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RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/30/2013 6:48:29 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

FR

Der Krugster is as mistaken as to the ACA as he is about neo-keynesian economic policies.

Well when you put it like that.....

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(in reply to Yachtie)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/30/2013 6:52:32 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
Important point about the Nobel Prizes: Unlike the Peace Prize, which can be intensely political and spur even my eyes to roll, the other prizes are awarded of the basis of actual merit.


1974 Nobel Prize in Economics: Gunnar Myrdal and Friedrich Hayek: "for their pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for their penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena."

1976 Nobel Prize in Economics: Milton Friedman: "for his achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy"

2008 Nobel Prize in Economics: Paul Krugman: "for his analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity"

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/30/2013 7:04:01 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

I'm not an economist, so I can't assess how Krugman stacks up technically against Hayek or Friedman. What's your reason for feeling their stars burn brighter? At least, though, we're finally comparing apples to apples, which was the point of my post.

The idea that economists may disagree is surely not news to either of us.



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/30/2013 8:20:18 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
Important point about the Nobel Prizes: Unlike the Peace Prize, which can be intensely political and spur even my eyes to roll, the other prizes are awarded of the basis of actual merit.


1974 Nobel Prize in Economics: Gunnar Myrdal and Friedrich Hayek: "for their pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for their penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena."

1976 Nobel Prize in Economics: Milton Friedman: "for his achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy"

2008 Nobel Prize in Economics: Paul Krugman: "for his analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity"

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).


Friedman definitely agreed with Keynes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_all_Keynesians_now

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/30/2013 10:52:17 PM   
BitYakin


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OPPPSSS

Friedman's challenges to what he later called "naive Keynesian" (as opposed to New Keynesian) theory[4] began with his 1950s reinterpretation of the consumption function, and he became the main advocate opposing activist Keynesian government policies.[5] In the late 1960s he described his own approach (along with all of mainstream economics) as using "Keynesian language and apparatus" yet rejecting its "initial" conclusions

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 2:03:19 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitYakin

OPPPSSS

Friedman's challenges to what he later called "naive Keynesian" (as opposed to New Keynesian) theory[4] began with his 1950s reinterpretation of the consumption function, and he became the main advocate opposing activist Keynesian government policies.[5] In the late 1960s he described his own approach (along with all of mainstream economics) as using "Keynesian language and apparatus" yet rejecting its "initial" conclusions

And by 1968 he was openly admitting that Keynes was right and that government intervention into the economy during a recession was a good thing. He may not have liked it but he accepted it as being right and necessary. That's why he said "we're all Keynesians now."

(in reply to BitYakin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 4:35:04 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

I'm not an economist, so I can't assess how Krugman stacks up technically against Hayek or Friedman. What's your reason for feeling their stars burn brighter? At least, though, we're finally comparing apples to apples, which was the point of my post.
The idea that economists may disagree is surely not news to either of us.


1. analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity
2. achievements in the field of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy
3. pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena

"One of these [things] is not like the others,
One of these [things] doesn`t belong.
Can you tell which [thing] is not like the others
By the time [I] finish [my post]?"



_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 4:49:14 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
FR
Important point about the Nobel Prizes: Unlike the Peace Prize, which can be intensely political and spur even my eyes to roll, the other prizes are awarded of the basis of actual merit.

1974 Nobel Prize in Economics: Gunnar Myrdal and Friedrich Hayek: "for their pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for their penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena."
1976 Nobel Prize in Economics: Milton Friedman: "for his achievements in the fields of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy"
2008 Nobel Prize in Economics: Paul Krugman: "for his analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity"
Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

Friedman definitely agreed with Keynes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_are_all_Keynesians_now


Come on, Ken. You can do much better than that.

Is Milton Friedman a Keynesian?
Roger W. Garrison
    quote:

    There is a story about a young job candidate interviewing for an entry-level position in the geography department of a state university. One senior faculty member, whose opinion of our modern educational system was not especially high, asked the simple question, "Which way does the Mississippi River run?" In ignorance of the biases of this particular geography department and in fear of jeopardizing his employment prospects, the candidate boldly replied, "I can teach it either way."
    When the question "Is Milton Friedman a Keynesian?" was first suggested to me as a topic, I couldn't help but think of the uncommitted geographer. But in this case, opposing answers can be defended with no loss of academic respectability. When teaching at the sophomore level to students who are hearing the names "Keynes" and "Friedman" for the first time, I provide the conventional contrast that emerges naturally out of the standard account of the "Keynesian Revolution" and the "Monetarist Counter-Revolution." To claim otherwise would come close to committing academic malpractice. Either a casual survey or a careful study of the writings of Keynes and Friedman reveals many issues on which these two theorists are poles apart.
    Yet, one can make the claim that Friedman is a Keynesian and remain in good scholarly company. Both Don Patinkin (Gordon, 1974) and Harry Johnson (1971) see Friedman's monetary theory as an extension of the ideas commonly associated with Keynes. Some of their arguments, however, run counter to those of the Austrian school, which serves as a basis for this chapter. And while Friedman, by his own account, was quoted out of context as saying, "We're all Keynesians now," his in-context statement is thoroughly consistent with an Austrian assessment. More than two decades ago, during an interview with a reporter from Time magazine, Friedman commented that "in one sense, we are all Keynesians now; in another, no one is a Keynesian any longer." The two senses were identified in his subsequent elaboration: "We all use the Keynesian language and apparatus; none of us any longer accepts the initial Keynesian conclusions" (Friedman 1968b, p. 15).




