quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As for your "five day work week." That would completely close places down on the weekends. Or we would face discrimination suits from retail workers, restaurant/bar employees, grocery store employees, etc.

Not quite so easy to fix is it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
My reasoning if fallacious, because it's not based on logical patterns at all. It's based on a total lack of any evidence whatsoever, and in lieu of that evidence, I put a label on it that implies a certain concept that is at all not proven by the lack of evidence.

However...

I'm not trying to proof the existence of God, to you, to me, or to anybody else. What I'm doing is labeling an experience I had.

In order to label something, without claiming that the label is factually accurate because I so labeled it, I don't need a logical argument to back it up.
Claiming I do would be like claiming I need a logical argument to name a painting I made the name I feel it deserves. There is no logic, because the subject I'm dealing with (the labeling of a feeling) isn't a logical argument.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Now, if I would pose that my experience proved to myself that God exists as a definitive fact, then absolutely, I would follow your reasoning that because of the fallacious logic that statement would be problematic.
But I don't do that. I don't consider my experience proof of anything at all. I just observe that I felt a certain way, and that feeling like that changed me in such a way that I afterwards gained the completely irrational, illogical, unprovable feeling of "faith". I then label that experience, without being too concerned about the accuracy of the label, because all my attempts at defining an accurate label for it have failed, and I therefore labeled it merely the most appropriate label at my disposal.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

Religious theists in America, and especially Christians, are simply going to have to come to terms with the fact that their religion may use "peace" and "love" a lot in its theological rhetoric, but this rhetoric doesn't always translate into real behavior. Some people are simply too different to love and treat as full equals. Atheists fall into this category for a large number of religious believers and Christians in America."

Lets just take this and other religious threads on collarme... Who receives the hate and the contempt... the religious or the atheists.

When I walk down the street and pass strangers, which are always the majority, I have no idea their religious affiliation or lack of one... On top of that I don't care. The only people who have problems over their religion or lack of it are those that open their dumb asses mouths to tell everyone.

On these boards I see few people who go around preaching a religion ...do you see anyone doing that ? But I sure as hell see many who just cannot help themselves to proclaim their atheism and their contempt for those that believe in God and they attack on every thread... So bottom line you have things backwards.

Butch

Well errmmm . . . it is a Politics and RELIGION board after all, isn't it? So, now we are to stfu even on here? That is carrying oppression a step too far doncha think, Butch? Unbelievable. Imagine! People open their dumb asses mouth about their religion or lack of it on a Board dedicated to Religion. Who woulda thunk it?

If you can't discuss a subject without the hate and contempt then maybe you should.

Please point out instances of hate and contempt I have shown towards religion or religious people. Otherwise, please refrain from poster character assassination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I don't think that particular reporter's comment or others like it make it a civil rights issue, but that is simply my opinion. If I recall, there were many who didn't want to vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Many wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon. There have also been issues with voting for an unmarried president, Regan for being divorced, Clinton because he didn't serve in the military (not to mention the infamous "I didn't inhale" incident) People were pretty vocal about all of those things. Still, none of them were civil rights issues.

Kennedy and Romney were civil rights issues. That a signifcant percentage of Americans would not vote for someone due to their faith denies that faith group their right to fully participate in the political process. Just try thinking about whether it is a civil rights issue that some people wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
I don't think that particular reporter's comment or others like it make it a civil rights issue, but that is simply my opinion. If I recall, there were many who didn't want to vote for Kennedy because he was Catholic. Many wouldn't vote for Romney because he was a Mormon. There have also been issues with voting for an unmarried president, Regan for being divorced, Clinton because he didn't serve in the military (not to mention the infamous "I didn't inhale" incident) People were pretty vocal about all of those things. Still, none of them were civil rights issues.

Kennedy and Romney were civil rights issues. That a signifcant percentage of Americans would not vote for someone due to their faith denies that faith group their right to fully participate in the political process. Just try thinking about whether it is a civil rights issue that some people wouldn't vote for Obama because he is black.

what would you suggest? Asking people the reasoning behind their votes and if it isn't good enough we tear up the ballet?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Being a missionary is a tough job. But somebody has to lead the benighted toward the light, eh?

