RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (Full Version)

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MrBukani -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 4:08:37 AM)

Thats the beauty of legalizing any drug, it's cutting out the middleman. Again what is the alternative? The War on Drugs? That worked really well.[:D]
My sorry is just as hollow as the alternatives.[;)]



DesideriScuri -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 4:53:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
I guess Osama predicted as well he got shot in the face?[:D]
So what was the alternative? Being a pussy? Petting Saddam and Osama on the head saying, Good Boy!
Maybe a cuddle would have helped?
I know you love to cuddle your enemy to death.[:D]
I just love sadomasochistic hippies, they're the bomb!


The answer would have been to go after Osama and getting him. That wouldn't have been "being a pussy" at all.

The case for invading Iraq could have been made based on the UNSC Resolution 687, which authorized force if Iraq didn't comply with the end of the 1991 Gulf War.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 5:07:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
Thats the beauty of legalizing any drug, it's cutting out the middleman. Again what is the alternative? The War on Drugs? That worked really well.[:D]


You aren't necessarily cutting out the middlemen, though. You are, however, setting things up for future issues. The poppy farmers will be bullied by the drug barons, or the drug barons will increase their purchase price. I'm sure they have some wiggle room in their profit margin.

    quote:

    A quick glance at production statistics proves the general's point. The UN Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC) found that the amount of raw opium produced in Afghanistan in 2006 had increased by 49 percent over the previous year to around 6,100 tons. Much of the proceeds -- an estimated $3 billion -- are pumped back into the Taliban, as the Islamists continue to gain ground against NATO and US forces in the southern part of the country.


Who is funneling cash back to the Taliban? The Drug Barons? What is to stop the Drug Barons from bullying the farmers, or simply <ahem> "buying" <ahem> the farms for themselves? Obviously, it's lucrative for the drug barons to engage the farmers, and it's sufficient for the farmers to farm the stuff.

What is the upside for Big Pharma? Sure, they get access to inputs to make opiates. But, what is the cost differential? Is it going to be more lucrative for Big Pharma to do this? If not, what makes you think they'll jump on the bandwagon?

Edited to add: Legalizing drugs in the US has always had the claim that making those drugs available legally would ruin the profits of the drug pushers. Legal sales would increase supply and reduce the risks involved, lowering the cost. Drug cartels would still be able to supply the stuff, but at a much lower cost, which could very easily reduce their profits enough to ruin that "revenue stream." But, in the case of opium production in Afghanistan, you aren't legalizing the drug, just the trade of the drug. The farmer's risks involved in producing opium are greatly reduced, so guaranteeing a minimum price is going to drive up profits, and could increase the incentive for more farmers to start farming poppies. Unless there is greater profit margin in switching to opium for Big Pharma than there is for the Drug Barons, Big Pharma won't be able to compete on price for the opium.

quote:

My sorry is just as hollow as the alternatives.[;)]


Hollow as not insulting JeffBC? That was one alternative that should have been taken, imo. Wouldn't have needed any apology, hollow or otherwise.



Rule -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 5:16:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
The War on Drugs?

There is an inherent lie by omission in that slogan. In fact the correct slogan ought to be: "The war on the other traffickers' drug trades".

ETA: The abuse of drugs is easily ended: Simply shoot ten abusers every day and people will be motivated to either not start abusing drugs, or flee the country. If after a months and thirty executions there is no noticeable effect, double the number of executions until the desired for effect manifests.



Aswad -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 7:00:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

So it's a disaster of biblical proportions afghan women are getting educated again?


No, it's a disaster of biblical porportions when you set out with a goal in mind and end up with an outcome diametrically opposed to the goal.

quote:

It's a disaster syrian people are fighting for their own rights to freedom?


Some Syrians are fighting for their freedom. Many are fighting for the opposite.

quote:

People get killed in war, that's a fact, the real disaster would have been to let AQ roam free in Afghanistan.


AQ presently roams freely in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Iraq and other places.

quote:

The Middle East is waking up and want democracy, is that a disaster of biblical proportion?


LOL. The Middle East is waking up and want a caliphate.

quote:

You are saying the american and allied lives died for nothing, I say they died for a noble cause.


I say they ultimately died for Al-Qaeda, as outlined in the documents we have detailing the purpose of the 9/11 attacks.

