RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him

RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 6:50:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl What did she steal? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Money . "But instead, Frago walked around his apartment and after about 20 minutes left, saying she had to give the money to her driver, he said" Did she? I seem to recall she provided a service for 150 dollars. He paid her for that service, then they started arguing over the extent of that service. Sounds more like a contact dispute than a theft.

Hillwilliam -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 6:51:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin I'm all for dropping criminals dead in their tracks and all but this, at least on its face seems over the top. How was she not a thief? As I said earlier, If a male was using CL to solicit lawn mowing jobs and taking the money and jumping in his truck and hitting the gas, would you believe differently? A woman got killed by a man. Oh My GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWD I'm sorry. She was a thief. If a male thief had died, I'd feel the same If a black thief had died, I'd feel the same If an Asian thief had died, I'd feel the same If a TG thief had died, I'd feel the same If an Hispanic thief had died, I'd feel the same. If a Democrat thief had died, I'd feel the same If a Republican thief had died, I'd feel the same If a young thief had died, I'd feel the same If an old thief had died, I'd feel the same. Are you catching the idea?

Hillwilliam -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 6:57:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl What did she steal? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Money . "But instead, Frago walked around his apartment and after about 20 minutes left, saying she had to give the money to her driver, he said" Did she? I seem to recall she provided a service for 150 dollars. He paid her for that service, then they started arguing over the extent of that service. Sounds more like a contact dispute than a theft. I see nothing in the article that she provided any service What service did she provide? From what I saw, she showed up, She took money, she left. That makes her a thief if services had been contracted for. If service was promised for the money, she stole the money. I see so many people saying "Oh My GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWD, he finally got caught. Keep him in jail til he rots" when a male is caught.

tazzygirl -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 6:58:19 PM)
She wasnt a thief. If her only service was sex, he would not have said he believed her service included sex.

LafayetteLady -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 6:59:11 PM)
Do I believe the law needs to change? Yes. However, not for a single reason you are saying. Remarkably, I agree with Powergamz on this one. We live in a society that has laws where the premise is that a punishment fits the crime. The legal punishment for what this women did was not death. Someone who is not even educated on the law (the defendant) made the decision unilaterally that she should be killed for it regardless of the already proscribed punishment. Yes, she was a criminal and I'm not crying in my coffee that she is dead. But I also believe that the defendant should NOT have been acquitted. What needs to change (again agreeing with Powergamz, eek!) is this whole concept of the various "stand your ground" laws. It wasn't a miscarriage of justice because he shot a woman he believed promised him sex. It was a miscarriage of justice because there is a big enough contingent of citizens who are itchy enough to want to shoot someone that they were able to get these "stand your ground" type laws on the books. Yes, the defense took the broad terms used in that law and used it to their advantage. That IS their job after all. If that law didn't exist, there is little question this guy would have been found guilty. Why? Because that law wouldn't have been there for the defense to take advantage of. Stand your ground type laws ARE vigilante justice. For every law that exists like that, there are people who will use it to their advantage, just like in this case. If "Joe Citizen" knew how to apply the law as it was written, there wouldn't be a need for attorneys or even a court system. Every citizen would be able to apply whatever punishment they thought was appropriate. This is the same problem both sides keep having with various gun laws. They don't know how to properly present their argument. Complaining a guy got away with shooting a hooker who refused sex with him doesn't do any cause any good. Saying that the government is trying to take away your guns doesn't deal with the issue of people legally owning guns. Both arguments can't manage to get to the "meat" of the issue. So no, I won't be signing any petition for a hooker who got shot in the commission of a crime. Should they create a petition to eliminate "SYG" type laws and possibly use this as one of the reasons those laws need to be abolished, let me know.

tazzygirl -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl What did she steal? DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH Money . "But instead, Frago walked around his apartment and after about 20 minutes left, saying she had to give the money to her driver, he said" Did she? I seem to recall she provided a service for 150 dollars. He paid her for that service, then they started arguing over the extent of that service. Sounds more like a contact dispute than a theft. I see nothing in the article that she provided any service What service did she provide? From what I saw, she showed up, She took money, she left. That makes her a thief if services had been contracted for. If service was promised for the money, she stole the money. I see so many people saying "Oh My GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWD, he finally got caught. Keep him in jail til he rots" when a male is caught. Gilbert's defense argued that the shooting wasn't meant to kill, and that Gilbert's actions were justified, because he believed that sex was included as part* of the fee.* If its only part, what was the rest?

