RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days?

RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (Full Version)

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Zonie63 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/4/2013 9:21:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: Quote: Zonie Oil was an important commodity during World War II, but my recollection is that Persian Gulf oil was still in a developing stage. There have been other areas of the world with significant oil reserves. The Arabs are/were not the only game in town. That's where I run into trouble accepting the "it's all about oil" position that many people take when explaining our Middle Eastern policies. The world oil supply is not confined to the Middle East or even OPEC. If America has a policy of subverting and/or invading countries for the purpose of taking their resources, we might have tried finding easier places in the world to do that. The Persian Gulf had long been producing oil by WW2. Englishman William D`Arcy signed a contract with Persia back in 1901. He almost went skint and sold most of his rights to Scottish firm Burmah Oil. After spending a small fortune they were about to give up and sent a telegram to halt exploration. The engineer carried on for a few weeks and then struck oil. This was in 1910-ish. Ironically this was in response to having to buy all our oil from the Americans or the Dutch, so I would suggest it really is all about oil. If not, its certainly all about money. Well, it's about power, I think. I never denied that oil was a factor, but it's not the only factor. As I mentioned to Vince in my response to him, all of our previous centuries of enmity, war, and crusades in that area of the world (long before world oil became a factor in geopolitics), it pretty much shows that the West's interest in the Middle East has not been just about oil.

Politesub53 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/4/2013 5:21:35 PM)
There was hardly any western activity in the area from the end of the crusades until the mid 19th century, except by Napoleon. Thats some 600 years. The main problem in the whole area is also about sectarian violence, Sunni vs Shia. If you look at Syrias history, it has always been mainly Sunni. The Ottoman Turks were Sunni and looked down upon other Muslim sects, considering them lower than Jews and Christians. After WW1 the French took over Syria and installed these minority sects into the military and such. A classic case of divide and conquer. Assad and his father have clung on to power with an iron grip and now we see the backlash.

Zonie63 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/4/2013 7:16:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 There was hardly any western activity in the area from the end of the crusades until the mid 19th century, except by Napoleon. Thats some 600 years. There was also the Moors' invasion of Spain, which didn't end until the 15th century, as well as Turkish occupation of southeastern Europe which continued into the 20th century. Even in the mid-19th century, the British were involved in the Crimean War because they were afraid of possible Russian expansion into Turkey and the Middle East (which could have threatened British holdings in Africa and India). So, that at least would qualify as interest in the Middle East without oil being a factor. Columbus' famous voyage when he "discovered" America was motivated by Turkish control of the Middle East, which cut off their trade routes into Asia. So, they had to find another way to China, and Columbus happened upon this continent instead. quote: The main problem in the whole area is also about sectarian violence, Sunni vs Shia. If you look at Syrias history, it has always been mainly Sunni. The Ottoman Turks were Sunni and looked down upon other Muslim sects, considering them lower than Jews and Christians. After WW1 the French took over Syria and installed these minority sects into the military and such. A classic case of divide and conquer. Assad and his father have clung on to power with an iron grip and now we see the backlash. Indeed, and now Turkey is facing some turmoil of its own.

Edwynn -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 12:23:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle The Iranians and Russians have sent very clear signals they are standing by Assad. His forces are regaining ground previously lost to the rebels. I think that, for sake of accuracy, this should be stated as "Iran and Russia have sent very clear signals ..." so as to not implicate all citizens therein. Even with 'further advanced democracies' such as in the US or UK, where the politico-media effluence is so stifling (in fact, quite because of that), we should know better than to say "The Americans this" or "The British that," etc. Other than that, this ain't no "cold war redux" or in any other way something that westerners can relate to. Not foisting square pegs upon round holes in this one. We don't know what's going on in that region any more than we did 112 yrs. ago, when oil was first claimed by your countryman D'arcy in Persia, or 90 yrs. ago, when the western oil companies divvied up the spoils.

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 1:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aswad quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Nobody has ever started a war they have no chance in hell to win. Afghanistan, a.k.a. the graveyard of empires, has seen plenty of wars, most started with no chance in hell to win. IWYW, — Aswad. Maybe it's how you define a win then. The USA walked over Iraq and Afghanistan both in a couple weeks. Now the Taliban is hiding in caves. That's like saying Germany didn't own fortress Europe, cause there were always pockets of resistance. So in that definition most wars were never won. Anyway I have heard the evidence about Vietnam from a good source. Wich I rely on more then people twisting their own reality to fit their future bill on a forum.[:D] Believe what you like and redefine words so they will loose their meaning and you always got a discussion you win in your own head. And spanishmatmatie you don't own anything but your own. So get off, you sound like a teenager with that net speech. Is this how you would speak in real life? Oh my sounds wicked man.[:D] Go do the hid thingy too. Again priceless, say tata. And maybe do the block too. Thanks for the laughs.

