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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:17:35 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

SOUTH PORTLAND, Maine — Dr. Michael Ciampi took a step this spring that many of his fellow physicians would describe as radical.

The family physician stopped accepting all forms of health insurance. In early 2013, Ciampi sent a letter to his patients informing them that he would no longer accept any kind of health coverage, both private and government-sponsored. Given that he was now asking patients to pay for his services out of pocket, he posted his prices on the practice’s website.

Before, Ciampi charged $160 for an office visit with an existing patient facing one or more complicated health problems. Now, he charges $75.

Patients with an earache or strep throat can spend $300 at their local hospital emergency room, or promptly get an appointment at his office and pay $50, he said.

Ciampi collects payment at the end of the visit, freeing him of the time and costs associated with sending bills, he said.

That time is crucial to Ciampi. When his patients come to his office, they see him, not a physician’s assistant or a nurse practitioner, he said.

“If more doctors were able to do this, that would be real health care reform,” he said. “That’s when we’d see the cost of medicine truly go down.”


It will be interesting to see just how well he does. I'd expect, though, that if enough practitioners do it, government shall make it illegal.



Sound exactly like what we have in Belgium.

You go in, you pay the doc, you see him, not his nurse or whatever.

Except that we do have insurance, it's just that you file with your insurance yourself instead of having the doc pay for administration to do that for you.

His prices are still high compared to Belgian rates though.

The average doctor's appointments costs about 25 euros, most of that you get back when you file with the insurance.

< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 5/29/2013 2:22:13 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:21:00 PM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen

I need to go to see the doctor, with an earache or strep throat or anything more complicated, and it doesn't cost me a penny.



So your taxes are zero too then?

Just cause you pay it upfront, doesn't mean you didn't pay for it.

Though, what you pay upfront is far far far less than what people here in the US pay.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:29:15 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Surely, you have it a bit wrong. I'm blaming the American people for being litigious; for thinking that God forbid, someone who's trying to help them has made a mistake and they've just hit the lottery.

Doctors fuck up and the only way to get outside review is to go to court, as far as I know.

quote:

I need to add this: If it were legal, I would be more than willing to sign a release form, abdicating my rights to sue someone who's doing their best to help me. This would enable doctors to cut their opperating costs significantly.

Really? You would go into an OR without legal protection? Wow!


I believe (someone from Canada or another jurisdiction that has a single payer system help me out here) the way that this issue is handled in places like Canada is that medical malpractice awards are capped. This allows people to still sue for malpractice but not get the ridiculously huge awards that the American jury system is notorious for. This does help keep costs down.

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:30:54 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Surely, you have it a bit wrong. I'm blaming the American people for being litigious; for thinking that God forbid, someone who's trying to help them has made a mistake and they've just hit the lottery.

Doctors fuck up and the only way to get outside review is to go to court, as far as I know.

quote:

I need to add this: If it were legal, I would be more than willing to sign a release form, abdicating my rights to sue someone who's doing their best to help me. This would enable doctors to cut their opperating costs significantly.

Really? You would go into an OR without legal protection? Wow!


I believe (someone from Canada or another jurisdiction that has a single payer system help me out here) the way that this issue is handled in places like Canada is that medical malpractice awards are capped. This allows people to still sue for malpractice but not get the ridiculously huge awards that the American jury system is notorious for. This does help keep costs down.

It would also help if they stopped practicing and started actually doing their job.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:38:25 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Really? You would go into an OR without legal protection? Wow!



I absolutely would. I really believe that part of the problem is the greed of people who will piss in the mouth of a gift horse.

A person has studied their ass off for years to learn enough about the human body to help me when I'm sick or in pain. They make a diagnosis and suggest a treatement - all in good faith - and they make a mistake and I feel justified in suing the crap out of them? Ridiculous!

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

It would also help if they stopped practicing and started actually doing their job.



A joke I make, all the time, when one of the doctor's employees feel the need to remind me of how long he's been "practicing" and I say something like: "I'll be back, when he's good at it".



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:48:08 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
quote:

ORIGINAL: MyMasterStephen
I need to go to see the doctor, with an earache or strep throat or anything more complicated, and it doesn't cost me a penny.


So your taxes are zero too then?

For some of us, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Just cause you pay it upfront, doesn't mean you didn't pay for it.

If you never have a job and lived on benefits, you wouldn't have paid a single red cent.

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
Though, what you pay upfront is far far far less than what people here in the US pay.

In the UK, it's 12% of earnings above the tax threshhold.

From what I've heard from friends in the US, sometimes the health insurance is costing them as much as 50% of what they are earning.
Add to that the cost of every visit to a doctor.
Then the cost of every med in a prescription.
That's scandalous!


