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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 2:04:06 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Political labels like 'democracy', 'republic', 'libertarian' 'socialism' etc. are usually clear cut.

And usually have not so much to do with political parties co-opting the word to make a fine sounding name.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
As a card-carrying Libertarian for almost 20 years, I can tell you that that is not the position of the party, at all.

For the record I recently tried to research what the hell "libertarianism" was exactly. I was unable to walk away with a clear answer except for in the US the libertarian party had been infected by Ayn Rand & Co so I'm fairly certain that whatever it is the US LIbertarian Party is about it's nothing that I approve of. The political label "libertarianism" is confusing as hell.



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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 3:18:35 PM   
PeonForHer


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Status: offline 		FR

One of the common complaints about national service in my country, the UK, was that it was ageist at the core. Oldies got to decree what was and was not 'good citizenship'. Thus the oldies complained of the ill manners and lack of social awareness amongst the youth. The youth, on the other hand, pointed out that it was somewhat ill-mannered, selfish and socially unaware of the oldies to be chock-full of prejudices, not to control economies well enough to prevent depressions, and to start world wars.

If national service is to be promoted in any given society, then I see no good reason why everyone, of any class and any age, be considered for it. 'You're never too old to learn new things', as we're always being told. Or, at least, that's what I love saying to the occasional smug, paunchy old Tory coffin-dodger here when I hear the old 'bring back national service' line being resurrected for the millionth time since the institution was dumped in 1960 (in major part because it was becoming too costly).

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 6/3/2013 3:19:56 PM >

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 4:09:20 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Noam Chomsky has an interesting commentary:

quote:

Chomsky: Well what’s called libertarian in the United States, which is a special U. S. phenomenon, it doesn’t really exist anywhere else — a little bit in England — permits a very high level of authority and domination but in the hands of private power: so private power should be unleashed to do whatever it likes. The assumption is that by some kind of magic, concentrated private power will lead to a more free and just society...


http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/noam-chomsky-kind-anarchism-i-believe-and-whats-wrong-libertarians

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

<SNIP>

What you will hear a good Libertarian claim is: "Liberty is opposed to constraints. The bigger the government, the more constraints.". We're not anarchists. I want the government to provide a common defense (an army, when we need one). I want the government to promote the general welfare. <SNIP>

...Once again; Libertarians don't "want nothing from the government" we want the government to mind its place and not continue the invasive maneuvers into our lives.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 5:57:49 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

If the people who are already paid big bucks for working for government (and have fat juicy pensions waiting for them) don't feel any sense of dedication to public service, why should anyone else?



The way I look at a lot of government employees is that they have forgotten who they work for. Besides replacing a lot of the entry level, low skill positions with young people doing their national service obligation, I'd also replace the whole notion of career employment with 4 or 5 year contracts, and only the best of the bunch would have those contracts renewed.



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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 6:13:43 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

If the people who are already paid big bucks for working for government (and have fat juicy pensions waiting for them) don't feel any sense of dedication to public service, why should anyone else?



The way I look at a lot of government employees is that they have forgotten who they work for.


Who do you think they work for?


quote:

Besides replacing a lot of the entry level, low skill positions with young people doing their national service obligation,


Fire all of those who are currently employed and replace them with slave labor...In my country that is illegal.


quote:

I'd also replace the whole notion of career employment with 4 or 5 year contracts, and only the best of the bunch would have those contracts renewed.about how


A history book written for someone beyond the fifth grade could be helpful here. The part about the how and why of civil service and why the concept of 4 or 5 year contracts was one of the very reasons why we dont do that any more.




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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 6:49:46 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'd also replace the whole notion of career employment with 4 or 5 year contracts, and only the best of the bunch would have those contracts renewed.


So, essentially, put me out of touch with my field for 4-5 years of effectively forced labor, requiring at least 1-2 years to catch up afterwards and probably more, so I can use my abilities to push papers in a system that has adapted to the idea that I'm just passing through and which retains only those that didn't give a shit, promoting those to the positions which lay out the system I'm supposed to adhere to in that period?

