Yes, even Atheists... (Full Version)

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Kirata -> Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 4:53:51 PM)


The Pope recently said something that has had people talking about the new direction of the Catholic church and Catholic theology under this new prelate. The transcript is at the Vatican Radio website. This is the relevant excerpt:

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there. ~Source

This strikes me as an interesting approach to the question of whether Atheists can be good "without God". Simply put, the Pope is saying that nobody is "without God" whether or not they believe. I suppose an Atheist might quibble with that premise, but it seems a rather neat theological solution, and a welcome acknowledgment that belief in God is not necessary to do good or to be good.

K.



Politesub53 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:01:24 PM)

Simply put the Pope can show his views up his backside. Let me know who empowered him to tell people who dont believe in God that we are still his children.

Its akin to the Aga Khan telling you you are all children of his God, that will go down well in the States.



Tkman117 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:05:33 PM)

The gist of the message is, do good things in life and god will reward you. Before I became an agnostic this is the opinion I always held, no matter the belief system of others. It doesn't make sense that if someone such as hitler, who was a christian, would be favoured in heaven over someone who was an atheist who lived a happy, kind life free of greed or hate. Yet it's a position many christians take, and it makes no sense why an all powerful being would be so petty as to care whether or not people believed in him/her over the actions and intentions committed by said people. Judge people by what they do in life, not by what they believe, a god who thought any different is one not worthy of my or any sane person's devotion or love.



Kirata -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:10:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Let me know who empowered him to tell people who dont believe in God that we are still his children.

The detail your little rant overlooks is that he wasn't talking to Atheists.

K.







Politesub53 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:23:41 PM)

Way to overlook what I said.

Look on it as an atheist quibble.



dcnovice -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:33:51 PM)

FR

37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.’ --Matthew 25: 37-40, NRSV

The idea of folks' being good without religiosity is not new. Nor, at least to me, is the notion that non-Christians can be "saved" (whatever that means).

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled by why the pope's words have garnered so much attention.



Kirata -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:38:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Way to overlook what I said.

I quoted the part of what you said that my comment addressed, so now you're up to two misrepresentations.

K.



Politesub53 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:47:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Way to overlook what I said.

I quoted the part of what you said that my comment addressed, so now you're up to two misrepresentations.

K.


Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class!

Let me know when you catch up. [8|]



Kaliko -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 5:48:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

To be honest, I'm a bit puzzled by why the pope's words have garnered so much attention.



When I went to Catholic school, we were taught that anyone who didn't believe in God (in the Christian sense) would not be going to heaven.

This is a wide departure. I'm no longer Catholic, so maybe things have changed already, but seeing as I don't follow the religion anymore, this is definitely the first I'm hearing that one can simply be a good person in order to gain eternal salvation.



dcnovice -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:01:06 PM)

quote:

When I went to Catholic school, we were taught that anyone who didn't believe in God (in the Christian sense) would not be going to heaven.

Interesting. I attended Catholic schools from first grade through college (including four years at a preparatory seminary during high school), and my experience was quite different. We learned that only God could decide who was saved and that God's embrace included anyone living a life of conscience.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:05:07 PM)

You learned that people who worshipped other gods, graven images, etc. were going to be in heaven as long as they were nice people otherwise?
Or was there a 'No True Scotsman' trick meaning to 'living a life of conscience'?


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

When I went to Catholic school, we were taught that anyone who didn't believe in God (in the Christian sense) would not be going to heaven.

Interesting. I attended Catholic schools from first grade through college (including four years at a preparatory seminary during high school), and my experience was quite different. We learned that only God could decide who was saved and that God's embrace included anyone living a life of conscience.




DomKen -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:08:52 PM)

As an atheist I apprciate the sentiment behind the pope's statement even though I have no delusions there is an afterlife. Doing good in life is enough for me and hopefully will one day be good enough for all.



Kaliko -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:09:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

When I went to Catholic school, we were taught that anyone who didn't believe in God (in the Christian sense) would not be going to heaven.

Interesting. I attended Catholic schools from first grade through college (including four years at a preparatory seminary during high school), and my experience was quite different. We learned that only God could decide who was saved and that God's embrace included anyone living a life of conscience.



Oh, no. (I wish.) We were taught that the only exceptions to the rule were those that had never heard of Christianity. But if one was aware of Christianity, but didn't follow, one was headed to hell.



dcnovice -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:11:28 PM)

quote:

You learned that people who worshipped other gods, graven images, etc. were going to be in heaven as long as they were nice people otherwise?

Yes.



Owner59 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:24:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


The Pope recently said something that has had people talking about the new direction of the Catholic church and Catholic theology under this new prelate. The transcript is at the Vatican Radio website. This is the relevant excerpt:

The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there. ~Source

This strikes me as an interesting approach to the question of whether Atheists can be good "without God". Simply put, the Pope is saying that nobody is "without God" whether or not they believe. I suppose an Atheist might quibble with that premise, but it seems a rather neat theological solution, and a welcome acknowledgment that belief in God is not necessary to do good or to be good.

K.




I like this guy and I`m Protestant.....I like this guy and I`m Protestant.....[:D]



Oh and I do love how he`s piss`n off the fundies........even use`n the "L" word for him....



Owner59 -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:30:55 PM)

Stephen Colbert`s take was to be angry that all the good faith and time he put in as alter boy,etc......meant nothing now that the Pope said good deeds meant more as far and get`n into heaven


http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/thu-may-23-2013-christopher-chivers 2nd segment.



Kirata -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:31:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As an atheist I apprciate the sentiment behind the pope's statement even though I have no delusions there is an afterlife. Doing good in life is enough for me and hopefully will one day be good enough for all.

Exactly. Of course Atheists don't believe in God, but he's not talking to Atheists. He's talking to believers, and directly addressing the divisive notion that you can't be good without a belief in God in a way that undercuts that whole crock of shit. I count it a step forward, and for the Catholic church a big one, even if certain professional victims feel compelled to find something to whine about.

K.




FrostedFlake -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:33:05 PM)

Hang on. Did all the folks lying in their graves waiting for Christ to return (because they hadn't gotten the Word) suddenly get a call saying there had been a fabulous cock-up and they were all invited to the big dance after all? Come one, come all, come just as you are?

Or did I simply sleep through most of my 'religious training' at Saint Johns' Catholic Church in Seattle??? (as in, not in Tinytown, Bible Belt, USA GodDAMNit!)

And what's all this bullshit about Papal Infallibility? Sorry. Make that horseshit.

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

How many times has it been said; "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and Thou shalt be Saved"?*

And now that isn't "The Truth" anymore?

Isn't this really just the latest in a long series of signs from above pointing out the Catholic Church is soon to evaporate like the remnants of a childish dream?

*While we are here, let us all briefly contemplate just WHO it is we need Jesus Christ to save us from. Yep. Your friend and mine; GOD.



Kirata -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:39:40 PM)


That's cute, but here's the way it goes:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Let me know who empowered him to tell people who dont believe in God that we are still his children.

The detail your little rant overlooks is that he wasn't talking to Atheists.

Let me know when you're ready to stop misrepresenting shit just so you can enjoy a little snit.

K.



MrRodgers -> RE: Yes, even Atheists... (5/25/2013 6:46:15 PM)

I am sure the Bhuddists do not agree. They believed that man had the brains to live totally in concert with the 10 commandments...without even realizing it. Basically, man could live without being an all around slut and a whore. Ok, ok...a whore if they could be.

They believe as I do. Man creates gods to do his bidding and thus...to his liking.



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