RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (Full Version)

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stef -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/7/2013 8:43:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: unepetitesouris

SSC and RACK are both insanely important. They should both be used in every. Single. Aspect.

Bullshit.

If you need an acronym to guide your "lifestyle activities", you shouldn't be let out of the house without adult supervision.




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/7/2013 8:50:38 PM)

Ok Mommy! Gesh!




androticus -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/7/2013 10:52:30 PM)

Sadly, many of the profiles on this site as well as other fetish sites, and emails/chats I've had (at least this is M-M) indicate that many people don't really understand the ideas of CONSENT and MUTUAL BENEFIT. So many alleged Masters/Doms I've encountered have this attitude of "I'm the Master, everything is my way, you are the slave, you have no more say in anything, I do whatever I want, I treat you however I want, your needs or desires mean nothing" etc. I also see a fair number of "absolute, no-release slavery" type of profiles. I think there are also a fair number of subs/slaves who post the opposite type of thing, not really realizing that **actually** being in a situation wherein you really don't have any control or say anymore, don't feel you can say 'no', are being controlled, used, etc., yet may not be fullfilled at all -- well then that person realizes that they really didn't want *that* situation -- they were fantasizing about being a devoted slave to a Master who was actually fulfilling *their* slave desires and needs.

All those kinds of attitudes are immensely harmful to the BDSM community. A lot of people seem to obsess about having "safe first meetings" but I think really that there is less risk in meeting people than is often feared (I can't speak of course for women meeting men -- that could be quite different.) But unless a relationship is CONSENSUAL and most importantly to MUTUAL BENEFIT then it is a relationship of exploitation and abuse. Sure, a Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress is one distinct type of role and a Sub/Slave is another, but both parties need to establish a relationship in which they are getting intense satisfaction from their role. The onus of responsibility is particularly acute on the Dominant partner, precisely because so many slaves have such an innate desire to submit and obey, and to not "complain" or "ask for things". That is why a good Master will try to discover the types of domination that are particularly needful or satisfying to the slave, and provide those things (to the degree of course they don't cross any boundaries of the Dominant).

Myself, for example, I enjoy all kinds of being subservient to my Master, and don't have any particular list of things I don't or won't do (I mean as far as very general common sense goes.) But at the same time, there are a few things that are deeply central to me as a slave -- one relationship I had, my Master just didn't seem to be interested in any of the core things that I craved desperately. He eventually started fulfilling one thing that I really needed, but at a certain point, we just realized it was not in any way a mutually beneficial situation -- he was getting all the things he wanted, I was providing all those things, yet I was desperately hungry all the time for some things and it just couldn't work.

So I guess, to my mind, the most important things are that both parties have a clear agreement on consent and mutual benefit, AND have compatible enough interests in things that matter very importantly to both of them, to have their fetish "personas" satisfied, to be realistically compatible. In this way, a slave/sub is deeply and naturally motivated to serve and please his her master/dominant, out of love and abiding respect (not fear) and the master/dominant can fully enjoy owning the sub/slave knowing that a satisfied sub is the strongest bond they can have over someone.




JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:11:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
Simple suggestion's when first meeting anyone?

Don't fuck them.




Focus50 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:19:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I believe in PRICK!

Personal Responsibility in Kink.


What's the "C" stand for?




The "C" is silent. [;)]


Personal Responsibility in Silent Kink.

PRISK?

[;)] back atcha.

Focus.




ResidentSadist -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 1:47:48 AM)

I believe in trust . . . I do not believe in SSC as a credo, nor does the person (David Stein) that coined the phrase and he has retracted his comments and apologized for them. The original SSC speech itself was designed as a public service to a gay leathermen crowd, an attempt to curb a particular group of predators that were haunting the gay leather scene posing as Tops/Doms and seriously injuring people. Author David Stein never intended, nor did he want to create a credo. He says he never meant to see it "used to define something like articles of faith s/m newbies are expected to absorb turns my stomach, especially when the people doing the defining are the kind who do s/m at a very tame, low level of intensity and think that’s where the boundaries should be set for everyone." Anyway . . . it had to do with edge play and predators abusing edge play.