Like many others, Lt. Cmdr. Bolle of the Norwegian Navy Special Operations Command was on his last tour, after 8 years in Afghanistan, when he was killed by an IED in 2010, along with Eldjarn, Tolke and Lien. Toward the end, he had grown disillusioned with the war because, although it was quite important to uphold the NATO treaty, it was clear to him- from facetime with allies and enemies- that we were winning the battle while losing the war, all across Afghanistan.

This from a man, a hero by any military standard, that probably spent more time in the Afghanistan highlands than you ever spent reading about anything to do with the Middle East, who had served 21 years in the special forces at the time of his death and seen plenty of war without growing disillusioned, who went in with optimism. His wife and son received, posthumously, the War Cross with sword, the highest wartime gallantry decoration available, for which he had been recommended back in 2005 for his exceptional bravery and exemplary leadership above and beyond the call of duty. Previous decorations are from Kosovo and Yugoslavia. Locally, he's best known for counterextracting some kidnapped children from Morocco on his spare time.

Bolle, Jokke, Henriksen, all the other guys, they died fighting to uphold a mutual defense treaty, and for that I salute them.

In the final analysis, though, the agenda that sent them there, was set by AQ.

That's what they all died for, and it's Our. Fucking. Fault.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 7:04:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Back to Syria, if anybody wants the war to end soon, you have to bring more guns in, on the right side. War is that simple.


There's no reason to enter into a military conflict you have no stake in, as a rule.

More people may die without intervention, sure, without a doubt.

But it matters by whose hands they die.

IWYW,
— Aswad.




tweakabelle -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 7:36:34 PM)

quote:

Legalize the opium trade? You don't think the drug barons are going to set themselves up as the middlemen? They want their drug money. They'll get it. Farmers who don't sell to them will end up with issues, too. Legalizing the sale of opium isn't necessarily going to be accepted, either. You'll have "foreigners" competing with locals (the drug barons). Which do you think will have more pull?



So how is this any different to the situation at the moment? It seems to me that you have just described the status quo as an undesirable outcome of legalising the Afghan opium trade. If the worst outcome is the status quo, then it would appear that the proposal to legalise the Afghan opium trade has no downside risks.



DesideriScuri -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 7:38:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

Legalize the opium trade? You don't think the drug barons are going to set themselves up as the middlemen? They want their drug money. They'll get it. Farmers who don't sell to them will end up with issues, too. Legalizing the sale of opium isn't necessarily going to be accepted, either. You'll have "foreigners" competing with locals (the drug barons). Which do you think will have more pull?

So how is this any different to the situation at the moment? It seems to me that you have just described the status quo as an undesirable outcome of legalising the Afghan opium trade. If the worst outcome is the status quo, then it would appear that the proposal to legalise the Afghan opium trade has no downside risks.


Yeah, I'm sure there won't be any violence in between, either. [8|]



JeffBC -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 7:52:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
In the final analysis, though, the agenda that sent them there, was set by AQ.
That's what they all died for, and it's Our. Fucking. Fault.

ding.

All I can say is that if I was AQ I would be THRILLED. I wonder how much they ended up investing in dollars and lives to have us toss trillions of dollars down the drain along with hundreds of thousands of lives and the last tattered remnants of our constitution. I think it was one of the most incredible military victories of all time (not that I'm a military historian) but it's just gotta rank up there.



Aswad -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/6/2013 8:33:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

All I can say is that if I was AQ I would be THRILLED. I wonder how much they ended up investing in dollars and lives to have us toss trillions of dollars down the drain along with hundreds of thousands of lives and the last tattered remnants of our constitution. I think it was one of the most incredible military victories of all time (not that I'm a military historian) but it's just gotta rank up there.


A few hundred thousand dollars and a few men. That's what it cost up front. The cost was recouped after, on both points.

So, yeah, it's certainly the most cost effective example of military might in modern history.

Over a billion to one financial, over a thousand to one manpower.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

P.S.: In the process, we removed most obstacles to Sunni jihadism in the region, and many obstacles to a united caliphate.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 12:37:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Sorry but anyone that believes that we don't have troops in Syria is fooling themselves. Sure, it's not a lot of troops (the good Lord knows that) but, we're there.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Proof?