(in reply to UllrsIshtar)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:54:27 PM   
playfulotter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

If Americans weren't so fucking litigious, the cost for a doctor doing business would be significantly reduced (something like an average of $300,000 per year per doctor).

The usual right wing rot. Not you, Michael. The blame the Lawyers ploy. Ciampi graduated from Tufts Medical School. No backwater college that. He has more than one office. He has been in the biz for almost two decades. I guess he is doing alright. and now he is shifting office costs to his patients along with major surgical risks.


Surely, you have it a bit wrong. I'm blaming the American people for being litigious; for thinking that God forbid, someone who's trying to help them has made a mistake and they've just hit the lottery.

As a result, a doctor needs to "protect" himself to make sure he doesn't lose his house over an honest mistake. He turns to insurance companies. They're, essentially, "run" by lawyers.

I'm not sure but, I would bet that better than half of the members of congress have a law degree; not that they ever practiced but, I'll bet they're lawyers. They write the laws that make a doctor, making an honest mistake, open to lawsuits.

It's a crazy, screwed-up system where someone (I am going back many years ago because this isn't what the case is now) devotes their life to helping their fellow man and they have to worry about which of their beneficiaries is going to fuck them, next.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

I need to add this: If it were legal, I would be more than willing to sign a release form, abdicating my rights to sue someone who's doing their best to help me. This would enable doctors to cut their operating costs significantly.

quote:

vincentML


I agree with DaddySatyr...so many people sue doctors for just about anything and they have to be so careful how they treat a patient..they are walking a thin line when trying to heal a patient...do too much and the person has a bad reaction..they get sued...do too little and the patient doesn't heal....they get sued...they are not miracle workers...medicine is not an exact science.

< Message edited by playfulotter -- 5/29/2013 2:55:15 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 2:56:38 PM   
DaddySatyr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you never have a job and lived on benefits, you wouldn't have paid a single red cent.



Just a general pondering: Is this what human beings should aspire to?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 3:01:35 PM   
freedomdwarf1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

If you never have a job and lived on benefits, you wouldn't have paid a single red cent.



Just a general pondering: Is this what human beings should aspire to?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

I don't think so, no.
But it's a sad fact that far too many leave school and can't get a job.
Or get laid off from their job and can't find another.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 3:06:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

I agree with DaddySatyr...so many people sue doctors for just about anything and they have to be so careful how they treat a patient..they are walking a thin line when trying to heal a patient...do too much and the person has a bad reaction..they get sued...do too little and the patient doesn't heal....they get sued...they are not miracle workers...medicine is not an exact science.

If I were to say you are propouding a myth of over-litigation would you be able to cite facts and figures to support your position?

I am not talking about a thin line here. Sometimes horrendous mistakes are made. Wrong leg amputated from the wrong patient. Inexcusable stuff.

In the type of situation you suggest doctors are supposed to have a thorough medical history of the patient. This is not drive-in window medical care we are talking about.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 3:29:14 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Sometimes horrendous mistakes are made. Wrong leg amputated from the wrong patient. Inexcusable stuff.



That kind of case (I'm not doubting or disparaging but I'd like to see a link supporting it's happened recently) absolutely falls into the category of gross wrecklessness and dis-regard and I agree that such a person has some kind of claim.

I'm talking about the doctor that gives me those "super antibiotics" to fight off a major infection and I contract (I think it's called "sepcis?) the condition where I can't fight off any other attacks. Why is the doctor at fault?

I'll share a couple of stories:

Back in the 80s, I played bass and sang in a heavy metal band.

Anyone who plays the bass knows that the right hand is a pretty important factor (although one can play with a pick {plectrum, for my friends, across the pond} it changes the sound and style to a degree). The fingers on the right hand are needed to do triplets and slapping and plucking.

I got out of music and my life moved in a different direction. Life was good. Life was happy. I still enjoyed my music and made a few sheckles, doing it.

Fast forward to 2000. I was at work and two finger tips on my right hand were crushed off. The doctors call that "evolsion", I believe.

I was taken to the emergency room and treated by a hand specialist. Because the fingers had been crushed and not cut or chopped off, there was reconstruction that needed to be done.

The doctor in the ER (who, it turns out was the one to whom I was referred Hmmmmmmm ...) fucked up. My bone in my middle finger was bent at almost a 90 degree angle. It was sticking up through the nail bed. The result was gangrene (spelling?) and I wound up, not being able to keep the tip of the middle finger (anyone that is sadistic enough to need proof, I'll post a photo).

