. It is hard to read the stats in cases of rape, because you do not know how many are reported, and laws on what constitutes rape are different. It is possible that more rapes are reported in Scandinavia than elsewhere, I do not know. Certainly Sweden's rate is sky high, but their laws are extremely strict. Noway is much less than for example UK and USA, and Denmark is quite low. Thank you and it is why you have to be careful of sources. If you looked at officially reported rape rates, Sweden would seem to be high, but it is because the rapes often get reported. India shows low reporting of rapes, but that is because their system is so fucked up that victims are considered the bad person and their law enforcement does everything it can to make sure that the victim doesn't report it (recently, a 5 year old was raped, and the cop tried to pay the parent off with some trivial bribe not to report it). Serious studies of rape rates also do estimates, for example, in the US, the actual rape rate is probably much higher than the reported one, and places that may look low aren't.

thompsonx -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 3:04:06 PM)
quote: Thank you and it is why you have to be careful of sources. If you looked at officially reported rape rates, Sweden would seem to be high, but it is because the rapes often get reported. What constitutes rape in sweden is different than what many think. In another thread re: the wiki leaks guy who was facing rape charges steming from consensual sex. I forget the exact nuance of the charge that made it seem outside the perview what we in the u.s. think of as rape. If this interest you it might be worth your time to take a look. It might put a different light on the rape stats out of sweden .

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 3:06:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren The rapist achieves a goal, of humiliating their enemy whom they hate. Surely you jest. quote: In the 1990's in the Serbian wars, serb men were raping Muslim women with the intent of getting them pregnant, it was done to humiliate them, pure and simple. Are you now trying to analyze war rape, assault rape, spousal rape, date rape and every other form of rape as a single entity? quote: Rapists don't need to have empathy, far from it, rape is a weapon of humiliation against someone else, or can be. How do you get from "humiliation" to "no empathy"? quote: The problem with Occams razor is it often is filtered through biases i.e rape involves sexual penetration, therefore rape is about sexual desire and lust. No, the problem with Occam's Razor is that it's misunderstood and misapplied. True, assumptions can give a mistaken impression that the proposed configuration is the densest possible, when in fact the assumptions contain unintended or 'hidden' complexities that make the configuration less dense, but in this case, you seem to be introducing assumptions about Jeff's premises that weren't present in them. IWYW, — Aswad. There are different types of rape, I used the Serbs as an example of where it wasn't about lust, but about using rape as a weapon, to demoralize an enemy or get revenge. When someone rapes a women because they are angry about something, feeling powerless, whatever, they are using sex to take it out on women they have a grudge for. As far as humiliation and no empathy, that should be a no brainer. Empathy means you can feel what someone else is feeling, and understand the pain, and if someone has empathy, humiliating someone, especially via rape, means they cannot feel what they are doing to the person, they have stopped empathizing with them as a human being. To use an analogy, those responsible for planning and carrying out the holocaust felt no empathy for the people they were hurting, which allowed them to do what they did, those raping someone to humiliate them likewise couldn't do what they were doing if they had empathy at all. The problem with occams razor as you are applying it is in the fundamental idea that all rape is about a man going to far, not intending to cause harm, no impulse control, and that is what is false, because while some rapes do occur 'accidentally', someone pushes a boundary maybe not intending to, a lot of it is done in anger and retribution, rage, or as I pointed out, feeling no empathy. The fact that the attacker is known to the victim is not really a good statistic, because that doesn't show motive. The mutants in Ohio, who I wish could be locked up forever and be branded as a sex crimes perpetrator as an adult (they cannot be, since they were tried as juveniles, which I don't understand), knew the girl and she knew them, which is often the setup for a rape, the victim trusts the person because they know them, and the person acts. It is telling in Ohio that the perps didn't have sex with her, they sexually violated her, which is not impulse control, it was 'let's fuck up the slut" kind of mentality. The real problem with claiming rapes are men going out of control with lust is it puts the onus on the victim, it directly implies that if a man goes nuts, the woman must have led him on or tantalized him puke, when the reality is, a lot of rape is because the guy who does it has no respect for woman, thinks he has the right to 'take them', or because he has rage and anger against women as well as disdain. By looking at it from the vantage of power, it puts the onus where it should be, on the rapist, because once someone says no or never gave consent, it is rape. A judge can take into account, for example, a guy on a date who went too far, didn't hear the 'no', whatever, and they would be sentenced less harshly then the guy who slipped a girl a roofie and had sex with her, or the guy who pulled a knife. There are different types of rape, but in the end, it is someone who for some reason thought they were jusified in doing what they did, had the right, had the power to do it and did it, pure and simple. Some cases are probably impulse control, but in that case the perp felt like it was okay to take what he wanted, and had the power to do it. I have never said all rape was about power (and also keep in mind when that was written, things like date rape were not even in the lexicon, date rape is an artifact of the past 30 years, it has been added to the definition, as marital rape was).

Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 3:31:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren So what you are basically saying is that we shouldn't have rape laws, since if a woman is raped, she has a part in it happening? Uhm. No. I've no idea how you got to that conclusion. quote: So we should put women in Burkhas, and if they get raped on a date because the guy went to far, do what the cops did in Steubenville and laugh it off? Uhm. No. See above. quote: In Steubenville, the girl was stupid, she got fucked up, drunk out of her head, and put herself in a bad position, but arguing her stupidity in any way ameliorated what they did is absolutely tragic... Agreed. Fortunately, I didn't argue that. quote: If you want to argue that women can do things to prevent rape, in being smart, I agree. Good we can agree on that. quote: [...] but once a rape occurs, the fault has to be with the perpetrator. Agreed. Not sure why you seem to get the opposite impression. quote: What I object to is the idea that once the crime has happened, that the person who is the victim has anything to answer for legally and I reject outright the idea that somehow men don't have to be totally in control of themselves. That would indeed be objectionable. quote: That is like telling me that if a drunk driver hits my car and hurts me because I was driving on New Years Eve when a lot of drunks are out on the roads it is partially my fault, when the drunk has the responsiblity. Risk management choices are unrelated to fault. Fault lies with the DUIer, for choosing to DUI. You can make choices to limit the risk to yourself, but they're an externally imposed burden from people that DUI, so it's not "on you" to account for it, though you may stand to gain by being careful. Not sure why anyone would infer a partial fault there. quote: How do we prevent rape? That's the question I was trying to answer, by sharing experiences about what actually helps here from field trials. quote: Empowering women to protect themselves, teaching them about protecting themselves, self respect, not putting themselves in bad situations is a good idea [...], telling girls they have the right to say no, to not be forced. This is what I said was cut from the curriculum here, because it was felt to place responsibility on women. I objected to it being cut, and I'm not sure why you mind me being upset about it being cut. quote: Most of the men I know would be horrified to think they had taken something from the woman they were with (or man, if gay), they were brought up to respect women, and in general, most men accused of rape when you question them, have somehow not learned that, they either have hatred or they grew up in misogynystic surroundings that assumed women were still somehow owned by men, or the like. We've solved some of that. The rest proved to be influencable through education. quote: I think the power issue is highlighted by statutory rape laws (which are different then other kinds of rape, but still). We'll have to discuss statutory rape laws elsewhere. That's a different entity altogether. quote: While statutory rape is different, one premise is the same, that the perp used their power to do something bad That premise is the same for every crime: someone had the ability to do something (i.e. power), and (ab)used it. I'm not sure how it's particularly meaningful to analyse it in those terms. IWYW, — Aswad.