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

No they aren't meddling or praying for what *they* believe needs fixing. They are indeed "invoking their deity," but the prayers are asking their deity to provide you with the strength you need to get through the rough patch, or that you find the answers you seek/need.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

You had an *out of the blue* spiritual experience. From what I gather, it has provided you with clarity and strength to do what you needed to do. What if you were to find out that perhaps you received that experience because people had prayed for you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

It sure looks like you're doing more then coming up with a funny sounding pronunciation of I don't know. For instance this one "label" has effected at least one other concept in your worldview i.e. that you've changed from a atheist to a pantheist. Doesn't that make your "label" some sort of truth claim about the nature of reality?

quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

You have an accurate label at your disposal "I don't know". When you talk about God literally speaking to you, unless you can describe his accent you aren't using accurate labels. I think you get that, I think we're on the same page there, where I expect we part company is that I'm of the opinion that answering one unknown with another unknown doesn't actually explain anything. There just isn't any explanatory power there.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

When you pray for somebody, you are not wishing somebody TO a person. Instead, you're invoking a deity to interfere with that person's life on your behalf. You are MEDDLING. You're not just merely offering your best. You are stating that you are going to request your God to fix what YOU think needs fixing.

I think you're pushing this one too far. Your argument depends upon the God to whom the person is praying (1) actually existing, (2) being otherwise content to leave you alone were it not for that pesky petitionary prayer, (3) being bound now to act according to the prayer's specifics, and (4) a mind-reading claim to knowledge of said specifics.

K.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

When you pray for somebody, you are not wishing somebody TO a person. Instead, you're invoking a deity to interfere with that person's life on your behalf. You are MEDDLING. You're not just merely offering your best. You are stating that you are going to request your God to fix what YOU think needs fixing.

I think you're pushing this one too far. Your argument depends upon the God to whom the person is praying (1) actually existing, (2) being otherwise content to leave you alone were it not for that pesky petitionary prayer, (3) being bound now to act according to the prayer's specifics, and (4) a mind-reading claim to knowledge of said specifics.

K.

If it's no big deal, then why am I being rude when I ask somebody "please don't pray for me"?

Why am I being rude when asking a person not to do something on my behalf, but they are not being rude when they state that they will on my behalf against my expressed wishes?

If it's not big deal to be prayed for, it shouldn't be a big deal to ask not to be prayed for.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I think you do have a point, I think a person should be entitled to ask not to be prayed for, and provided that they do it in a sensitive way entitled not to be called rude for doing so.

That said, I would find it hard to regard someone going ahead and praying for me to be rude, even if I've asked them not to. It would seem a little churlish to be irritated by someone's genuine desire to see good happen to me.

It does, rather, depend on what it is they're praying for.

If they're praying to god to enlighten me to the "truth" that homosexuality is evil and women are property then - they can fuck right off, but on the whole if I ever become aware that someone of faith is praying for me, it gives me quite a boost.

Which is interesting of course, because that boost might be the one thing that gets me over whatever it is.

So, much as my atheist teeth might grind, prayer can work...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I think you're pushing this one too far. Your argument depends upon the God to whom the person is praying (1) actually existing, (2) being otherwise content to leave you alone were it not for that pesky petitionary prayer, (3) being bound now to act according to the prayer's specifics, and (4) a mind-reading claim to knowledge of said specifics.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Since Civil Rights are set forth in a legal document, yes I do.

But why don't you provide me with YOUR definition of what it is, so I can know what you are actually trying to say?

My mind reading skills don't work over the internet, and frankly, I have never liked guessing games.

Civil rights are that set of things without which you cannot fully participate in the society in which you live. It is a civil right for a woman not to be subject to the "glass ceiling" and it is a civil right that an atheist not have to hide his lack of faith to get and keep a job or to run for political office.

Those two things are vastly different. Why? Because atheists aren't prevented from running and they sure aren't losing their jobs for being atheist.

If they run and lose an election, while some may not have voted for them because they had a problem with their beliefs, that could have happened whatever their belief system.

For the third and final time, if they were not permitted to run, that would be a civil rights issue. Because they can't garner the votes to win is not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
Bergen County is the only county in NJ that still has restrictive Blue Laws. In the rest of the country, it is basically limited to alcohol and car sales, and some stores not being able to open before noon.