I have to admit that I thought about suing this sub-par doctor for about 10 minutes. Once I hashed it out in my head, I decided that I wasn't going to have much feeling or use for my finger tip, anyway.

Now, I would never recommend this doctor to anyone but, I believe that he did what he thought was right and it just didn't work out for me.

In March of last year, I went to a dentist to get some work done. It turns out there was infection all over my mouth and he had to remove all my teeth.

The nature of the infection was horrific and he put me on those "super antibiotics". I needed them because the oral infection had caused a pocket of infection around my heart and I was about to have a heart attack.

As a result of the super antibiotics, I developed another infection (I still haven't figured out how this works). That was, eventually, also cleared up.

I never once thought about suing the dentist. He warned me about the dangers and I made the choice. That's the way it goes.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 3:49:29 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Really? You would go into an OR without legal protection? Wow!

some people actually do, they go to other countries for surgery or various medical treatment and save BIG.. and in most of those countries you can not sue the docs like you can in the US.. people still go cuz of the cost differential, but the smart ones do make sure they get the best docs and hospitals they can in those countries..

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 3:54:02 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I believe (someone from Canada or another jurisdiction that has a single payer system help me out here) the way that this issue is handled in places like Canada is that medical malpractice awards are capped. This allows people to still sue for malpractice but not get the ridiculously huge awards that the American jury system is notorious for. This does help keep costs down.

Yes, they are capped, the docs still need malpractice insurance but the rates are considerably lower, one article i read was a doc in Florida would pay about $300k/yr where as an equivalent doc in Ontario, Canada would pay something like $28k/yr.. you could buy a house every year for the difference in those costs.. well, not a house in NY tho.. probably not even a closet..

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 4:31:39 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Thanks tj444 for confirming the malpractice insurance approach in Canada.

As for medical malpractice lawsuits - you can't avoid them. Doctors are NOT god. They are not even playing god. They are human, and errors get made. The point is that a hospital, the staff and the doctors involved in treating a patient (there is just usually not just one person involved), you expect the overall system to work to minimize egregious error. And, sadly, egregious error DOES occur. I'd like someone to explain why someone should not have recourse in the following types of situations? Again, it is one thing to cap payments. But it would be a mistake to eliminate a patient's ability to sue doctors and hospitals. Even Canada has not done that.

http://blog.caringlawyers.com/2011/02/13_disturbing_cases_of_medical_1.html

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 4:52:27 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Surely, you have it a bit wrong. I'm blaming the American people for being litigious; for thinking that God forbid, someone who's trying to help them has made a mistake and they've just hit the lottery.

Doctors fuck up and the only way to get outside review is to go to court, as far as I know.

quote:

I need to add this: If it were legal, I would be more than willing to sign a release form, abdicating my rights to sue someone who's doing their best to help me. This would enable doctors to cut their opperating costs significantly.

Really? You would go into an OR without legal protection? Wow!



Some are quick to always blame America 1st...and/or repeat goepee talking points like a parrot.


"healthcare", the American way....used to be a two or three tier system with with the haves,the have less and have-nothings.


As far as I`m concerned......any "doctor" who`s more interested in getting payed than healing folks needs to GTF out of the medical arts.There`s plenty of real doctors who`ll replace these dead beats......

I sure would put myself or a loved one in their care.

What gets me laughing the loudest is the biggest whiners and crybabies crying about the ACA aren`t even affected by it or participating in it.

It`s the definition of arrogance and elitism to want folks to be without healthcare.......






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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 5:01:58 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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Here is a link that describes the Canadian medical malpractice model quite well:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/canada-keeps-malpractice-cost-in-check/1021977

Any one payer system needs to cap malpractice or it just would not work to keep costs in check.

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 5:04:50 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		A question to the health care deniers.....what to do ya`ll make of a dozen gop governors who`re accepting Obamacare?

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 5:09:43 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

As far as I`m concerned......any "doctor" who`s more interested in getting payed than healing folks needs to GTF out of the medical arts.There`s plenty of real doctors who`ll replace these dead beats......



Sadly, we face a shortage of doctors

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100546118

< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 5/29/2013 5:10:05 PM >

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RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 5:40:38 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		There`s plenty in India who`re more than qualified who`ll be glad to take the job....


We certainly shouldn`t let a bunch of money grubbers hold our health hostage so they can get a BMW.


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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Health Care, the American way... - 5/29/2013 5:44:53 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

There`s plenty in India who`re more than qualified who`ll be glad to take the job....


We certainly shouldn`t let a bunch of money grubbers hold our health hostage so they can get a BMW.



Oy, that would require....gasp....immigration law reform.

Now look at what you've done!

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Profile   Post #: 40
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