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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 8:37:26 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

Illegals should be given a choice of that or deportation first time. Second time that or prison.

My point wasn't to derail the thread by bring illegal immigration into it. That's for another thread but, I'm thinking: "If we 'require' certain things of foreign-born, naturalized citizens, can we - maybe - 'require' things of native-born ones, as well?"

It's just an interesting point to ponder.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 6/1/2013 8:40:46 PM >

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 8:53:04 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

Then, what would the point be? You'll end up hitting those who can't afford to play the shell game on the hook for more than those who can afford to play the shell game. Wouldn't that be diametrically opposed to what you would want to happen?

For one thing, the shell game is going to come with one hell of an ante, and society will still reap the benefits of whatever those non-profits are doing. Yeah. It isn't fair that some people are born filthy rich, and will never face the struggles and challenges of the rest of us, but it pretty much is what it is. I don't think something like this is going to make a perfect world, just a better one.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:09:25 PM

TheHeretic

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Well, I did explain that there is no need for deferments, as you seem to be thinking of them, covered your hypothetical medical genius, and the disabilty question was too horribly constructed to bother with.

Governing bodies, and fitness review boards might make a good aspect for reasonable discussion, but I'm not sensing much interest for that in the post.

Perhaps you could explain why, given the wide variety of options to meet the requirement, you believe people seeking to avoid it entirely would be such an insurmountable obstacle?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:12:47 PM

TheHeretic

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Ever gotten a notice for jury duty, Michael?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:15:24 PM

jlf1961

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I agree with the idea. It makes sense, and personally, should be a requirement for the privilege of voting... but that is a bit extreme.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:25:26 PM

TheHeretic

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Thinking of the Starship Troopers model, Jlf?

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Post #: 106

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:30:52 PM

jlf1961

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Thinking of the Starship Troopers model, Jlf?

Kinda. But what I was actually thinking of is the opinion by many that they have no stake in what the government does. Voter turn out is getting lower, and let's face it, our local, state and federal governments are getting further out of touch with main stream Americans that there needs to be something to bring them back together.

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Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

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Post #: 107

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:45:31 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Ever gotten a notice for jury duty, Michael?

Yeah, served once. Got "automatic" deferments, two other times.

I get your meaning and I think we agree on the importance of such an idea. I think we just disagree on ways to implement it/penalties for scoff-laws.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 108

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 9:54:53 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

what I was actually thinking of is the opinion by many that they have no stake in what the government does. Voter turn out is getting lower, and let's face it, our local, state and federal governments are getting further out of touch with main stream Americans that there needs to be something to bring them back together.

Or that their stake in government is restricted entirely to personal self-interest, either in terms of goodies they can claim, or regulations, restrictions, and taxes they must comply with. Something like this not only gets the population personally connected to the running of our nation, but gives the old melting pot a stir as well.

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Post #: 109

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/1/2013 11:42:27 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Ever gotten a notice for jury duty, Michael?

Yeah, served once. Got "automatic" deferments, two other times.

I've been called six times, in the 15 years I've been living in CA, and sat through the case as an alternate once. I've shown up for selection every time, though I have appeared unshaven, unshowered, and wearing a Black Sabbath t-shirt, to make sure I'd be promptly excused a time or two.

For several years, I made the majority of my small annual income in the fall and early winter, and I travelled a lot in the summer. In the spring, I had time on my hands. Guess when the notices would arrive? I think we would get a more willing pool, if people were able to schedule the time windows when they might be called. I wonder what some of the states might have adopted in their systems, and what works well. Some places, I'm sure, will ultimately throw your ass in jail, if you blow off the summons too many times.

It is a civic duty, though, an obligation to serve when we are called. The scale is certainly different when it comes to the subject at hand, but the principle is the same.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/1/2013 11:44:14 PM >

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Post #: 110

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 12:07:15 AM

RottenJohnny

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny
Whether we approve of it or not, you should have the right to be a completely selfish, disconnected, ignorant, and/or useless individual if you want to be one.