Hillwilliam -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:12:03 PM)
A thief is dead. Long live the thief. Wanna prosecute someone? Prosecute the driver/accomplice.

Real0ne -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:12:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Now that's the Libertarian dream in action: that man paid good money to rent the body of another human being in the free market, and when she didn't deliver the promised services he asserted his property rights without appealing to the tyrannical state by shooting her. Texas - the beacon of liberty! and the defense proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and the jury agreed that there was no need to bother the tyranical state in this case.

lovmuffin -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin I'm all for dropping criminals dead in their tracks and all but this, at least on its face seems over the top. How was she not a thief? As I said earlier, If a male was using CL to solicit lawn mowing jobs and taking the money and jumping in his truck and hitting the gas, would you believe differently? A woman got killed by a man. Oh My GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWD I'm sorry. She was a thief. If a male thief had died, I'd feel the same If a black thief had died, I'd feel the same If an Asian thief had died, I'd feel the same If a TG thief had died, I'd feel the same If an Hispanic thief had died, I'd feel the same. If a Democrat thief had died, I'd feel the same If a Republican thief had died, I'd feel the same If a young thief had died, I'd feel the same If an old thief had died, I'd feel the same. Are you catching the idea? I'm catching where you are coming from but I don't think the situation warrented her getting shot dead. If only we knew her side of the story. Maybe the guy was acting weird and she wanted to high tail it out a there. Maybe the guy is a liar and there is more to the story than we will ever know not to mention he was engaging in an illegal act, prostitution. What if he was paying her for drugs and she was taking off without delivering ?

Real0ne -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:14:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama Shot for refusing sex A court in Texas just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him. She's dead, and he will serve no time at all. WRONG! this is not about "not having sex" its about outright stealing the property of another.

LafayetteLady -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:16:12 PM)
While I don't necessarily agree with Hill on this.... What difference does it make? Perhaps .01% was for something other than sex. If you want to call this a "contract dispute," you can't keep hanging on something that isn't available.

njlauren -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:17:14 PM)
I don't think this was about being coerced into sex, I think it basically is the guy shot and killed her because of a deal gone bad. I don't know what the Craigslist ad said, but often with escort ads they are couched in such a way as to defer criminal action, thus in theory the fee is to pay the person for their time, and anything that goes on after that is between them (there are legitimate escort services, where guys will hire arm candy for events and such...). This gets into a gray area because prostitution is illegal, and therefore you could argue that since it was such, the guy can't argue that what she did was theft, a property crime, since he was engaged in an illegal activity. It is no different then if he gave someone 150 bucks to buy cocaine, and the guy gave him powdered sugar..would those who say he was justified in protecting his property, say so if he was buying drugs? He was engaged in illicit commerce, no different....... The problem with these laws is they give broad latitude in defining legal use of lethal force. It used to be you were allowed to only use lethal force when you believed your life was in danger; some places had a tradition that said you could do so to defend your property, but in others it was only to protect your physical well being, so shooting someone for stealing your lawn chairs was not valid in many places. That has been eroded, and now you can basically shoot to kill and argue it was because you thought the guy had stolen or was going to steal something. If a guy trespasses and you blow him away, well, he could be a potential burglar...and it is troubling, to say the least. At the very least, he should be convicted of manslaughter, not to mention being charged with soliciting prostitution, since the crime happened in commission of s crime. No, he shouldn't be charged with trying to force her to have sex, it should be an illegal deal gone wrong and be charged appropriately.

tazzygirl -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:20:29 PM)
You can kill someone because you and the other party has a disagreement over a verbal contract? Interesting to know. We only have his side. I am basing it on what HIS lawyers said. "Part of a fee". Means what? That was his understanding. What was the rest of the fee for?

