RE: Moral value of a foreign life?

RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Moral value of a foreign life?

We should be able to sacrifice >1 countrymen for 1 foreigner.

14% (3)

The countryman and the foreigner's life have the same value.

42% (9)

It is ok to sacrifice some foreigners for one countryman, only some.

9% (2)

Around 1000 foreigners for one countryman is a fair deal.

0% (0)

No amount of foreigners justify sacrificing one single countryman.

33% (7)

Total Votes : 21

(last vote on : 5/29/2013 6:20:04 AM)
(Poll ended: 5/31/2013 12:00:00 AM)

Message

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/5/2013 2:01:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally. It's ok, you are wired this way. I just shown that there are other forms to understand the "local tribe" with have nothing to do with the state, and people actually use them (there are some dixies still, yes? :) ).

thompsonx -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/5/2013 6:19:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Real life situation. WWII You have the bomb drop it and save your soldiers (and your allies men as well) or do you refuse to and sacrifice God only know how many of your (and allies) men to avoid killing the enemy. I say drop it even if it exterminates Japan. That may be because you are ignorant of the facts of ww2. You are only 180% off. How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record. The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them. So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification[8\|]. If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property?[8\|]

thompsonx -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/5/2013 6:22:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally. As an nrelated aside, a paper on modern slavery put the value of a human life at no more than 5000 USD anywhere in the world and most places much less. That is a little pricy...in east l.a. you can pop a cap in someone's ass for a nickle bag of reds.

BamaD -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/5/2013 3:35:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: BamaD Real life situation. WWII You have the bomb drop it and save your soldiers (and your allies men as well) or do you refuse to and sacrifice God only know how many of your (and allies) men to avoid killing the enemy. I say drop it even if it exterminates Japan. That may be because you are ignorant of the facts of ww2. You are only 180% off. How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record. The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them. So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification[8\|]. If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property?[8\|] In 45 the Japanese plan was to inflict so many casualties that we would just quit. The had a plan to use bacteriological warfare against San Diego if we invaded. The army tried to kill Hirohito because he was willing to surrender after the first bomb. Any "surrender" in 43 would have allowed the Japanese to keep all their gains in China and would have left their military in tact to try again.

MrBukani -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 3:18:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Ahhhh... For me the political unit means nothing and I try to fight against the proximity thing but that is very hard to do viscerally. It's ok, you are wired this way. I just shown that there are other forms to understand the "local tribe" with have nothing to do with the state, and people actually use them (there are some dixies still, yes? :) ). Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's. Striking resemblance. There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language. This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality.

Politesub53 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 3:47:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's. Striking resemblance. There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language. This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality. Ah the irony.

MrBukani -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 4:28:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Aww you made up a new word? The "local tribe" like the Dixies? No wonder you have a hard time getting with it. Again this is exactly what politicians do to veil the truth. Make up new word combo's. Striking resemblance. There is enough words in the dictionary to put any problem into rational language. This is just babble to confirm your own grasp on reality. Ah the irony. Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up. Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.[;)]

egern -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 7:45:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster I am trying to find out the general feeling here about the value of a life of someone of your country, compared to the life of a foreigner. I try to give both extremes and everything between. The context are questions about geopolitics, wars, interventions, reactions to deaths, etc. Please consider always equivalent lives. A soldier for a soldier, a child for a child, etc. PS: If you can post here your nationality associated to your vote, I would be glad. Thank you all! Obviously a life is a life, and no life is more important than another. I realize not many think like that, and in light of for instance drone attacks it is clear that the US leadership thinks that foreign lives do not count much. For the public - any public - it seems the further away casualties are, the less they count. I am Danish.

thompsonx -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 10:37:58 AM)
quote: How so? The japs started trying to surrender in 1943...at least according to toland and the historicl record. The destruction of their army in china by the russians removed the last significant combat toops available to them. So now we are left with "exterminate japan" as a justification. If we had exterminated them how would we have been able to expropriate their heavy industry? Tell us again who owns the shipyard which produced the largest battle ship in the world? Doesn't that shipyard pfoduce supertankers ? How much did they pay the japs for private property? quote: In 45 the Japanese plan was to inflict so many casualties that we would just quit. Not according to toland. quote: The had a plan to use bacteriological warfare against San Diego if we invaded. Validation please. quote: The army tried to kill Hirohito because he was willing to surrender after the first bomb. Not according to toland. quote: Any "surrender" in 43 would have allowed the Japanese to keep all their gains in China and would have left their military in tact to try again. []To try what again?

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 12:37:59 PM)
Thank you, egren.

PeonForHer -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 3:57:57 PM)
quote: It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first. I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese. But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code despite one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere.

Politesub53 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 5:06:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up. Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.[;)] Gee bro, as much as I love the idea of being your wingman, think of me more as a kindly schoolmaster, looking over your shoulder and correcting your errors.

Politesub53 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 5:08:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first. I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese. But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code despite one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere. QFT......

Powergamz1 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/6/2013 11:38:10 PM)
Not a criticism, but I've never been able to bring myself to think/feel that way. It's valid for you, it's a mystery to me. Maybe it was reading the War Prayer at an early age, more likely it was living overseas for a few years while growing up, but I always have the same reaction... How can something (place of birth) over which you had no control and did nothing to earn, be so strong a factor like that? I feel very lucky that I wasn't born in an extremely distressed situation, like a Somali refugee camp, but I literally don't 'get' the notion of 'Us' and 'Them beyond a frame of reference. I really do wish that the concept of 'citizen of the world' had taken over long before now. quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: It's hard to sort this out because we are "wired" to think about local tribes not global communities. But my higher level intellect understands that technology has changed the world and I can no longer afford to worry about local first. I think that's it in a nutshell, Jeff. Me, I know in my heart of hearts that I will feel more about, say, the death of a Briton than I will about the death of a Sudanese or a Chinese. But that isn't the point, I've concluded. The point of morality is precisely to stick to a moral code despite one's feelings and what even the 'heart of hearts says'. If that means going against one's 'gut', then so be it. The gut is emphatically not always right, no matter how many times they pump the opposite message (which has always somewhat stunk of anti-rationalism, to me) in Hollywood and elsewhere.

SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/9/2013 9:50:33 PM)
Ok then... thanks everybody again, I am desubscribing now. Thanks! Thanks!

MrBukani -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/10/2013 2:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Guess you are my new wingman. Keep it up. Thank you very much, this is not a hollow thank you, it's genuine to the cause.[;)] Gee bro, as much as I love the idea of being your wingman, think of me more as a kindly schoolmaster, looking over your shoulder and correcting your errors. What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol.

Politesub53 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/10/2013 3:52:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol. Speaking of cannabis, dont smoke and post......really.

thompsonx -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/17/2013 7:41:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani What people percieve as right or wrong changes with time. Otherwise we would still be stoning suckers and believing cannabis is worse than alcohol. Speaking of cannabis, dont smoke and post......really. Wouldn't that be counterproductive?

Charles6682 -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/17/2013 8:41:09 AM)
Life is life,period.

BamaD -> RE: Moral value of a foreign life? (6/17/2013 2:58:12 PM)
Not according to toland. Toland was a fool.

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