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The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 4:46:38 PM

Charles6682

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I have always been a history buff.The past helps explains the present.I was watching the Bettie Page movie(HBO version) last night.I have read bits and pieces of BDSM history in the past but never really truly understood the full history of BDSM.That Bettie Page movie was very interesting.

I am especially interested in the history of Fem-Dom and male subs.I imagine it would have been very hard to be a male submissive back in the days.The mentality was very different.But I have read some books and searching the internet.Clearly Fem-Dom has been around for a very long time,even if it wasn't called that back then.Thersea Berkley comes to mind.Some could say she was the first known Mistress back then.I am just fascinated with the history and culture of Fem-Domme and BDSM.

Are there any good books or websites that gives a good in depth detail about the history of BDSM?Thank You.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 6:49:09 PM

NiceButMeanGirl

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If you're on Fetlife, they have a group called A DOCUMENTED HISTORY OF THE LIFESTYLE 1945-95. It's kind of general, but you might be able to find something out in that group.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 7:43:07 PM

MasterCaneman

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We could always ask Resident Sadist, my guess is he had something to do with it.

. Seriously, D/s has probably been around since we figured out we were more than the animals that were trying to eat us. I have always considered it an expression of the fact that we are, essentially, pack animals, and in a pack, there are always Alphas and everybody else. I like to think I'm more than the "everybody else" category...

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 7:54:59 PM

Charles6682

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Thank you NiceButMeanGirl.for that link.Excellent information there.

As for this way of life being around since the very beginning,I believe in that.These natural "urges" didn't just start yesterday.I am also interested in how other countries and cultures express themselves.I do know there are literally people from all over the world who are into this.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 8:28:09 PM

Charles6682

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From: Saint Pete,FL
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Theres even a link on that Fetlife group to a "Fem-Dom" style church.I didn't know there was such a thing.Alittle extreme for me but interesting.Learn something new everyday.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 9:22:18 PM

LizDeluxe

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I have always been a history buff. The past helps explains the present. I was watching the Bettie Page movie(HBO version) last night. I have read bits and pieces of BDSM history in the past but never really truly understood the full history of BDSM. That Bettie Page movie was very interesting.

While Bettie Page is iconic for her work in Irving Klaw's fetish pinup photography she was actually just a working girl trying to make ends meet. Modeling paid much better than her secretary gig. She actually wasn't involved in BDSM at all off camera.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 9:32:52 PM

Charles6682

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Very true.Bettie Page herself was just a model.Whether intentional or not though,her work did become iconic,thus why she is so famous.Either way,there was the U.S. Senate hearing which was about BDSM material.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 9:33:41 PM

MasterCaneman

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I hate to say it, but this thread just gave me an idea for a book.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 9:34:50 PM

MalcolmNathaniel

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As I recall, there was a Greek sect that had priestesses beating young men with laurel branches.

No citation: It could have been in "Different Loving" or a completely different book. I can't remember.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 9:43:49 PM

Charles6682

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Is the story of an "Amazon" Female Led society true? Or is that just the imagination of male subs fantasies gone extreme?

< Message edited by Charles6682 -- 5/26/2013 9:45:17 PM >

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/26/2013 11:30:09 PM

Extravagasm

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quote:

Charles6689: As for this way of life being around since the very beginning,I believe in that. These natural "urges" didn't just start yesterday. I am also interested in how other countries and cultures express themselves. I do know there are literally people from all over the world who are into this.

More generally, centuries of subjects of Empires willing to give their all for the Motherland is archetypal symbolism of this.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 5:41:44 AM

SomethingCatchy

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The dirty word 'alpha' put aside human beings are social creatures that work best in small groups with a central leader figure and his or her 'back up' leaders. Manager and co-managers.
In all the social animals when they congregate in a herd or pack there's more than one manager and they all work together to help the entire group out. Horses have a lead mare who decides one day she's tired of eating this grass and wants to go eat some over 'there'. The herd follows because of instinct but many times other mares will decide that's not a good place to go and you'll see large fluctuations of herd movement.
Wolves have a mother and father who live with their offspring in a large family unit. Clearly mother and father control what their sons and daughters do. If the offspring don't like it they're welcome to leave.
Elephants have a matriarch who is the oldest female living with her sisters, aunts, and offspring of such. She guides but she doesn't dominate. She suggests but she doesn't lay down the law. Because of the bond the girls have with each other, for the most part they all do what the matriarch says to do because ... well she's the oldest and smartest and has been doing it for longer. Path of least resistance.

Then you've got humans who think they need to dominate everyone in order to live on top, but what it really boils down to is animals who behave aggressively in order to control resources are literally insecure and have no idea what their place really is. Within real human 'packs' there is a mother and father figure and the rest are their 'children' who go along with things because that's our instinct. The parental figures don't have anything to do with gender but they do play very specific roles. If one of the 'children' doesn't like what mom and pop have to say then they're welcome to leave and form their own human 'pack'.
A dominant female is playing out the role of parent within her family. So is a dominant male. The vast majority of humans on the earth are somewhere in between 'dominant' and 'submissive' personality so they'd work very well within a pack with respected parental figures. Submissive personalities are natures peace keepers. They have an important role to play within the family unit.