That would cost you at least 30 million dollars at the start of my career, not counting my reaction to it, along with total loss of any allegiance I might previously have held to the community. Voluntarily, I've put in- conservatively- five man years of unpaid service by now, at thirty years of age, not counting the mentoring of other professionals that have gone on to contribute significantly to major projects, or free consulting on some of those projects, neither of which would be possible with a huge gap in my growth as a professional polymath. Throw in saving one life through direct intervention in armed homicide, one through first responder action with noone else available, and some other stuff where others might have picked up the slack.

Under 10% of workers create over 90% of the value, and it's usually not the wealthiest ten percent of the population.

But, let's just go back to those 30 million dollars again, and cut all the concerns, save for one:

How much do you really want to "pay" me to push those papers of yours?

IWYW,
— Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 6/3/2013 6:51:13 PM >

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 7:38:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I know we are in much disagreement on this thread, Aswad, but let's not do it on misunderstandings.

The 4 or 5 year contracts would be for people working in government positions through the normal hiring processes. A service corps enlistee might be out earning his pay operating the machine that cuts the grass on the roadway median, with another driving the truck with the "workmen ahead," sign, but the mechanics who maintain those machines are skilled labor, and regular employees of the state/county/city. Those are the people who would be hired on a contract basis, with the contract subject to renewal for people who are worth keeping.

I haven't seen any recent averages for the number of times a typical private sector employee will change jobs and/or careers over his/her working life, but the whole idea that you get a job right out of school, and work there until you retire on your pension is long gone, outside of government employ. People move around, and do different things

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 6/3/2013 7:39:55 PM >

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 7:43:31 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		The whole purpose of making civil service a career position was to get rid of the bad old days of partisan patronage, and you want to bring that back?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:06:26 PM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

you bring up some interesting points..
Yes, I know most people are stuck here, and that is why they need to do whatever it takes to make better changes to govt.. given how your politics is set up, you pretty much need a military coup type of revolution to get rid of the corrupt politicians (which means 98% of em) and enact a new, fairer system that is much harder for corps & 1%ers to hijack.. OWS failed, massively.. without the military & police on your side (instead of armed & against you), you are screwed.. I know that sounds sorta radical to some.. But few Americans have the stomach for that so unfortunately ya'll will end up limping along with the corruption & political deadlock you have now..


I think the reason OWS failed is because there was too much diffusion of ideas, with too many people with their own pet causes and no real unity or solidarity behind a single cause. That's the main problem with politics today. In order to bring about any real change (without bringing the military or police), enough people in this country have to get behind a single cause, but the people are divided against each other as much as anything else, even those within the same faction/party. That seems to be the main reason both OWS and the Tea Party have failed.

I'm not sure if it's that Americans lack the stomach for any kind of political activism, but I also think that Americans have a short attention span and a short memory. People nowadays are fickle and easily bored by anything serious or meaningful. They want to be entertained. Of course, if the corruption and political deadlock continue unabated, then the system will eventually collapse on itself. The ensuing chaos will be anything but boring, so at least we have that to look forward to in our twilight years.


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:07:27 PM   
Zonie63


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From: The Old Pueblo
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The whole purpose of making civil service a career position was to get rid of the bad old days of partisan patronage, and you want to bring that back?



Bring it back? Did it ever go away?

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:08:58 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I know we are in much disagreement on this thread, Aswad, but let's not do it on misunderstandings.


Agreed. I misunderstood your intentions. Mea culpa.

Incidentally, just so we're clear, there's no disagreement on what you're trying to accomplish (a society people care about; some social homogenization and bonding of the population; improvement of public management and public services; etc.), only disagreement on the means that you should use to accomplish those goals.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:10:50 PM   
LanceHughes


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Joined: 2/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: theresthavegonew
I was just curios, has anyone in this discussion participated in non military national service?

Late to the thread - didn't read any (yet.)

YES! Peace Corps Volunteer. And it made me a supporter of "a national service obligation" (as the thread title asks.)


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:14:17 PM   
LanceHughes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Heya, Rich! Thank you for posting this (Boy, are we gonna disagree!)
There's is no doubt in my mind that just about everyone (I guess sociopaths would be excluded) can benefit from some form of service. I believe that just about all people would benefit from some "humble pie" being on their menu and one of the best paths to humility is through selfless service.