I strongly disagree with SSC mantra. I see SSC as a flag waving in the wind for those seeking one true way . . . for those that seek validation and a PC mantra that is acceptable to the general non-BDSM public. What we do is not safe and according to the DSM until recently, it was not completely sane. SSC has become a credo for the slap & tickle crowd and helps create a bigger divide between them and the edge players.

I believe in edge play and I like heightened risk factors to achieve fear, excitement and to achieve heightened pleasure. The article excerpt below touched on some interesting perspectives about SSC and BDSM in general.




I can’t imagine what the colleagues of Dr. Bruce Gross think when they read his curriculum vitae and see his Forensic Examiner article titled The Pleasure of Pain. I was very surprised when I read valid BDSM information and advice coming from the Forensic Examiner magazine. Here are some excerpts if you need to be “sold” on reading the article. Otherwise, jump to full article link at bottom of page.

“There is evidence of BDSM occurring across time and cultures, with perhaps the most widely known example being the Kama Sutra, written by Vatsysayana in 450 AD as a guide to maximizing sexual pleasure (Vatsysayana, 1964). As suggested by the Kama Sutra and as raised by Ellis in 1927, “pain” may not be an appropriate term or applied concept in the context of sadomasochism, in which (regardless of the underlying reason) pain is experienced as pleasure resulting in sexual gratification (Eulenburg, 1911). This paradox led to a paradigmatic shift away from a singular focus on pain, as pain itself is not perceived as erotic for every practitioner of BDSM and may be included in only one of many BDSM rituals practiced by those who do. As BDSM includes the desire or need for submission, domination, and humiliation for sexual gratification (often without requiring pain), the definition of BDSM shifted to a focus on the construct of an erotic power exchange.”

“Clinical and lay views on the practice of BDSM range from its being a form of normal, healthy sexuality, to being reflective of issues related to vulnerability and intimacy, to its being synonymous with mental illness. While dominance and submission are generally accepted as normal aspects of the continuum of sexual behavior, sadism and masochism are less so. In light of the fine line between pleasure and pain, it has been hypothesized that BDSM is associated with an atypically high pain threshold. As endorphins are autonomically released in response to both pleasure and pain, it has also been suggested that BDSM is associated with abnormally high levels of endorphins reinforcing an initial experimental or accidental experience with BDSM.”

“Within the BDSM subculture, there exists a division in thought (and in practice) related to safety measures (Masters et al., 1995). On one side are those who believe BDSM requires heightened risk to achieve heightened pleasure. The requisite imbalance of power becomes illusory when the interaction is negotiated and scripted, drawing emphasis to the difference in authenticity between playing a sexual sadist/masochist and being one. On the other side of the ongoing controversy are those who are adamant that the transfer or surrender of power and control should always be negotiated in advance.”

“The social and legal expectation for all sexual encounters is that each party has given informed consent and that each will respect and behaviorally conform to the other’s “no.” Without both elements a sexual act becomes a punishable crime.”

“Compared to more traditional or vanilla sex, the potential for missing or misreading a partner’s “no” is far greater in BDSM, given that the identifying power imbalance is manifested in signs of servitude, acts of blind obedience, desperate begging, vigorous resistance, and complaints of pain.”

“An increasing number of states are enacting mandatory arrest laws in situations of domestic violence that could potentially result in the arrest of one party (most likely the top) if for any reason the police are called to the location of the BDSM scene.”

“Those who advocate safe, sane, consensual (SSC) BDSM—also known as riskaware-consensual-kink (RACK)—recommend establishing safe-words (other than “no” or “stop”) that once spoken by either party will immediately stop the scene. If gagging is part of the sexual experience, a safe-sign should be created as well.”

“As a result of this normalization through familiarity, by the mid-1980s BDSM was no longer considered inherently indicative of mental illness.” “With the revisions made to the DSMIV in 2000, sexual sadism/masochism can be diagnosed if the fantasies or urges are acted upon, even if the individual does not suffer consequent distress or impaired functioning (APA, 2000). As noted by Masters et al., there are individuals with sadistic or masochistic fantasies that, while ego-dystonic, do not result in a level of distress sufficient for diagnosis and do not meet the criteria for obsessive-compulsive disorder (Masters et al., 1995).”