Powergamz1 -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:20:46 PM)
Let's put it this way... If someone hires an escort, and said escort shows up for the assignation, and pulls out a badge, aren't most people are going to claim 'But we were just talking, not having sex!'? Yes, she provided an escort service of companionship at a minimum. We don't have enough details from the media to know where the minds failed to meet. All of which might make an interesting law school riddle of the 'improved the property' sort. Until you get to the part about shooting people. Note that the idea of an adult deliberately pulling the trigger and claiming 'I didn't mean to kill them' has also been extinct in modern courtrooms for quite a while. All of which raises the suspicion that either the media has completely misreported the story, or that yet another jury has succumbed to the wrong kind of rhetoric.

lovmuffin -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:21:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Do I believe the law needs to change? Yes. However, not for a single reason you are saying. Remarkably, I agree with Powergamz on this one. We live in a society that has laws where the premise is that a punishment fits the crime. The legal punishment for what this women did was not death. Someone who is not even educated on the law (the defendant) made the decision unilaterally that she should be killed for it regardless of the already proscribed punishment. Yes, she was a criminal and I'm not crying in my coffee that she is dead. But I also believe that the defendant should NOT have been acquitted. What needs to change (again agreeing with Powergamz, eek!) is this whole concept of the various "stand your ground" laws. It wasn't a miscarriage of justice because he shot a woman he believed promised him sex. It was a miscarriage of justice because there is a big enough contingent of citizens who are itchy enough to want to shoot someone that they were able to get these "stand your ground" type laws on the books. Yes, the defense took the broad terms used in that law and used it to their advantage. That IS their job after all. If that law didn't exist, there is little question this guy would have been found guilty. Why? Because that law wouldn't have been there for the defense to take advantage of. Stand your ground type laws ARE vigilante justice. For every law that exists like that, there are people who will use it to their advantage, just like in this case. If "Joe Citizen" knew how to apply the law as it was written, there wouldn't be a need for attorneys or even a court system. Every citizen would be able to apply whatever punishment they thought was appropriate. This is the same problem both sides keep having with various gun laws. They don't know how to properly present their argument. Complaining a guy got away with shooting a hooker who refused sex with him doesn't do any cause any good. Saying that the government is trying to take away your guns doesn't deal with the issue of people legally owning guns. Both arguments can't manage to get to the "meat" of the issue. So no, I won't be signing any petition for a hooker who got shot in the commission of a crime. Should they create a petition to eliminate "SYG" type laws and possibly use this as one of the reasons those laws need to be abolished, let me know. Oh good grief, I was wondering when some one would bring SYG into this. I'm not comprehending how SYG has anything to do with this situation. Though we may be in agreement that he shouldn't have shot her.

Real0ne -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:22:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Do I believe the law needs to change? Yes. However, not for a single reason you are saying. Remarkably, I agree with Powergamz on this one. We live in a society that has laws where the premise is that a punishment fits the crime. The legal punishment for what this women did was not death. Someone who is not even educated on the law (the defendant) made the decision unilaterally that she should be killed for it regardless of the already proscribed punishment. Yes, she was a criminal and I'm not crying in my coffee that she is dead. But I also believe that the defendant should NOT have been acquitted. What needs to change (again agreeing with Powergamz, eek!) is this whole concept of the various "stand your ground" laws. It wasn't a miscarriage of justice because he shot a woman he believed promised him sex. It was a miscarriage of justice because there is a big enough contingent of citizens who are itchy enough to want to shoot someone that they were able to get these "stand your ground" type laws on the books. Yes, the defense took the broad terms used in that law and used it to their advantage. That IS their job after all. If that law didn't exist, there is little question this guy would have been found guilty. Why? Because that law wouldn't have been there for the defense to take advantage of. Stand your ground type laws ARE vigilante justice. For every law that exists like that, there are people who will use it to their advantage, just like in this case. If "Joe Citizen" knew how to apply the law as it was written, there wouldn't be a need for attorneys or even a court system. Every citizen would be able to apply whatever punishment they thought was appropriate. This is the same problem both sides keep having with various gun laws. They don't know how to properly present their argument. Complaining a guy got away with shooting a hooker who refused sex with him doesn't do any cause any good. Saying that the government is trying to take away your guns doesn't deal with the issue of people legally owning guns. Both arguments can't manage to get to the "meat" of the issue. So no, I won't be signing any petition for a hooker who got shot in the commission of a crime. Should they create a petition to eliminate "SYG" type laws and possibly use this as one of the reasons those laws need to be abolished, let me know. thats not vigilante what are you talking about. go to court over 150 bucks? that is no guarantee of getting the money back but when you shoot someone you simply take it back. now can we apply this to the crooks on wall street and the banking industry et al?