littlewonder -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 3:33:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stephINca I think it entirely depends on the type of rape. A. Stranger Rape at random. Probably all about power. B. "Blatent Date Rape" Power possibly to because he didn't get what he wanted. C. "Date Rape" A total lack of communication that leaves the woman to feel as if she said no enough but the male didn't get it and just continued. Not to get the pity card. I have had 2 of the above senarios and felt completely different about each. One you can feel the rage and hate. One you are just totally confused about what happened. D. Drugged rape. Horny guy who can't get sex from anyone or because she rejected him. Addendum to A. Also for reasons of revenge, not getting something they want, again, horny, desperate man, psychopath

CarpeComa -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 3:56:22 PM)
FR A few things; 1: When any discussion of rape comes up, a lot of people in their mind think 'Violent Stranger Rape', which as already pointed out, is the vast minority of cases. Thus, any discussion that focuses on this extreme situation is going to be myopic. It's a lot of effort and attention focused on a rare situation. 2: A lot of the rape statistics out there (especially the ever popular 1 in X women) are collected by people who benefit from inflating the numbers as much as they can. Every woman they can manage to terrify is more influence for them. The survey questions are usually not “Have you been raped?”, but have you been in x, y, or z situation? (which could be construed as rape) The vast majority of these ‘victims’ who report having been in those situations do not see themselves as having been raped (usually about 75%).The number of women who will self-report as having been raped, even anonymously, is much smaller than the popular statistics will have you believe. The self reported rate tends to hover around 5% per the Koss and Kilpatrick studies, the same studies that yielded the oft quoted 1 in 4 and 1 in 8 figures. Studies which suggest that rape occurrence is low get little visibility. More than rape culture, this is evidence of the fear culture in the U.S. A culture where every negative thing that can happen gets blown well out of proportion due to select groups benefiting from the public's fear. No one pays attention to the message that all, if not good, is not shockingly bad. Fear sells more than hope. If it bleeds, it leads. 3: Rape may or may not be about power. Just as there is quite a spectrum of rape as a crime, there is going to be quite a spectrum of motivation. Not everyone kills for the same reason, steals for the same reason, or commits any other crime for the same reason. To allow one’s self to become hyper focused on one possible cause will lead to a distorted understanding of the situation and solutions which are partially effectual at best. I find it extremely telling the degree to which people repeat what they hear without consideration that we still see the 'rape is not about sex, it is about power' line on a board dedicated to people who make the connection between sex and power. If A = B and B = C, then A = C. This of course is not to say that people shouldn't take reasonable measures. Just that, by and large, people are pretty safe from violence from others.

njlauren -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 4:00:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: egern quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess FR Hmmmm. I'm having trouble with this idea that rapist rape because they lack access to consensual sex. There are plenty of men who rape who are attractive personable guys. Do people on this thread really think that the only men who rape are unattractive, with uninteresting personalities and with no prospects, whose only hope of having sex with another human being is to force them? Really? It is important to get a more nuanced view than that ALL men are doing this or that. Rape is done by various types for various reasons and some of them can be worked with. The 'it is all about power' slogan is not helpful in finding ways to get the statistics down, it is over-simplifying and leaves no way to work with the problem. It is also important to stop the 'all men are potential rapists' slogan. How many men do rape? 1%? 5%? 10%? Even if as high as 10%, it means that 90% do not and are our allies and they should not be demonized or discriminated against, as for example is the case on airlines. We should stand together. I agree it is a small percentage of men, though the numbers indicate it may not be as small as they think. Look at the percentage of women, based on stats, who can be projected to be raped in their lifetime, and it is sobering. It isn't useful to say all men are rapists (like that fucktard Andrea Dworkin tried to argue, thankfully RIP) or to argue that all men have the potential to rape,because it isn't true, but it is also true that men you wouldn't think of can do it. I don't think the rape being about power is particularly useful, other than to say that rape is not really about sex, that by correlating it with sex it a)deflects from the real issues and b)ends up in no small part blaming the victim and absolving the perp. For example, we legally charge an adult for having sex with an underage minor; he/she can say the victim was willing, that they wanted to do it, but adults are expected to understand that sex with a minor is harmful, that the minor can't really consent, and walk away, a young girl could be wearing a mini with CFM's (come fuck me shoes), and so forth, and it doesn't matter. Or as my therapist explained it, if we ever found ourselves in a position where there was a breach of boundaries with the patient/therapist relationship, it was her duty to walk away or to keep that breach from happening, because therapists are in that kind of position. I think we have to recognize the causes of rape, and also realize that ultimately the rapist chose to do something to the victim they shouldn't have, that they used whatever was at hand to force themselves on the victim, or took advantage, and that the key to this is figuring out why they felt they could do that and change the behavior. The old "boys will be boys' attitude about sex is one of those, the attitudes that somehow boys are supposed to have sex with whom they want, the idea that a girl that is stupid and drinks and puts herself in a compromising position isn't a young woman to protect and respect, but rather a slut or ho to be used, all of those have to be fought. And yes, young women have to be taught to protect themselves, to know that sex is never a payment for anything, it is never 'owed' or anything close to it, and how to protect themselves. Think about it, we do that with pedophiles, we now spend a lot of time teaching young kids about appropriate and inappropriate touching, we teach them not to trust strangers or all adults and so forth, so that makes sense. Demonizing men isn't the answer, as too many crazies in the feminist movement did, claiming all men are rape in potential, but understanding the cultural and other attitudes that lend men to think they can rape and get away with it is important.

