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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:02:07 PM

BitaTruble

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From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The sad part here is that I agree with the premise that we need people participating more in government and being more invested in it. I just think The People need to be doing that from a position of strength rather than servitude.

The whole thing is just a bad idea past its prime and a bureaucratic nightmare to boot. It would be cheaper and easier to make voting mandatory and just include a "None of the above" option on every ballot. If none of the above wins then we do a run-off election and put all candidates who got any primary votes on the ballot, take off the none-of-the-above option and whoever gets the most votes wins.

Maybe that sounds too simple.. but then I'm a simple girl who likes to KISS.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 121

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:09:32 PM

Phydeaux

Posts: 4828
Joined: 1/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

At the link is an article from General Stanley McCrystal, calling for a system of universal national service. I like the idea. It's something that goes far beyond the bounds of drafting people into the Army. In the vision I have, our military would still be composed of people who choose to enter the armed forces, instead of serving in another capacity.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324809804578511220613299186.html

He wraps up with this (my bold)

quote:

Universal national service would surely face obstacles. But America is too big, and our challenges too expansive, for small ideas. To help stem the high-school dropout crisis, to conserve rivers and parks, to prepare for and respond to disasters, to fight poverty and, perhaps most important, to instill in all Americans a sense of civic duty, the nation needs all its young people to serve.

Whatever the details of a specific plan, the objective must be a cultural shift that makes service an expected rite of citizenship.

Thoughts?

Worst. Idea. Ever.

The founding fathers had a mistrust of government and so sought to constrain it, both in size and scope.

The problem with 'instilling" a sense of civic duty is that the idea of civic duty greatly depends on who is in power.

And the power to instill is the power to compel.

Rather than instill a sense of civic duty - I would rather each man, each woman to seek to go after their best interests as minimally constrained by the law as possible. Each person - doing what they do best becomes the best diversity.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 122

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:24:28 PM

BamaD

Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
The sad part here is that I agree with the premise that we need people participating more in government and being more invested in it. I just think The People need to be doing that from a position of strength rather than servitude.

The whole thing is just a bad idea past its prime and a bureaucratic nightmare to boot. It would be cheaper and easier to make voting mandatory and just include a "None of the above" option on every ballot. If none of the above wins then we do a run-off election and put all candidates who got any primary votes on the ballot, take off the none-of-the-above option and whoever gets the most votes wins.

Maybe that sounds too simple.. but then I'm a simple girl who likes to KISS.

We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 123

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:35:37 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

Increase it how? Since campaigners won't need to spend their resources on 'getting out the voters' they can spend their dollars 'getting out the message' making for a more informed populace. With a none-of-the-above option, they better make sure the message is received the first time or then the candidates are faced with the political version of a Royal Cage match.

Think of how much fun the cycles would be then!

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 124

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:38:11 PM

JeffBC

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Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

*chuckles* Pardon me while I get out my tinfoil hat...

So is it your thought that hardly anyone in America "has a clue"? If so, then who the fuck is voting for the Republicans and Democrats? I mean seriously, by definition the 1% is only 1% of the vote. I'd say that almost the entire rest of the 99% "hasn't got a clue".

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 125

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:47:37 PM

BamaD

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

Increase it how? Since campaigners won't need to spend their resources on 'getting out the voters' they can spend their dollars 'getting out the message' making for a more informed populace. With a none-of-the-above option, they better make sure the message is received the first time or then the candidates are faced with the political version of a Royal Cage match.

Think of how much fun the cycles would be then!

The don't know because they don't pay attention.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 126

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 4:49:50 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

*chuckles* Pardon me while I get out my tinfoil hat...

So is it your thought that hardly anyone in America "has a clue"? If so, then who the fuck is voting for the Republicans and Democrats? I mean seriously, by definition the 1% is only 1% of the vote. I'd say that almost the entire rest of the 99% "hasn't got a clue".

I said too many not almost no one maybe you should get out reading glasses instead of your tinfoil hat.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 127

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 5:14:59 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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*laughs* My apologies. You misunderstood. I meant MY tinfoil hat because I'm a card carrying conspiracy theorist not the tinfoil hat I thought you ought to be wearing.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to BamaD)

Post #: 128

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 5:25:14 PM

BamaD

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Joined: 2/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

*laughs* My apologies. You misunderstood. I meant MY tinfoil hat because I'm a card carrying conspiracy theorist not the tinfoil hat I thought you ought to be wearing.

Sorry for the snarky response as you say I misunderstood.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 129

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 5:25:17 PM

DesideriScuri

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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD
We have too many people voting without having a clue, this would just increase that problem.

Increase it how? Since campaigners won't need to spend their resources on 'getting out the voters' they can spend their dollars 'getting out the message' making for a more informed populace. With a none-of-the-above option, they better make sure the message is received the first time or then the candidates are faced with the political version of a Royal Cage match.
Think of how much fun the cycles would be then!

Are you going to also mandate every voter pays attention, too? Do you think the people who aren't voting are the ones paying attention?

_____________________________

What I support:

A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
Personal Responsibility
Help for the truly needy
Limited Government
Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 130

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 5:29:53 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Do you think the people who aren't voting are the ones paying attention?

Wow! Now there's an interesting point and I probably agree with it. Honestly the only thing that makes me vote nowadays is some mistaken sense of forlorn hope that possibly one of the two parties might want to become a people's party again. My sons don't have that hope so they don't vote. I think they understand American politics better than I do or else I'm simply running on autopilot.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 131

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 9:23:57 PM

FatDomDaddy

Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline

FR...