And there is the root of why I think this is exactly what the country needs. We are a nation full of self-centered twits, who think citizenship is nothing but a big goodie bag of rights, with no responsibilities attached to any of it.

I'm sorry you have such a dim view of the general public but I don't agree with your assessment at all. The vast majority of people I know are hard working, responsible people who vote, pay taxes, and don't mind going the extra mile for those around them when circumstances call for it.

Forgive me but I guess I'm just disappointed that every time I come to the boards I find one person after another that thinks the solution to everything is to come up with another fucking government intervention in our personal lives. Republican or Democrat, it just doesn't seem to matter. There's just no intention of leaving the population alone to exercise the full measure of their freedom.

When you manage to get this implemented are you going to give us a nifty little red rulebook that we can run around waving in the air proclaiming the wisdom of all that's written in it?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:19:59 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Then, what would the point be? You'll end up hitting those who can't afford to play the shell game on the hook for more than those who can afford to play the shell game. Wouldn't that be diametrically opposed to what you would want to happen?

For one thing, the shell game is going to come with one hell of an ante, and society will still reap the benefits of whatever those non-profits are doing. Yeah. It isn't fair that some people are born filthy rich, and will never face the struggles and challenges of the rest of us, but it pretty much is what it is. I don't think something like this is going to make a perfect world, just a better one.

Rich, if the Country Club or Homeowner's Association (your two examples) can make up their own little nonprofit for the already advantaged, what makes you think those silverspoons will have to actually do anything to get their cards punched? These organizations for the rich elite will be made up by the rich elite, paid for by the rich elite, and will be ruled by the rich elite. I'd be much more supportive of a program that showed every kid the same basic thing. IMO, the ones that need it most (that is, will see the most benefit from the experience) are the repeat criminal offenders and the pampered "ruling class" kids.

There is a benefit to service, even when it's not monetary. The system being gamed is what I think will happen, and is in direct opposition to the whole point of some form of national service.

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Post #: 112

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:42:30 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I agree with the idea. It makes sense, and personally, should be a requirement for the privilege of voting... but that is a bit extreme.

Nowhere near as extreme as using exile and other forms of coercion or punishment to attempt to force people to serve each other. Lack of representation is a different beast from forced servitude. Also, I'm more partial to carrots than sticks, since carrots yield better humans than sticks do. Incentivizing with threats isn't a good way to build loyalty.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 12:08:52 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
Kinda. But what I was actually thinking of is the opinion by many that they have no stake in what the government does. Voter turn out is getting lower, and let's face it, our local, state and federal governments are getting further out of touch with main stream Americans that there needs to be something to bring them back together.

Agreed. So what you want to do is enslave me and my children to a puppet government?

OK, so now dialing that back a notch from the standard rhetoric levels... The problem here in my mind is that voter turn out is getting lower because voters aren't stupid. Even for me it's hard to understand why I would bother to vote and for whom. For my kids it's not even a question. The problem in my mind is that they are not my politicians and not my government and the voting that goes on is unrelated to issues I care about. Mostly it's a question of which set of jackals gets gnaw on the corpse. Is it any surprise that there's a lack of interest.

Further, if that's how YOU saw the US government, how would you feel about compulsory service to them? What would get ME more firmly invested in my country is a party to get behind. But given the nature of our two party system that seems impossible or implausible.

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Post #: 114

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 12:26:00 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

I'm sorry you have such a dim view of the general public but I don't agree with your assessment at all. The vast majority of people I know are hard working, responsible people who vote, pay taxes, and don't mind going the extra mile for those around them when circumstances call for it.

Forgive me but I guess I'm just disappointed that every time I come to the boards I find one person after another that thinks the solution to everything is to come up with another fucking government intervention in our personal lives. Republican or Democrat, it just doesn't seem to matter. There's just no intention of leaving the population alone to exercise the full measure of their freedom.