Aswad -> RE: Is rape about power? (5/19/2013 4:05:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren The problem with claiming it is lust and impulse control alone (besides the obvious, it isn't true), is it doesn't ask why they feel they have the right to do as they do, and it all ties in. Here's the first mistaken premise in your argument: I never said it's lust and impulse control alone. I have absolutely asked why they feel they have the right to do as they do, and have pointed out that teaching teenage boys what they do/not have the right to has proven to be one of the most effective strategies up here. Nothing about it appears to have anything to do with hate or humiliation, in the common case here. Typically, the guys in question feel horrible when they realize what they have done to the other person, which indicates a massive potential for improving this problem by education up front. quote: Let's assume it is lust, that it is sexual desire run amok, as you say, then let me take you from A to B. A)Man is horny, hasn't had sex, has been rejected, whatever (blue balls) B)Woman comes along, he decides he wants her, takes her and forces her to have sex, rapes her. C)Woman presses rape charges. Okay, all said and good. 40 years ago, woman did that, and guess what happens? You got it, defense lawyer starts in "So, why were you wearing that dress with heels and a low cut top? You weren't out to find some guy? Why did you go by that particular place, when you knew it was deserted? How sexually active are you?"..and so forth, this was common, in some places still might be. I've never seen a rape trial where the circumstances were such that a majority of jurors (from around here) would claim that the circumstances were such that they would've acted the way the perpetrator did, which is the standard used for provocation here in violent crime trials (e.g. if you come upon someone that's just beaten your kid senseless, you can claim that was sufficient provocation to ameliorate assaulting the person that beat your kid, and it'll usually stand if the response was reasonably porportional, because the average juror would've done the same in that situation). I've seen it once in a statutory rape trial, but that was a truly exceptional case that was thrown out on jury nullification for unrelated reasons. Really, if that strategy works, then it's time to educate the community in which it works. quote: I don't think it is all about power, I don't think it is the evil man exerting his will and chuckling over it, I think that it is more in the assumption of power (as with marital rape), or with anger and rage at women, or seeing them as inferior or less than human (steubenville, the guy who grabs the girl on the street and rapes her). Jocks see everyone, except other jocks, as less than human. Fix that problem. quote: [...] the power plays out in "I can do this, I am bigger/stronger" Again, that's the case for every crime, and it's also the case for every time someone does a good deed, or any other human endeavour. quote: what you call lack of impulse control is in reality assuming you have the right to use the power you have to force the other person. That's certainly often the case for certain kinds of rape. Which brings us back to education again. IWYW, — Aswad.

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