OK... so... lead me from my disconnect...

We should force these High School Dropouts to clean trash in National Parks but we should not force them to work at fast food joints or big box stores or grocery stores?

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 132

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 9:37:23 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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Impoverish and enslave, Jeff? Seriously? Suspending state licenses is the routine for people who get behind on their child support in California. It's a very good way to get someone's attention. They get with the office, they get the payment plan worked out. The goal would be the same here. Get them in, to get it squared. Granting, getting the ticket punched after 10 years or so of giving the rest of us the finger is going to be more along the lines of community service ordered by judge for a first offense drunk driver, than a paid summer job with the local parks and rec department.

If someone doesn't want to be in service to the feds, no problemo. There are a hell of a lot more government jobs at the state, county, municipal, and community service district levels, than at the federal anyway. There are a universe of non-profit agencies (some of which pay pretty well, btw).

Government of the people, by the people, for the people. It takes a little bit of participation and personal investment, to keep that working.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 133

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 9:44:06 PM

Powergamz1

Posts: 1927
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Routine *after due process*, not because of their status being checked off on a box somewhere.

And why stop with business or driver's licenses? I mean if we don't care that their spouse is an invalid who needs them for transportation, why not deny them marriage licenses, voter registration, emergency room treatment, etc?

All this plan does is create a disenfranchised underclass by a process that is explicitly forbidden by the Constitution.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Impoverish and enslave, Jeff? Seriously? Suspending state licenses is the routine for people who get behind on their child support in California. It's a very good way to get someone's attention. They get with the office, they get the payment plan worked out. The goal would be the same here. Get them in, to get it squared. Granting, getting the ticket punched after 10 years or so of giving the rest of us the finger is going to be more along the lines of community service ordered by judge for a first offense drunk driver, than a paid summer job with the local parks and rec department.

If someone doesn't want to be in service to the feds, no problemo. There are a hell of a lot more government jobs at the state, county, municipal, and community service district levels, than at the federal anyway. There are a universe of non-profit agencies (some of which pay pretty well, btw).

Government of the people, by the people, for the people. It takes a little bit of participation and personal investment, to keep that working.

_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 134

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 9:56:51 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Impoverish and enslave, Jeff? Seriously?

Yes, seriously and with as little tinfoil as I can manage. Out of curiosity, when they suspend someone's state license for failure to pay child support doesn't that person then suffer additional problems paying child support -- having no income and all? That seems rather stupidly counterproductive to me.

Insofar as "enslaved"... when you tell me that I must serve someone else then yes, I think that's a pretty neat word for it. The whole problem is I don't recognize the current US govt as legitimate or "my government". I see them about like I suppose the founding fathers saw the king of England. Imagine trying to sell them on this concept and you can imagine the trouble you're having with me. And why not? It might have worked for them too, right? They could have tried the "win from the inside" theory.

Your suggesting this as a transitional thing and I'm suggesting that compulsory service is only not slavery when it's ALREADY a govt of the people. That's not what we have here.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 135

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:07:18 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

What do you do, when you get a summons for jury duty, Jeff?

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 136

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:15:04 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Let's put this on the table, Jeff, to give you something on the notion that is ALREADY a government of the people (I put on my own tin foil hat for this one).

When I originally tossed this idea into the ring a few years ago, the article at the link was the starting place. Interesting read.

http://reason.com/archives/2010/01/12/class-war/singlepage

Just noticed this - now that the article has been archived, you have to provide one answer to the annoying marketing survey.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/2/2013 10:17:41 PM >

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 137

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:50:25 PM

JeffBC

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
What do you do, when you get a summons for jury duty, Jeff?

Haven't gotten one in Canada but since Canada is very clearly my own chosen government it'd be kind of silly of me to claim it as "not mine". I'd go.

In the states I tried to go to every single one. Lawyers don't like engineers on juries. I never got selected. This was back when I saw the judicial system as at least trying to serve up justice. I'm not sure what I'd do now... probably abstain in some way. I'm pretty sure that telling the judge/lawyers how I actually saw the US govt and it's judicial system would be good enough to get me excused... and it ought to be.

Insofar as your article I'm left clueless how it relates. I got bored when it started droning on about public pensions. I've read all the one-sided bullshit from both sides before so I didn't have any need to reread the heritage foundations rant on this shit. Insofar as selling me that we have a govt "of the people" I'm afraid that ship has already sailed. Surely, by now, it's pretty obvious that it's a govt of the corporations. Surely that is no longer tinfoil hat territory?

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 138

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:50:41 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I meant MY tinfoil hat because I'm a card carrying conspiracy theorist not the tinfoil hat I thought you ought to be wearing.

were you a card carrying conspiracy theorist before you moved to Canada? or is that what Canada did ta ya???

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 139

RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/2/2013 10:56:22 PM

JeffBC

Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
were you a card carrying conspiracy theorist before you moved to Canada? or is that what Canada did ta ya???

Southpark went to all the trouble to make a whole song about blaming Canada. So in the interests of honoring their creative work yeah, I'm going with "It's Canada's fault."

Of course, it's also possible that actual shenanigans of Bush then Obama had something to do with it.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/2/2013 10:57:22 PM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 140

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