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 5:56:04 AM   
Sanity


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

FFS stupidity abounds today.

"The 2009 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. President Barack Obama "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples."


Right, because everyone with even a spark of intelligence is keenly aware that everyone on the planet loves us now, because of him.

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 6:05:31 AM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

1. analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity
2. achievements in the field of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy
3. pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena

"One of these [things] is not like the others,
One of these [things] doesn`t belong.
Can you tell which [thing] is not like the others
By the time [I] finish [my post]?"

Are you really weighing the technical merits of Nobel-laureate economists based on brief descriptions from I don't know where? Have you actually read any of these guys?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 6:25:20 AM   
RottenJohnny


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Neo-keynesian economic policies as practiced by Fed Chairman Bernacke have salvaged the banks and spurred a stock market rise to new highs. Hey, but don't let the facts confuse your propagnada.



I think Bernanke is just damned happy that anything has improved instead of finding himself hanging from a sour apple tree.

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"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 6:56:22 AM   
Yachtie


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Keynesian and neo-Keynesian are not synonymous. Krugman is of the neo sort.

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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 7:30:15 AM   
mnottertail


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ALL economists are Neo-stupid.   They do not have the math to back any of their asswipe.  It is all linear math.  When it is clear that economics is a dynamical system.   Once they are able to advance and check theories under dynamical math (like chaos math) then they are worth a slight listen.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 8:25:14 AM   
graceadieu


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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

I'm not an economist, so I can't assess how Krugman stacks up technically against Hayek or Friedman. What's your reason for feeling their stars burn brighter? At least, though, we're finally comparing apples to apples, which was the point of my post.
The idea that economists may disagree is surely not news to either of us.


1. analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity
2. achievements in the field of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy
3. pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena

"One of these [things] is not like the others,
One of these [things] doesn`t belong.
Can you tell which [thing] is not like the others
By the time [I] finish [my post]?"




Can you give us a detailed breakdown of what each of those works consist of? Because sometimes can be described simply, but are still complex and merit-worthy. Galileo figured out the earth went around the sun, which anyone can understand, but took a revolutionary genius to figure out.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 9:10:35 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Come on, Ken. You can do much better than that.


You were attacking Krugman for being a neo Keynesian so that must be what you meant since no economist would call themselves a classical Keynesian. Friedman supported neo Keynesian policies and had to admit that the Austrian approach was inadequate.

Friedman's theory on what happens when taxes are cut is very much not Austrian and very much neo Keynesian.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 11:16:44 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice
quote:

1. analysis of trade patterns and location of economic activity
2. achievements in the field of consumption analysis, monetary history and theory, and for his demonstration of the complexity of stabilisation policy
3. pioneering work in the theory of money and economic fluctuations and for penetrating analysis of the interdependence of economic, social and institutional phenomena
"One of these [things] is not like the others,
One of these [things] doesn`t belong.
Can you tell which [thing] is not like the others
By the time [I] finish [my post]?"

Are you really weighing the technical merits of Nobel-laureate economists based on brief descriptions from I don't know where? Have you actually read any of these guys?


From the Economic Nobel Laureate wiki. (Sorry. I forgot the link the first time I posted.)

Have only read The Krugster's op ed's and have read some Hayek and watched quite a few Friedman youtube vid's (the ones where he's on The Phil Donahue show are priceless... as are Phil's emoting reactions).

Do you disagree with anything that I've posted about those three? If not, then what does it matter where it came from? If you do disagree, then, disagree on the merits of what was said. That's one of the worst things that people tend to do on these boards. They don't like what was posted, so they attack the source instead of discrediting the message.

Personally, I don't care if someone, anyone, or everyone disagrees with what I post. I do care if all they do is attack me or the source, rather than the message.


_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 11:18:28 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Come on, Ken. You can do much better than that.

You were attacking Krugman for being a neo Keynesian so that must be what you meant since no economist would call themselves a classical Keynesian. Friedman supported neo Keynesian policies and had to admit that the Austrian approach was inadequate.
Friedman's theory on what happens when taxes are cut is very much not Austrian and very much neo Keynesian.


Yet, your "proof" of that was a quote taken out of context? You can do much better than that, Ken.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 2:53:52 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
FFS stupidity abounds today.
"The 2009 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. President Barack Obama "for his extraordinary efforts to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples."


Yet, he had done nothing but go on a tour. He continued the "peaceful" actions in Iraq, Afghanistan, and GITMO.

Now, that's real peace promotion!



Yeah...and we are historically, the most warring nation on the planet.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 2:56:09 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

Forgive me if Krugman's "merit" pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes (no comment on Myrdal; I have no idea of his beliefs).

I'm not an economist, so I can't assess how Krugman stacks up technically against Hayek or Friedman. What's your reason for feeling their stars burn brighter? At least, though, we're finally comparing apples to apples, which was the point of my post.

The idea that economists may disagree is surely not news to either of us.





Because history has proven their merit.

Krugman has no history.

Give the guy 30 years and maybe I'll ascribe to his theorems but until then....I'mmmmmmmm gonna go with what has worked so far.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Obamacare Shock - 5/31/2013 6:54:48 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Do you disagree with anything that I've posted about those three?


Yes.

You said, "Forgive me if Krugman's 'merit' pales in comparison to the merits of two of previous Nobel Laureates who did not agree with Keynes..."

You made a factual, technical assessment that you're not even remotely qualified to make. (I'm not eiher, for that matter.)

And playing the "Don't attack the messenger" card in this instance is--forgive the bluntness--downright laughable.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 40
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