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MS gov says "education declined with women enterin... - 6/5/2013 4:34:52 AM   
TNDommeK


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Status: offline 		Ok guys and dolls...I hardly come down here, but I have a good topic.
So the gov. Of Mississippi went to Washington and made a statement on tv saying the decline of education started with women entering the work force.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130604/mississippi-gov-phil-bryant-education-issues-began-when-moms-j

I hope this link worked.

So my thoughts are this....I don't think he was saying women should be making sammiches in the kitchen. But I do feel he has a point. I think with today's schools not discipling children anymore, and teaching the minimum requirement, there's no way children can learn what they should, or could be from a parent. I'm not saying its impossible, but harder to teach kids values and such if they are always being stuck with the nanny or at day care or never seeing mom or dad bc they are working. Back in the day of stay at home moms, there was a higher number of people who were successful and finished school than there are today.

I'm thinking things were taken farther out of context than should have been and I'm thinking the truth probably pissed some people off.

By the way, I'm all for women working and making the same amount as men and all that stuff. But, I feel that if you want your child raised right, there are ways to do it.






< Message edited by TNDommeK -- 6/5/2013 4:40:08 AM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 6:11:37 AM   
Charles6682


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Status: offline 		Don't forget, you do have "stay at home" father's these day's too.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 7:48:40 AM   
JeffBC


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Status: offline 		I don't think there is any doubt that America's two-earner family structure is... uh .... less than optimal for making a family and raising children. I've always wondered why the party of "family values" wasn't arguing hotly to raise minimum wage.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 9:05:31 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
the decline of education

the decline in education is cuz the govt considers education "discretionary" & it gets cut along with other "services" taxpayers think they are paying taxes for.. the dude even admits this- "Bryant also noted the lack of investment in US schools had adversely affected educational outcomes."

listen to this interview about how your States decide who gets money (less going to local govt), and who benefits (pensions, etc).. this is one of the few books that actually make me want to go out and buy it (rather than read at the library)..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4KDyqfk8Yo

eta- where the heck is Owner? shouldnt he be posting here about its all the Repub's/GOP's fault & to stop blaming women?

< Message edited by tj444 -- 6/5/2013 9:07:35 AM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 9:20:53 AM   
cordeliasub


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quote:

I think with today's schools not discipling children anymore, and teaching the minimum requirement,


As a teacher, I agree that these two factors are very frustrating.

We cannot discipline children anymore, at least not with any effectiveness. No more writing names on the board or using red pens because it will damage poor Suzie's self-esteem. No more time-outs because we are embarrassing and ostracizing them. We have almost no tools that we can use to deal with challenges in discipline, and I only taught elementary school. I can't imagine what it must be like for high school teachers.

And as far as teaching the minimum...thank two things for that: high stakes testing where we base everything on how well a group of kids sit for several hours a day for four or five days in the spring, and this idea that "everyone MUST succeed," so we water down and water down until everyone can.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 10:05:23 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cordeliasub
I can't imagine what it must be like for high school teachers.

I know one teacher that teaches teenage kids in SoCal and if they misbehave they just get kicked out of his class.. end of story... he even called the cops to charge a girl wanting better grades that propositioned him (she also touched him somehow).. he expects kids to learn and do their homework, if they dont want to that is not his problem, its theirs, he comes in early to help those that need extra help, he has been teaching at that same school his entire teaching career.. I dare say kids that have been able to manipulate teachers for years get their eyes opened when they run into him.. but that is no different than when i was a kid, teachers that were soft, that could not control their class or that didnt demand respect were chewed up and spat out..

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 10:09:49 AM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
Back in the day of stay at home moms, there was a higher number of people who were successful and finished school than there are today.


I'm curious about this. Do you have some data to back this up? Because the number of students going to college now is much higher than it was back in the 50s, so it seems unlikely to me that the number of people who graduate high school is much lower.

There are a lot of myths we have now about how much better it was "in the old days" - did you know that the teen pregnancy rate is half of what it was 50 years ago?

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 1:36:24 PM   
tazzygirl


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This is what is coming out of high school these days.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8FB40y71sQ

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 1:46:09 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		Education in this country started going down the toilet when we stopped paying teachers to actually teach. We pay them barely enough to act as baby sitters.

Good teachers are not paid enough to stay, so we are stuck with teachers who dont give a shit.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 2:12:16 PM   
TNDommeK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu


quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK
Back in the day of stay at home moms, there was a higher number of people who were successful and finished school than there are today.


I'm curious about this. Do you have some data to back this up? Because the number of students going to college now is much higher than it was back in the 50s, so it seems unlikely to me that the number of people who graduate high school is much lower.

There are a lot of myths we have now about how much better it was "in the old days" - did you know that the teen pregnancy rate is half of what it was 50 years ago?


Yes, I saw it some where and can't remember where. But it was saying something about how less people ended up in ail and how more people were successful. I'll look again.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 2:46:15 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		I had thought or was at least was told by our conservatives that school/educational problems started when "we took god out of the classroom".....(though I fail to se how that`s possible)





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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 3:10:17 PM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		Not to mention that God was never taken out of the classrooms.....