All of that said yes. Dominance and submission has been around since the beginning of time. It's uses are obvious, and in today's Western culture of 'I don't need nobody no how' it's usefulness is within very specific relationships we form with people we chose because of want instead of need. The base animal nature needs to form bonds to stay alive.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 7:37:38 AM

MasterCaneman

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While completely ignoring lisabernand here, Charles, I seem to recall reading something about when the Portuguese explorers were working their way down the eastern African coast in the 1500s, they created the story to drive interest in their endeavor, and as they say on Madison Ave., the story 'grew legs'. When it was disproven, they merely transplanted the notion to the New World in order to secure investments, using the tribes along the Amazon River as examples, and also giving us the name today.

But the story is much older than that. There are references to matriarchal societies throughout most of the world, possibly based on a very old religious belief in an "Earth Mother", however I have no valid citation for this. The closest I could come would be from Wikipedia: Matriarchy. As always, when dealing with this source, I would strongly urge you to first go to the external links and review where the sourcing is from before formulating an opinion.

Right now, within 20 miles of where I sit, is what could be called a "matriarchal society", the Tonawanda-Senecas. From my understanding, all lineages are only considered valid if through a female descendant. Historically, only the females could own property and name children, and the males were considered temporary interlopers at best. Presently, the Nations have followed Western mores and allow patriarchy in terms of property ownership, etc.

< Message edited by MasterCaneman -- 5/27/2013 7:40:07 AM >

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 7:57:08 AM

littlewonder

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As of right now, there has been no proof of Amazon women. There have been women found who were warriors and they were unusual and the exception to the rule but no Amazon group of women have ever been found. Mostly it's just the imagination of men like you Charles.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 8:03:46 AM

njlauren

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The term BD/Sm, S/M is rather of recent vintage from what I can tell, but what we call BD/SM has probably been around for a long, long time, maybe back to the dawn of human intelligence. There were 'secret societies' in England and France going back into the 17th century, clubs like Hellfire in the UK and so forth (or at least that is what I recall off the top of my head). I do know the upper classes in both countries had decadent balls where all kinds of stuff went on, including what we would call BD/SM play, and I remember reading an account of a gorgeous french Noblewoman in the mid 18th century whose husband was definitely her sub, accounts were she would dress him up as a woman and have the help around the estate have sex with him (and she herself was known for many lovers, male and female if the accounts are right), it was pretty intense.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 2:52:24 PM

muhly22222

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

As of right now, there has been no proof of Amazon women. There have been women found who were warriors and they were unusual and the exception to the rule but no Amazon group of women have ever been found. Mostly it's just the imagination of men like you Charles.

Even assuming this is true, since I don't know of any sort of evidence to the contrary, that tells us a lot about those sorts of fantasies. The fact that the story of the Amazons has been around for such a long time, and accepted as fact by so many people, tells us that it's a concept a substantial number of people want to be true.

That's kind of the flip side of cold, hard historical facts...interpreting what the stories mean for the people who are spreading them.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 3:34:13 PM

Charles6682

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The Amazon fantasies aren't any of mine.Fact or fiction,the stories I did read about the "Amazon Women" are a bit too extreme for me.I like my limbs!

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 3:37:21 PM

Charles6682

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Another big difference for submissive men these days from male subs of the past,is that this fetish isn't limited to just the "upper class" anymore,who were able to afford costly sessions.These days,anyone from any walk of life is welcome to explore this way of life.Collarme is a perfect example of that.Here is a FREE fetish site,where people from all over the world can talk with each other.I am glad I live in modern day times.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 7:52:48 PM

RemoteUser

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I suspect that if you wanted to learn more about how the culture developed from being underground, you might want to chat with LadyPact about the history of leather. There are strong ties there (sorry LP, I can't resist a good pun).

Sex happens in every caste, don't fall into the trap of thinking that BDSM is aristocratic. The aristocrats were just less shameful, and had more press coverage.

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RE: The history of BDSM - 5/27/2013 8:04:40 PM

SeverinVim

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Another big difference for submissive men these days from male subs of the past,is that this fetish isn't limited to just the "upper class" anymore,who were able to afford costly sessions.These days,anyone from any walk of life is welcome to explore this way of life.Collarme is a perfect example of that.Here is a FREE fetish site,where people from all over the world can talk with each other.I am glad I live in modern day times.

I'm not sure that I agree with you. Speaking only from my personal experience, when I attended munches and play parties in New York a few years ago, I was nearly surrounded by self-assured young people from relatively affluent backgrounds. They didn't take very well to strangers, either.

Also, do you think that rope play is inexpensive? What about knife play?

I mean, really, all that was missing were the fleur-de-lis...

:-)

< Message edited by SeverinVim -- 5/27/2013 8:08:04 PM >

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