quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US.

A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth.

To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

During the American Civil War, Jefferson Davis (the Confederate president) commuted every death sentence imposed on Confederate soldiers found guilty of desertion. He said that the worst use of a soldier was to execute him. That thought stays at the back of my mind when any soldier is found guilty of a crime. Nevertheless, I find myself teetering back and forth over whether or not the death sentence should be imposed here even though I find this crime particularly vile.

quote:


I don't think it's wrong for the families to want to see the death penalty imposed. If I were in their shoes I'd demand the same thing. And even if they have accepted money for their dead relatives that doesn't save this soldier from us imposing the death sentence anyway.

quote:


If it is imposed I don't think it will amount to much in either country long-term. Some Afghan families may feel they've gotten their justice and some may even dance in the streets but I think any grand elation would fade quickly. If it's not imposed then those families who have accepted money (assuming this is indeed their custom) have no right to vengeance. IMO, the concept of vengeance is not an acceptable form of justice in this day and age. However, I will admit that there have been cases where it seems the only form of justice that could be found was through vengeance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US.

A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth.

To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base

Ok, I see, yes.

However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

No it would not make a difference if this had happened in the US.

A long time ago, the mid 1980's, I was in "A" school at Great Lakes when a young man originally from Pakistan, who had just flunked out of the school, went on a rampage with a gun and a knife in the school. He killed 1 and grievously wounded several others. It was clearly premeditated, weapons were not allowed in barracks and his room had been inspected less than a month before. He got life in Leavenworth.

To say the bulk of the sailors on the base wanted him to die is an understatement.. But he plead guilty and got life just like this guy.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base

Ok, I see, yes.

However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on?

quote:

Should the relatives have their demand accepted?

Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced?

What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference?

What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively?

Is vengeance ok?

Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment?

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed.

If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

Ok, I see, yes.

However, this person is a soldier - is it not more important to keep people who are armed under stricter discipline? Soldier, police and so on?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed.

If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented.

Honest question: Are they juicing themselves or are they being juiced by someone?

Assuming the former, I find it no different than a drunk driver (I spoke about this on a drug legalization thread, somewhere). If Bales made a choice to juice up, I have no sympathy for him.

Now, on to the meat of the matter:

Saying this is awful is an understatement. I wish there was some inkling that this was a colateral damage in a sanctioned action situation but, it appears that that's not even close to possible.

Bales went on a rampage and killed women and children in cold blood. Nothing that happened here was "war related". As such, he should be treated as a civillian, regarding this matter.

Americans that are travelling are subject to the laws of the country they're in. As much as it pains me to see a soldier go down this road, he wasn't acting as a soldier. He does not enjoy the protection of "I was following orders". He should be executed.

All of this is null and void if it turns out someone else juiced him up without his knowledge.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

From the article I read, Michael, there is considerable in country peer pressure and situational pressure to juice. Furthermore, Bales had a history of mental distress before he was sent on this second (?) tour. To say that Bales went on a rampage (i agree he did) begs the question of what caused that rampage. He had no prior history of violence I don't think. Promoted to monster in the field if you get my drift.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Should the relatives have their demand accepted?

Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced?

What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference?

What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively?

Is vengeance ok?

Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment?

No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed.

If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented.

quote:

ORIGINAL: egern

quote:

ORIGINAL: RottenJohnny

During the American Civil War, Jefferson Davis (the Confederate president) commuted every death sentence imposed on Confederate soldiers found guilty of desertion. He said that the worst use of a soldier was to execute him. That thought stays at the back of my mind when any soldier is found guilty of a crime. Nevertheless, I find myself teetering back and forth over whether or not the death sentence should be imposed here even though I find this crime particularly vile.

Hm, desertion is something else, though, I think..

But yes, this crime is vile, and I wonder what vile circumstances promted that behaviour.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Should the relatives have their demand accepted?

Is it right or wrong for them to seek private vengeance, if the death sentence is not pronounced?

What if this had happened in US, would it make a difference?

What impact would a death sentence have in Afghanistan, and in the US, respectively?

Is vengeance ok?

Is vengeance the same as justice or punishment?

No question that Bales committed an atrocity . . several atrocities. However, there is more to the story than reported here. Bales defense is that he was juiced on steroids. It is further reported that steroid juicing of American troops in Afghanistan is common. THAT is the real atrocity left undiscussed.

If Bales was a 'juice monster' than there is an issue of diminished capacity and retribution is not warrented.

I also read that he had gotten some rot-gut alcohol and snorted a crushed up valium before going out.


There are a lot of mitigating circumstances in this case.....as well as the long list of victims.


This unfortunately is going to happen when an army invades another country. It`s not a matter of if but when and how much.


This is also one of the main reasons to make invasion the very very very LAST thing to do, when it comes to our security and what that costs us and our "hosts".