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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 3:13:58 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		I think there's little doubt that things have gotten worse, over-all since the government (day care centers and public schools) has become the de facto parents of our children.

There's less respect for authority. There's a sense of entitlement by our young people.

I don't know exactly the pathology but, the results are obvious.

I've asked kids not to play ball near my house and gotten a response of: "You're not my father".

I have noticed that things are a bit different, where I am now (not a city, by any stretch). When I'm outside, smoking, at my favprite restaurant, I become a doorman of sorts. I get a lot more "thank you"s out here than I did, before. The people here, in general, seem to have a bit more of a sense of morality (something I don't think schools should be teaching) and courtesy; amongst other things.

One of the main differences I see between where I was and where I am:

I had a small, one bedroom apartment that cost me $1,500 per month. Here, I have a larger (main bedroom is 24' x 18' ), three bedroom that costs me less than half what I used to pay. Living is cheaper, here (the pay isn't half what it was, in NJ). It's easier for people to make enough money to live.

My car insurance in NJ: $1,200 per year. Here: $400 (and some change).

Economics is absolutely the issue. Here, one partner can work enough (two jobs, if necessary) to support their family; leaving the other partner to instill their shared values and views in their children.

Pretty simple, really and I think the reaction to the governor's statements were absolutely blown out of proportion by the professional victims in this country.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 6/5/2013 3:18:58 PM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 3:36:27 PM   
leonine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Education in this country started going down the toilet when we stopped paying teachers to actually teach. We pay them barely enough to act as baby sitters.

Good teachers are not paid enough to stay, so we are stuck with teachers who dont give a shit.

It's not just the job conditions, it's the training. My son needed to live in the US, so he got a UK teaching diploma and walked into a job.

Bush Senior's "No Child Left Behind" tried to get more teachers on the cheap by fast-tracking their training (because, like, who needs training to be a teacher, you just stand at the front and read from the book, right?) The result is that any school that can, hires foreign trained teachers, who have actually been taught something useful.

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 3:56:44 PM   
KittyDeVille


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Status: offline 		I dont know about the US but in my country there is a change of view at good or bad traits from kids with more women in front of the classroom.
Women tend to look at writing neatly, or behaving silently, p.e. no rough made woodwork, being able to express yourself well verbally and in writing, not acting out physically, like playing wildly after lunchbreak.
Not really boytraits, they also mature slower, so they tend to get lesser grades. If it is a good thing, focussing on the more 'womenly' traits or making an exeption between boys and girls, I dont know. I do think teachers should be aware of it. That gender seems to influence the appreciation of certain traits.

With women entering a workforce payment gets lower. Very strange development, also the respectability of a profession also gets lower. A 40/50 years ago, teaching was a good profession, in a village you would have belonged to the notable people, like a doctor, the notaris (notary?), the mayor

The most weird thing that happened to me, when I was an intern at a highschool, was getting a reprimand from my internteacher for making a boy write (after a warning, stating the consequence) 100 times " I will not disrupt class and be silent unless I am asked to say something". She stated that a punishment should have been usefull, like writing a paper 2 A4 sides about a certain subject or making his homework.
She even went to that boy to ask if he understood why he got his punishment......really....punishments shouldnt be fun and there isnt a emotional trauma in writing 100 lines.
How to fuck up kids, they arent unboiled eggs. Kids need rules, and someone who follows through.





< Message edited by KittyDeVille -- 6/5/2013 4:09:31 PM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 4:23:29 PM   
cordeliasub


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Status: offline 		I learned quite a few useful things in my teacher training. In fact, I'd say it was pretty rigorous with lots of time in the classroom with kids as well.

We as a nation are going to have to make a decision - do we want kids who are held to high standards (which means there ARE some who will not be able to meet it, no matter the teacher), or do we want to "feel good" that everybody graduates, which means the curriculum will continue to have to be watered down. I hear people say "in my day we had to learn harder things." Well, in THEIR day a kid who wasn't going to be able to pass calculus or advanced literature had an 8th or 9th grade education and then went and worked on the family farm or on an assembly line. Now that we think every child should be college prep....we are just teaching in college now some of the things that used to be taught in high school.

I mean honestly, it's like saying if a coach is good then every athlete should get a football scholarship or if a dentist is good then none of his patients should have cavities. I cannot play sports. I cannot. I have two athletic left feet, and God forbid anyone should pass me a ball....I will NOT catch it lol. Michael Jordan himself could coach me, and I ain't gonna make the WNBA.

And as far as our scores compared to this or that country....in a lot of those countries they use tracking (which I think is an excellent idea), and the only students who go onto the college prep track are the ones who will actually succeed there, and those who are going to be more successful at certain trades will be tracked in that direction. So they are testing - at the junior high and high school level - ONLY the students on the higher academic track while WE test anyone who can hold a pencil. How in the world are we supposed to have the same scores???