MasterCaneman -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 1:53:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Sorry but anyone that believes that we don't have troops in Syria is fooling themselves. Sure, it's not a lot of troops (the good Lord knows that) but, we're there.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Proof?


It's common knowledge that the US sends special-operations troops to regional hotspots. No, you'll never get absolute proof, but they're there, no doubt. For that matter, many nations with interests in the region have probably also deployed SO troops as well.



Aswad -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 4:59:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman

For that matter, many nations with interests in the region have probably also deployed SO troops as well.


Don't know anything specifically about Syria myself, but we have confirmed intelligence operatives in Pakistan, for instance, and have had for decades. It's only natural to maintain a reasonably close eye on every country out there, particularly the ones with ongoing activities of interest, even for a small country like ours. You can bet the US has plenty- we've even tracked a few up here (mostly involved in industrial espionage, a time honored business practice in the US), so there's bound to be more in Syria.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 7:21:36 PM)

Hello, MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
It's common knowledge that the US sends special-operations troops to regional hotspots
To all hotspots int he world? No, it is not common knowledge, I do not "know" it (actually I am certain it is false).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
No, you'll never get absolute proof, but they're there, no doubt.

You have no doubt. And no proof. Ok, thank you.



YN -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 10:07:12 PM)

You haven't consulted Latin Americans.



MasterCaneman -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/7/2013 11:48:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Hello, MasterCaneman

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
It's common knowledge that the US sends special-operations troops to regional hotspots
To all hotspots int he world? No, it is not common knowledge, I do not "know" it (actually I am certain it is false).

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
No, you'll never get absolute proof, but they're there, no doubt.

You have no doubt. And no proof. Ok, thank you.

You're quite welcome. You want proof? How about the Washington Post? Or maybe this article from The New American?

Now, after you're done wiping the smug off your face, here's the breakdown: It's not rocket science, the information is public knowledge about how the US has small teams of observers pretty much anywhere there's a problem because like it or not, we end being the ones who get to clean up the mess. And don't get started on Iraq/Afghanistan, I already know what you're gonna say, so save some electrons for something meaningful.

Like us, hate us, tolerate us, whenever the world gets in trouble, they tend to look to the US to fix it. That's a fact. They don't appeal to the Chinese or the Russians or the French or British (and most certainly not Spain) when they need something big fixed. They call us. And when there's a conflict brewing, I'll take the Vegas line on there being at least one SEAL team or Green Beret "A" team on the ground somewhere near it, if anything to direct airstrikes.

There's your proof. Take it or leave it.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/8/2013 3:09:35 AM)

Hello again, MasterCaneman.

You told that you have no proof. Then you try to give me proof. Pretty illogical.

Your view about the role of the USA is not relevant for the initial assert, which was not about anybody seeking anybody for anything but about US troops in Syria. Very concrete, very factual, very clear. And you do not have proof of that. And that's all I was asking.

Your view about the role of the USA is wrong too. You know, some people do not so much call the USA but pledge them to finally fuck off of their business and stop making things worse, but this is probably something you are not able to understand. And would really require another thread

Best regards.



Zonie63 -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/8/2013 6:32:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterCaneman
we end being the ones who get to clean up the mess.


That's only by choice. We don't really have to clean up the world's messes.



MasterCaneman -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/8/2013 10:43:23 AM)

"Proof" as indicated would not be watered down and filtered news reports as I showed you. Those merely confirm what is public knowledge. Actual proof would be movement orders, logistics requests, traffic transcripts, and after-action reports. These are the kinds of things the news people don't get to see until much, much later. So much for being illogical.

As for the US "getting the fuck off their business and stop making things worse", here's a little eye-opener for you, pal. Like it or not, the US has too many overseas commitments to just back off. The last time we took an isolationist stance a little turd named Hitler almost took over the world. Our economy is too deeply intertwined with the rest of the planet to just back off.

Zonie, you're absolutely right-we don't have to. But we do for precisely the reason I gave above. And because I believe that we as a nation still believe we can make the world a better place. Probably delusional, true, but we as a nation are like that.



Edwynn -> RE: Syria: A Return to Cold War Days? (6/8/2013 12:16:46 PM)


"We" clean up the messes instigated by "us."

I just knew that there was some progression to be had from this.





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