We agree on that.

My issue is with it being compulsory. You know how I feel about the federal government to begin with but, beyond that; I'm a libertarian and I don't think that compulsory service is the answer.

If need be, I will tell a personal story, later but, I want to see how the thread drifts. Suffice it to say that I do think we need to find a way to encourage people into national service.

Again, I think national service is a good idea; I just shudder at it being compulsory.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Peace Corps carries NONE of the benefits of being a Veteran. And boy, oh boy, at this point in my life, do I wish I were a (Viet Nam) veteran.

So, I'm suggesting that Peace Corps and VISTA (domestic Peace corp - sorta, kinda) receive same benefits in kind.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 6/3/2013 8:16:33 PM >

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:25:03 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I'd also replace the whole notion of career employment with 4 or 5 year contracts, and only the best of the bunch would have those contracts renewed.


So, essentially, put me out of touch with my field for 4-5 years of effectively forced labor, requiring at least 1-2 years to catch up afterwards and probably more, so I can use my abilities to push papers in a system that has adapted to the idea that I'm just passing through and which retains only those that didn't give a shit, promoting those to the positions which lay out the system I'm supposed to adhere to in that period?

That would cost you at least 30 million dollars at the start of my career, not counting my reaction to it, along with total loss of any allegiance I might previously have held to the community. Voluntarily, I've put in- conservatively- five man years of unpaid service by now, at thirty years of age, not counting the mentoring of other professionals that have gone on to contribute significantly to major projects, or free consulting on some of those projects, neither of which would be possible with a huge gap in my growth as a professional polymath. Throw in saving one life through direct intervention in armed homicide, one through first responder action with noone else available, and some other stuff where others might have picked up the slack.

Under 10% of workers create over 90% of the value, and it's usually not the wealthiest ten percent of the population.

But, let's just go back to those 30 million dollars again, and cut all the concerns, save for one:

How much do you really want to "pay" me to push those papers of yours?

IWYW,
— Aswad.



There are a lot of folks who`s inadequacies cause them to blame gov.,gays,Mexicans,etc for their problems and/or want to shit on other Americans, just to feel better about themselves....

We call them republicans....

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:28:03 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		Until the Pendleton reforms, people could legally and openly walk in with a pile of money, and buy a job as a federal agent, or a commissioner, or an officer in the Army, so yeah, there's a great deal of difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63

quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

The whole purpose of making civil service a career position was to get rid of the bad old days of partisan patronage, and you want to bring that back?



Bring it back? Did it ever go away?



_____________________________

"DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment" Anthony McLeod Kennedy

" About damn time...wooot!!' Me

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 8:44:49 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr
Heya, Rich! Thank you for posting this (Boy, are we gonna disagree!)
There's is no doubt in my mind that just about everyone (I guess sociopaths would be excluded) can benefit from some form of service. I believe that just about all people would benefit from some "humble pie" being on their menu and one of the best paths to humility is through selfless service.

We agree on that.

My issue is with it being compulsory. You know how I feel about the federal government to begin with but, beyond that; I'm a libertarian and I don't think that compulsory service is the answer.

If need be, I will tell a personal story, later but, I want to see how the thread drifts. Suffice it to say that I do think we need to find a way to encourage people into national service.

Again, I think national service is a good idea; I just shudder at it being compulsory.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

Peace Corps carries NONE of the benefits of being a Veteran. And boy, oh boy, at this point in my life, do I wish I were a (Viet Nam) veteran.

So, I'm suggesting that Peace Corps and VISTA (domestic Peace corp - sorta, kinda) receive same benefits in kind.


Because of a very random confluence of events, for VGLI purposes, I am a Vietnam Era Vet.

As I said in a couple of earlier posts, I really think we need to find a way to make people want to do some national service. I'm more for the carrot than the stick. Let me be even more clear: I vehemently oppose almost all versions of the stick, actually.

I have had the idea of a "peace Corps-type" program, here for almost 30 years. I think it could work and I think the country could benefit in any number of ways.

I am 17 and I want to be a nuclear engineer. All the "good" schools have accepted me but my money doesn't quite stretch that far. I sign up with some ... agency ... even the military or whatever. They pay for X amount of my Masters degree at MIT (or Harvard or wherever).