Real0ne -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:26:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren This gets into a gray area because prostitution is illegal, and therefore you could argue that since it was such, the guy can't argue that what she did was theft, a property crime, since he was engaged in an illegal activity. It is no different then if he gave someone 150 bucks to buy cocaine, and the guy gave him powdered sugar..would those who say he was justified in protecting his property, say so if he was buying drugs? He was engaged in illicit commerce, no different....... yep and if you cant take it to court you use street justice in its place. thats life. and death for that matter.

Powergamz1 -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:30:06 PM)
SYG as distorted by the media has mutated into the notion of opening fire on school buses and claiming self defense because one of the children might have had a sharp pencil. [;)] Presumptive property defense as distorted by the media has morphed into Joe Horn type shootings. Castle doctrine as distorted by the media has turned into 'shooting it out with the jackbooted thugs'. quote: ORIGINAL: lovmuffin quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Do I believe the law needs to change? Yes. However, not for a single reason you are saying. Remarkably, I agree with Powergamz on this one. We live in a society that has laws where the premise is that a punishment fits the crime. The legal punishment for what this women did was not death. Someone who is not even educated on the law (the defendant) made the decision unilaterally that she should be killed for it regardless of the already proscribed punishment. Yes, she was a criminal and I'm not crying in my coffee that she is dead. But I also believe that the defendant should NOT have been acquitted. What needs to change (again agreeing with Powergamz, eek!) is this whole concept of the various "stand your ground" laws. It wasn't a miscarriage of justice because he shot a woman he believed promised him sex. It was a miscarriage of justice because there is a big enough contingent of citizens who are itchy enough to want to shoot someone that they were able to get these "stand your ground" type laws on the books. Yes, the defense took the broad terms used in that law and used it to their advantage. That IS their job after all. If that law didn't exist, there is little question this guy would have been found guilty. Why? Because that law wouldn't have been there for the defense to take advantage of. Stand your ground type laws ARE vigilante justice. For every law that exists like that, there are people who will use it to their advantage, just like in this case. If "Joe Citizen" knew how to apply the law as it was written, there wouldn't be a need for attorneys or even a court system. Every citizen would be able to apply whatever punishment they thought was appropriate. This is the same problem both sides keep having with various gun laws. They don't know how to properly present their argument. Complaining a guy got away with shooting a hooker who refused sex with him doesn't do any cause any good. Saying that the government is trying to take away your guns doesn't deal with the issue of people legally owning guns. Both arguments can't manage to get to the "meat" of the issue. So no, I won't be signing any petition for a hooker who got shot in the commission of a crime. Should they create a petition to eliminate "SYG" type laws and possibly use this as one of the reasons those laws need to be abolished, let me know. Oh good grief, I was wondering when some one would bring SYG into this. I'm not comprehending how SYG has anything to do with this situation. Though we may be in agreement that he shouldn't have shot her.

lovmuffin -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:31:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne now can we apply this to the crooks on wall street and the banking industry et al? Hmmmmm.............Good point, I might have to change my position on this.

Real0ne -> RE: A court in TX just exonerated a man who shot and killed a woman who had refused to have sex with him (6/7/2013 7:31:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Powergamz1 Let's put it this way... If someone hires an escort, and said escort shows up for the assignation, and pulls out a badge, aren't most people are going to claim 'But we were just talking, not having sex!'? Yes, she provided an escort service of companionship at a minimum. We don't have enough details from the media to know where the minds failed to meet. All of which might make an interesting law school riddle of the 'improved the property' sort. Until you get to the part about shooting people. Note that the idea of an adult deliberately pulling the trigger and claiming 'I didn't mean to kill them' has also been extinct in modern courtrooms for quite a while. All of which raises the suspicion that either the media has completely misreported the story, or that yet another jury has succumbed to the wrong kind of rhetoric. Did the minds fail to meet? No one that I know of simply gives away money, if anyone here knows someone who does hell I got a nice big bag they can fill for me! Hundreds please! LOL if she was shot over not having sex and taking the money anyway I think its pretty safe to say that companionship was not part of the arrangement.

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