“Healthy relationships are characterized by mutual trust and respect manifested in the negotiation of roles and boundaries in interactions. When BDSM is part of a relationship, this negotiation of roles and boundaries is critically important not only for the health and survival of the relationship, but also that of the individuals involved.”

The entire article is eloquent, informative, well researched and well written. I have never seen someone wrap up BDSM so thoroughly in a nice 6 page read like this before. Although short, it covers the origins, practice, cultures, SSC, legal consent, TPE vs D/s, legal issues, legal exposure of practitioners, beating the law, safety, psychology and etc. Hell, he even claims it’s normal and is one of the few doctors I’ve seen to associate algolagnia with SM. If the article presents nothing interesting to you I at least hope you enjoy the irony of the source being the Forensic Examiner as much as I did. Someone buy Dr. Bruce Gross a beer will ya!

Refernce:
Forensic Examiner, Vol:15, Issue:1, Date: Spring 2006, Pg: 56 – 61
Article: The Pleasure of Pain
By Bruce Gross Ph.D.
Format: PDF
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/pdfs/spring06.pdf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please note: although this a magazine publication it is not BDSM in the news.






Kana -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 4:55:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: unepetitesouris

SSC and RACK are both insanely important. They should both be used in every. Single. Aspect.

Errrrrrr,I promised I'd be nicer to newbies (Are you watching,Focus)so I'll settle for simply saying,"Not."
Why must folk try and insist on a one size fits all sort of limitations for BDSM.
Lets try something radically different-You do your thing,I'll do mine,and we won't judge each other because we're both kinky freaks.

"Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the sun....but Mama,that's where the fun is."




SatinWhip -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 6:07:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: androticus
That is why a good Master will try to discover the types of domination that are particularly needful or satisfying to the slave, and provide those things (to the degree of course they don't cross any boundaries of the Dominant)


To me this is essentially the definition of a service top.





Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 6:11:40 AM)

Maybe one good idea is that any punishment a "Dom/me" want's to inflict on their "subs/slave", perhap's they've been through it themselves, just so they actually know what they are talking about. Just an idea. I got that out of that old cheesy site from the "link" I provided earlier. I am just repeating their suggestion. Remember, suggestion's are not order's. Do with them as you wish.




TheLilSquaw -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 6:44:19 AM)

Charles,

I am going to respond to a number of your posts but don't feel like trying to quote every point I am responding to.

I have a lot of issues with safe, sane, and consensual which is not big secret to anyone who knows me or brings up it up in conversation. My biggest issue with the SSC mantra is it who gets to determine what is safe or sane? I can promise you my safe and sane isn't for everyone. I rather enjoy edge play. Heck, I admit I do much of the play I do because of the "risk" or head space that risk puts me in.

I also have an issue with the statement, "trust is very important especially for the submissive." I am going to call bullshit. I think in many ways, a top, dom/me takes a much greater risk.

You also keep saying basic common sense can help. Let me say this, in some of my personal play what most folks consider "common sense" gets thrown out the window by me. So I am going to ask, who determines what is basic common sense?

I also do not buy, the statement that a top, dom/me should experience a punishment before they inflict it on someone else. Like anything punishment is VERY personal, what works for one personal may not have the same affect on someone else. How I am punished isn't how I would punish my subs.


I think the key is to KNOW the person you are punishing.







SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 6:48:04 AM)

Charles, the whole "start at the bottom" crap came out of the old gay leather days and was a BAD thing. It wae not universal and had more to do with newbies being fucked over by predators than any,relation to skill.

The other reason it is stupid is because it doesn't work. It implies that pain feels the same to everyone and that it does so all the time no matter the situation.

Kinda like asking someone doesn't like music to pick out a good violin.

When Topping/playing one should judge their partner's experience as a unique stand alone experience, certainly not how they "think it should be felt"!







Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 7:59:33 AM)

I agree everyone is different. I am basing what I type from my own experience. I have certainly done my fairshare of extreme "stuff", that some would consider extreme. I do feel trust is important because once that trust has been violated, it's hard to "trust" that same person.