Once I graduate, I must serve for X amount of time as a nuclear engineer (R&D, actual practice, whatever), living in a "barracks", getting my meals for free, and maybe some pocket change.

If I'm good enough, when my service time is up, whoever I work for (who gave me my OJT and knows how well I've performed) offers me a job at a salary that would be competetive with the private sector. Alternately, I am free to entertain offers from wherever I like.

I have received training and I have served, in return.

The military already does this (or did) with doctors and lawyers (at least by way of ROTC programs). I don't see why it can't be expanded.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 9:02:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		~fr~

Around these parts, we have both military service and civil service.

Both offer additional credits for university intake, for instance, along with various other benefits, though military service offers more extensive credits and civil service seems to have been devised to discourage people from choosing it as an alternative to military service. If you become an officer, that will net you further advantages, including the option of completing your education in the military with no study loans. More demanding careers have other incentives (e.g. if you make the cut, the starting wage for a Lieutenant with the HJK ranger commandos is about $120.000/year).

Half of the highly skilled people I know have gone through the immense hassle of getting out of it, usually on account of objecting to the fact that 12 months of forced service amounts to slavery in their books, no matter how benign a flavor of slavery it might be. Several of those have expressed a desire to serve, if it's ever changed to a voluntary arrangement, and all but one have been quite interested in the incentives. I think those incentives would be sufficient without the force.

IWYW,
— Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 10:04:52 PM   
Powergamz1


Posts: 1927
Joined: 9/3/2011
Status: offline 		20/20/20 does not entitle anyone to make the claim 'I am a Vietnam Era Vet'.

180 or more days of active honorable active service is the qualifier.



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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/3/2013 10:16:15 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm not sure if it's that Americans lack the stomach for any kind of political activism, but I also think that Americans have a short attention span and a short memory. People nowadays are fickle and easily bored by anything serious or meaningful. They want to be entertained. Of course, if the corruption and political deadlock continue unabated, then the system will eventually collapse on itself. The ensuing chaos will be anything but boring, so at least we have that to look forward to in our twilight years.

just like some people predicted the mortgage & housing crash & made money from that debacle, some will make money from the future chaos/crash that I think is also inevitable.. I guess it depends on which side of that a person prefers to be on..

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RE: A National Service Obligation? - 6/4/2013 7:21:44 AM   
Zonie63


Posts: 2826
Joined: 4/25/2011
From: The Old Pueblo
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Powergamz1

Until the Pendleton reforms, people could legally and openly walk in with a pile of money, and buy a job as a federal agent, or a commissioner, or an officer in the Army, so yeah, there's a great deal of difference.



That may be so, but in practice, I don't see a heck of a lot of difference nowadays. There's still corruption in the system, as anyone can be bribed.

Besides, I recall that the Pendleton reforms were supposed to ensure that hiring and promotion to civil service jobs were based on merit, yet that hardly seems to be the case nowadays. Even setting aside the corruption, there are also seems a great deal of incompetence and waste in government, making me wonder about how much "merit" our Federal employees actually have. I'm judging them by the results of their work, not what they think they are on paper.

Maybe it's time for some new reforms. I don't think it would mean that we'd be going back to the bad old days, not from The Heretic's suggestion anyway. I don't see how limiting their service to 4-5 year contracts would entail people coming in with bags of money to buy a civil service job. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. People who have worked in government all their lives and have no conception of what it means to work in the private sector are out of touch with the society and people they're supposed to be serving. I can't see how an insular, out-of-touch bureaucracy is any better than before.

At least under the spoils system, people got what they elected. That is, if the civil service appointees have the same political views as the elected politicians, then the people are still getting the politics they voted for. If they do an unsatisfactory job, then the politicians get voted out, and all their appointees go, too. It may have been an imperfect system, but what system is perfect?

Without that, then guys like J. Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles were able to gain a great deal of power, rivaling that of any President they served under. The entrenched bureaucrats-for-life and the military-industrial complex became such a powerful behemoth that even Presidents could hardly keep it under control (JFK tried, but look what happened to him). Those were the real "bad old days," and it hasn't really changed that much.



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