Politesub53 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 2:37:34 AM)
"Now the Taliban is hiding in caves." Priceless indeed. [8\|]

vincentML -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 10:59:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 There was hardly any western activity in the area from the end of the crusades until the mid 19th century, except by Napoleon. Thats some 600 years. There was also the Moors' invasion of Spain, which didn't end until the 15th century, as well as Turkish occupation of southeastern Europe which continued into the 20th century. Even in the mid-19th century, the British were involved in the Crimean War because they were afraid of possible Russian expansion into Turkey and the Middle East (which could have threatened British holdings in Africa and India). So, that at least would qualify as interest in the Middle East without oil being a factor. Columbus' famous voyage when he "discovered" America was motivated by Turkish control of the Middle East, which cut off their trade routes into Asia. So, they had to find another way to China, and Columbus happened upon this continent instead. quote: The main problem in the whole area is also about sectarian violence, Sunni vs Shia. If you look at Syrias history, it has always been mainly Sunni. The Ottoman Turks were Sunni and looked down upon other Muslim sects, considering them lower than Jews and Christians. After WW1 the French took over Syria and installed these minority sects into the military and such. A classic case of divide and conquer. Assad and his father have clung on to power with an iron grip and now we see the backlash. Indeed, and now Turkey is facing some turmoil of its own. Zonie, most of the history you depicted above at the "crossroads" implies commercial reasons for conflict not religious. At least as far as Europe and America are concerned. I do wish to point out one monumental event that is often ignored and does support your thesis that religion plays a big role in any consideration of ME politics . . . that is the genocide of a million or more christian Armenians by the Turks and Kurds in 1915. It is difficult to ignore religious motivation in that region whose history has been so fanatical and self-destructive. all the more reason why Obama should do well to keep us militarily disengaged. I simply do not comprehend the eagerness of the British and French commands to rush into that awful mess. The whole notion of humanitarian wars is madness. If a nation's vital strategic interest is not at issue they should stay the hell out of any war.

Politesub53 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 5:05:33 PM)
quote: If a nation's vital strategic interest is not at issue they should stay the hell out of any war. I would take issue with this in most circumstances. Nothing gives any one nation the right ti invade another except self defence. Hopefully you are not suggesting invading Iraq for oil was a legitamate strategic interest.

Rule -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 5:42:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 Nothing gives any one nation the right ti invade another except self defence. Pff, I am going to invade Great Britain. Surrender, you fiends!

Zonie63 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 6:40:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Zonie63 quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 There was hardly any western activity in the area from the end of the crusades until the mid 19th century, except by Napoleon. Thats some 600 years. There was also the Moors' invasion of Spain, which didn't end until the 15th century, as well as Turkish occupation of southeastern Europe which continued into the 20th century. Even in the mid-19th century, the British were involved in the Crimean War because they were afraid of possible Russian expansion into Turkey and the Middle East (which could have threatened British holdings in Africa and India). So, that at least would qualify as interest in the Middle East without oil being a factor. Columbus' famous voyage when he "discovered" America was motivated by Turkish control of the Middle East, which cut off their trade routes into Asia. So, they had to find another way to China, and Columbus happened upon this continent instead. quote: The main problem in the whole area is also about sectarian violence, Sunni vs Shia. If you look at Syrias history, it has always been mainly Sunni. The Ottoman Turks were Sunni and looked down upon other Muslim sects, considering them lower than Jews and Christians. After WW1 the French took over Syria and installed these minority sects into the military and such. A classic case of divide and conquer. Assad and his father have clung on to power with an iron grip and now we see the backlash. Indeed, and now Turkey is facing some turmoil of its own. Zonie, most of the history you depicted above at the "crossroads" implies commercial reasons for conflict not religious. At least as far as Europe and America are concerned. Yes, but it wasn't always about oil. That was my main point. Of course, the Middle Eastern peoples had their own reasons for fighting. quote: I do wish to point out one monumental event that is often ignored and does support your thesis that religion plays a big role in any consideration of ME politics . . . that is the genocide of a million or more christian Armenians by the Turks and Kurds in 1915. It is difficult to ignore religious motivation in that region whose history has been so fanatical and self-destructive. all the more reason why Obama should do well to keep us militarily disengaged. I simply do not comprehend the eagerness of the British and French commands to rush into that awful mess. The whole notion of humanitarian wars is madness. If a nation's vital strategic interest is not at issue they should stay the hell out of any war. I agree completely. But even if strategic interests are at issue, I would still prefer negotiation to open conflict. We need better negotiators and more intelligent diplomats to do that.