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 4:33:08 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Ok guys and dolls...I hardly come down here, but I have a good topic.
So the gov. Of Mississippi went to Washington and made a statement on tv saying the decline of education started with women entering the work force.

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130604/mississippi-gov-phil-bryant-education-issues-began-when-moms-j

I hope this link worked.

So my thoughts are this....I don't think he was saying women should be making sammiches in the kitchen. But I do feel he has a point. I think with today's schools not discipling children anymore, and teaching the minimum requirement, there's no way children can learn what they should, or could be from a parent. I'm not saying its impossible, but harder to teach kids values and such if they are always being stuck with the nanny or at day care or never seeing mom or dad bc they are working. Back in the day of stay at home moms, there was a higher number of people who were successful and finished school than there are today.

I'm thinking things were taken farther out of context than should have been and I'm thinking the truth probably pissed some people off.

By the way, I'm all for women working and making the same amount as men and all that stuff. But, I feel that if you want your child raised right, there are ways to do it.



My sociology teacher in community college was a Berkley type, remnant hippy, 40's (1978), gray, long, pony tail hair, sat Indian style on the table up front and bombarded us with minutiae....to make us think.

First day....

"How many of you know that the apple crop in the Okanogan in 1967 fell by 11%?"

No hands went up.

"Okay....how many of you know that in 1967, the VD rate among 13 year old girls in Seattle rose by the same 11%?"

No hands.

"Did you know that in 1968, the apple crop in the Okanogan rose by 9%...and in that same year, the VD rate among 13 year old girls rose in Seattle by 9%?"

No hands.

Then he said..."in 1969, the apple crop fell by 16%.....anyone have any idea what happened to the VD rate among 13 year old girls in Seattle in that same year?"

Hands went up all over the room....."it fell 16%!!!!!" one after the other said.

When he'd counted all the hands, listened to every student offer "fell 16%"....."went down something like 16% sir?"...and he (correctly) said.....

"You are all imbeciles!!!!! What the fuck has the apple crop in Canada got to do with the VD rates of 13 year old girls in Seattle????!!!!!"

To which his point was....statistics don't always tell the actual story. In fact, they almost never do.

Education has declined since the late 50's....which correlates directly with the exact time when women began entering the work force in droves.

The two data are entirely unrelated.

The Governors statement was in fact.....correct.




< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 6/5/2013 4:34:53 PM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 5:41:29 PM   
KittyDeVille


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Status: offline 		Everybody should learn how to live with dissapointment, it is a fact of life. Teaching kids that the will succeed in anything if they just set their mind to it, is dreaming. Perceverance will get you far in life, just as knowing when to quit.
Changing a curriculum just to let everyone pass, is degrading. And not only in degrading the quality of education but also for the kids themselves.
Intelligence or being good in learning on a academical level is too highly regarded. We will lose the crafts people in this way. The skills a craftsman/woman has, should be as highly regarded.
Most parents push their children towards an academical level, even if they would be barely able to make it. I find it very sad, when talking to my neighbor teen, that he says: I dont like school, I dont know what I want to become, I love making and repairing bikes. On my answer, why dont you start learning that for a profession ? He said : Well, it isnt university.
Knowing your strenghts and weaknesses is getting you further in life.

A very irritating factor in teaching these days are the parents. When givng a kid a poor grade or giving detention, you often have parents calling/mailing and bargaining that the grade should go up because their dear child would otherwise fail that class or that detention isnt possible, because the princess has to go to her violinlessons or something else.
Most princes and princesses of these parents will not be top dog in this world. If you treat them that way, they will feel entitled and the world isnt working that way.

It is cheating, it is robbing your child, it is making a child to believe in lalaland. It will make them get into trouble when entering the workfloor. Teaching is coaching, explaining, repeating, seeing if it is getting memorized, support, seeing them with their qualities and flaws, making jokes, being strict, laughing, following their overall mood, learn how to use the curriculum, knitting knowledge together, but also learn them how the world is working.

It doesnt matter if it is a female or a male teacher, those qualities mentioned above, make a good quality of education.






< Message edited by KittyDeVille -- 6/5/2013 5:55:30 PM >

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 5:51:57 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie
When he'd counted all the hands, listened to every student offer "fell 16%"....."went down something like 16% sir?"...and he (correctly) said.....

"You are all imbeciles!!!!! What the fuck has the apple crop in Canada got to do with the VD rates of 13 year old girls in Seattle????!!!!!"

so you answered that question with the same answer then???

That was funny Lookie.. I think I would have liked your teacher..

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RE: MS gov says "education declined with women ent... - 6/5/2013 6:08:26 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

There are a lot of myths we have now about how much better it was "in the old days"

Very true.

Back in 1997, American Heritage did a fascinating article on how America's educational "decline" stemmed in large part from our now educating folks (particularly from lower rungs on the socioeconomic ladder) who were simply left behind in earlier generations.

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