When you manage to get this implemented are you going to give us a nifty little red rulebook that we can run around waving in the air proclaiming the wisdom of all that's written in it?

My view of the population is come by honestly, and the attitude expressed above, that freedom comes without obligation, is exactly what I would like to see carved out with a red-hot spoon.

The goal is not to increase government, but to staff it better, make it something we have all played a role in at some point in our lives, something we are personally invested in. It's always easy for the libertarians to claim they want nothing from government, right up until they hit a pothole. Spend a summer patching some, and you'll have earned the right to bitch.

No. You won't get a little red book to wave around, but you will get a discharge form that says you are more than a parasite.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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Post #: 115

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 3:04:37 PM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Nowhere near as extreme as using exile and other forms of coercion or punishment to attempt to force people to serve each other. Lack of representation is a different beast from forced servitude. Also, I'm more partial to carrots than sticks, since carrots yield better humans than sticks do. Incentivizing with threats isn't a good way to build loyalty.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

I'm all for carrots, Aswad, and loads of flexibility in when, where, and how, such an obligation might be met, but at the end of the long road, it would be something people had to do.

As I said to begin with, nobody would ever be sent off to jail for failing to participate. Nobody is going to get dragged to the docks and deported either, but ultimately, finding themselves in a place where they cannot hold a driver's license, or a business/professional license, or even get that nice little rebate check for upgrading to better kitchen appliances, is going to amount to a stick.

We don't have a draft in the US, but we do have a requirement in place that 18 year old males must register, in case we ever need to bring it back. Refusing to fill out the little card won't land you in a cell, but it will follow you around forever.

Yes. We could put in an ideological objector exemption category with no penalties, but then where does that lead us for the rest of our societal obligations? You don't have to report for a jury summons? Pay taxes? Register your car? Does it extend into the coercive laws governing daily life?

Nope. Sorry. Either people meet the requirement through one of the many paths available, or the stick will just keep on stinging.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

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Post #: 116

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 3:20:02 PM

Powergamz1

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And of course we can just handwave away the Constitution on things like denying a business license to someone at age 50 because they chose not to perform involuntary servitude at 18.

I mean after all, isn't the entire purpose of having a society to force people at 18 into decisions that will put them into different castes for the rest of their lives?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 3:29:26 PM

TheHeretic

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And here I was thinking I was done typing, "run along, RML."

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Post #: 118

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 3:33:40 PM

Powergamz1

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If you can't defend your eugenics plan with adult discourse, then why post it where you know people are going to point out the problems with it?

There are plenty of other websites where this sort of social engineering would be preaching to the choir.

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Post #: 119

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 3:43:45 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
As I said to begin with, nobody would ever be sent off to jail for failing to participate. Nobody is going to get dragged to the docks and deported either, but ultimately, finding themselves in a place where they cannot hold a driver's license, or a business/professional license, or even get that nice little rebate check for upgrading to better kitchen appliances, is going to amount to a stick.

OK, so in your own words you would not jail someone for failing to participate (eg: you would not remove their physical liberty). Nor would you revoke their welcome on our shores. You would, however, impoverish and enslave them? If you take a person and remove their ability to gainfully hold employment (business license) and/or mobility (driver's license) what exactly do you think you have created? I got two answers for you.

A) enslaved good people
B) free bad people (criminals).

I don't like either answer. I'd be more inclined to put a bullet through the head of non-participants than do what you propose. At least that's honest and above-board. I get what you're saying about the societal need for "the stick" and how you cannot have a society if people can selectively choose to opt-in and opt-out. I agree. It's just with the current status of the world political stage and the US national political stage I view "mandatory service to the US government as rather horrific". Just as Aswad, I might well prefer to simply go rogue and become a criminal than become enslaved by my own "free will". The sad part here is that I agree with the premise that we need people participating more in government and being more invested in it. I just think The People need to be doing that from a position of strength rather than servitude.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 120

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