Aswad -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/5/2013 7:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani The USA walked over Iraq and Afghanistan both in a couple weeks. The USA and its allies walked into Afghanistan, and they're currently limping back out, but thanks for the good laugh. quote: Now the Taliban is hiding in caves. You do realize the Taliban is one of several groups we were fighting down there, and that part of the reason they're so hard to kill is that a bunch of them were already hiding in caves, and that a bunch of people there have been living in caves since time immemorial, right? Not that I'm saying you're right, just pointing out that if you had been, you still would've been missing the point. Go talk to some of the folks that have been down there, getting the lay of the land. The official statement by the guy in charge of the Norwegian contigents down there is that every military objective was successful, but failed to accomplish any of the goals that supposedly motivated the war in the first place, further that the latter is the case in every province. That's the very definition of complete and utter defeat. Add to this that AQ was looking for precisely this, and it's worse than defeat. The US now faces a massive debt, a bunch of psych cases with combat training released into the civilian population, a bunch of unstable countries in the region that tempt intervention, over thirty times the 9/11 casualty figures, and so on. All of which was predicted and desired by AQ. And, I might add, predicted and cautioned against by the rest of the western world, repeatedly. This is a disaster of biblical* porportions*, and you're billing it as a victory, indeed "walking over" the enemy. I dread to imagine what you'd bill as defeat. IWYW, — Aswad.

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 12:09:43 AM)
So it's a disaster of biblical proportions afghan women are getting educated again? It's a disaster syrian people are fighting for their own rights to freedom? People get killed in war, that's a fact, the real disaster would have been to let AQ roam free in Afghanistan. The Middle East is waking up and want democracy, is that a disaster of biblical proportion? Again it's what kind of disaster you are lookin for. You are saying the american and allied lives died for nothing, I say they died for a noble cause. Freedom. Catch you later alligator.

JeffBC -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 12:39:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani. You are saying the american and allied lives died for nothing, I say they died for a noble cause. Freedom. I asked my son who is very smart, very observant, and in ntelligence what they were doing down there. His first hand report does not match your flag waving rhetoric. His answer? "we are protecting poppy fields"

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 1:45:14 AM)
Could Afghan Opium Trade Go Legal? So there's no oilpipeline in Afghanistan that's important? Smart kid you got btw. Do you teach him also about liberties? Read the piece if you want to combat drugproblems. I for one know many iranians are getting addicted on that fine afghan horse. What better way to derail Iran?[:D] He must have a smart mother cause daddy has problems spelling intelligent. [:D] Sorry that was just for laughs.

JeffBC -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 1:51:49 AM)
Wow... I mean... Ok, there is often a lot of disagreement on PR. You got nutcases like me saying Obama should be tried as a traitor and Bush as a war criminal. You got various conspiracy theories. And even so your stunning lack of touch with reality is astonishing. What did we get for the trillions we have spent?

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 2:23:28 AM)
Back to Syria, if anybody wants the war to end soon, you have to bring more guns in, on the right side. War is that simple. Otherwise you prolongue the conflict and feed radical factions. But we are oh so civilized and we have a teeny weenie problem justifying it ethically. Well here it is. Don't ship guns and you will have more deaths. Hell they are so low on ammo they are starting to use chemical weapons. Reminds me of Iraq who supposed to have none way back then. Sure they had it. Fuck a dutchie sold it to them.[:D], He is on trial now. Guess you all never followed that newstrail. There is your weapons of mass destruction. It's easy to get mustard, right? It's easy to make chemical weapons. I hope God is out there watching us struggle with good and evil. Otherwise we can only blame ourselves for the drama.

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 3:00:14 AM)
China buys up oil rights Iraq Thats what you get for being political correct.[:D]China is walkin away with claims that could have been ours. You wanna be so right you call your own countrymen warcriminals. I don't know, something is eating the heart out of america. And it ain't foreigners. Get real it's a dog eat dog world. You're just pissing in your own backyard. You still need oil for the economy to grow, so get with the program.

Politesub53 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 3:15:17 AM)
Aswads very pertinent quote. quote: Add to this that AQ was looking for precisely this, and it's worse than defeat. The US now faces a massive debt, a bunch of psych cases with combat training released into the civilian population, a bunch of unstable countries in the region that tempt intervention, over thirty times the 9/11 casualty figures, and so on. All of which was predicted and desired by AQ. And, I might add, predicted and cautioned against by the rest of the western world, repeatedly.

MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 3:45:10 AM)
I guess Osama predicted as well he got shot in the face?[:D] So what was the alternative? Being a pussy? Petting Saddam and Osama on the head saying, Good Boy! Maybe a cuddle would have helped? I know you love to cuddle your enemy to death.[:D] I just love sadomasochistic hippies, they're the bomb! [sm=anger.gif]

DesideriScuri -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 3:46:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrBukani Could Afghan Opium Trade Go Legal? So there's no oilpipeline in Afghanistan that's important? Smart kid you got btw. Do you teach him also about liberties? Read the piece if you want to combat drugproblems. I for one know many iranians are getting addicted on that fine afghan horse. What better way to derail Iran?[:D] Legalize the opium trade? You don't think the drug barons are going to set themselves up as the middlemen? They want their drug money. They'll get it. Farmers who don't sell to them will end up with issues, too. Legalizing the sale of opium isn't necessarily going to be accepted, either. You'll have "foreigners" competing with locals (the drug barons). Which do you think will have more pull? quote: He must have a smart mother cause daddy has problems spelling intelligent. [:D] Sorry that was just for laughs. Your apology rings hollow. This was unnecessary to add, really.

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