People who have been in long term D/s relationship I feel is different. If 2 people have been around each other long enough, they already know how far to go. I am talking about "playing" with people who one may not know too well. 1 idea that did work well for me when I first got into "kink", I went to a "Fetish Party", where people were around, it was at a private home and they had their own "security". If anyone felt threatened or uncomfortable, they could tell the "staff" and they would handle it on a case by case basis.

I do realize not everyone who claim's to be into "Fetish", always is who they are. Of course, that same kind of logic can be said when meeting new people in life, in general. The internet is full of all kind's of people, so when I mention "common sense", I am meaning know who the person is first.

I fully understand "expanding" limit's and nothing is written in stone. As a true D/s relationship blossom's, I certainly don't mind my "limits" being pushed. I just don't believe limit's should be disregarded altogether.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:07:25 AM)

I don't need quotes. I have run kink groups, owned playspaces, taught kink at the national level, and certainly don't know everything.

What I do know is an impliment/technique feels different to each person. That same person will experience that same sensation in widely different ways, who is doing it, relationship, depending on mood, temperature, time of month, bank account status, arousal state, location, and a million other variables.

In other words, a given toy used by a clueless newbie who the bottom adores will likely feel better than the same toy used by a skilled top who isn't as emotionally close. It is also an art, playing your partners moods, fears, desires, anticipation, mood, etc to create something far greater than the mere sum of the parts.




JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:08:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SatinWhip
To me this is essentially the definition of a service top.

Yeah well, some of us on these boards are perfectly content with the label "service master". Or... you can call it whatever the hell you like but I love Carol and I want her to be happy so a great many of my commands are focused on that. I've spent a lot of effort turning Carol into an oil painter for her benefit. My cock doesn't get hard watching her paint (unless, of course, I've dressed her up for the event).




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:09:21 AM)

Charles, I personally think SSC is perfect for those who are new. Its hard to know, coming into the lifestyle, what you may enjoy and what you dont. SSC would cover the basics until you learn what it is you wish to explore in a more edge-play fashion.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:17:33 AM)

Oh god tazzy, what is and isn't SSC? There is no there there.

Same for RACK or any of the others. They are all meaningless.




Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:43:34 AM)

Service Top? Sound's like a lame excuse for a Dom to ignore limit's and shame the sub into not doing what the "Dom" want's, even if it was something clearly beyond limit's. Guilt trip doesn't work on me. A sub asking for "safe play" isn't a service top. Sure, there probably are some "service tops" out there. I assume that's for the Dom to figure out. Just like I would need to make sure I don't just "submit" myself to just anyone. Sure,SSC,RACK or likewise, may be overrated and the words's are meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in "safe play" in the first place. It's overall advantage's outweighs what minor disadvantage's it may carry with it. My mind is already made up about this issue. Using "pseudo psychology" method's have no impact on me.




Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:47:03 AM)

When DOES someone differ consensual BDSM from abuse? I imagine there's a fine line somewhere between the 2.




MasterCaneman -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:50:07 AM)

I've tried commenting on this three times now. Each time what I wrote became meaningless, so I'll keep it short and sweet. My personal experience is simply common sense-safeword/signal, keep the airway clear, make sure the impact toys don't have nasty edges, and check extremities often. I didn't have nor need acronyms to tell me that before, and neither did my partners. As long as we both walked away from the scene the next day it was all good.

I was fortunate in having partners with previous experience who let me know exactly what would fly and what wouldn't, and I respected that. Made my part a lot easier, both in the opening negotiation and execution of the act. Did we do dangerous and stupid things? Of course we did. I was in my twenties as were most of my playmates, so it was still the 'experimental' stage. I was also a 'cougar' magnet (though the term didn't exist then), so I had the benefit of getting educated by partners much more experienced than I.

Really, if I were advising a newbie, it would be as simple as this: start slow, be careful, read up on it if it makes you feel better, and respect your partner and yourself. That's about all I feel anyone needs to begin. Oh, and don't use porn as a teaching tool. That's it.




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:50:12 AM)

A lot of people will use a laundry list of why you should do things their way. Do it your way. [;)]




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