RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (Full Version)

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njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:53:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I believe in trust . . . I do not believe in SSC as a credo, nor does the person (David Stein) that coined the phrase and he has retracted his comments and apologized for them. The original SSC speech itself was designed as a public service to a gay leathermen crowd, an attempt to curb a particular group of predators that were haunting the gay leather scene posing as Tops/Doms and seriously injuring people. Author David Stein never intended, nor did he want to create a credo. He says he never meant to see it "used to define something like articles of faith s/m newbies are expected to absorb turns my stomach, especially when the people doing the defining are the kind who do s/m at a very tame, low level of intensity and think that’s where the boundaries should be set for everyone." Anyway . . . it had to do with edge play and predators abusing edge play.

I strongly disagree with SSC mantra. I see SSC as a flag waving in the wind for those seeking one true way . . . for those that seek validation and a PC mantra that is acceptable to the general non-BDSM public. What we do is not safe and according to the DSM until recently, it was not completely sane. SSC has become a credo for the slap & tickle crowd and helps create a bigger divide between them and the edge players.

I believe in edge play and I like heightened risk factors to achieve fear, excitement and to achieve heightened pleasure. The article excerpt below touched on some interesting perspectives about SSC and BDSM in general.




I can’t imagine what the colleagues of Dr. Bruce Gross think when they read his curriculum vitae and see his Forensic Examiner article titled The Pleasure of Pain. I was very surprised when I read valid BDSM information and advice coming from the Forensic Examiner magazine. Here are some excerpts if you need to be “sold” on reading the article. Otherwise, jump to full article link at bottom of page.

“There is evidence of BDSM occurring across time and cultures, with perhaps the most widely known example being the Kama Sutra, written by Vatsysayana in 450 AD as a guide to maximizing sexual pleasure (Vatsysayana, 1964). As suggested by the Kama Sutra and as raised by Ellis in 1927, “pain” may not be an appropriate term or applied concept in the context of sadomasochism, in which (regardless of the underlying reason) pain is experienced as pleasure resulting in sexual gratification (Eulenburg, 1911). This paradox led to a paradigmatic shift away from a singular focus on pain, as pain itself is not perceived as erotic for every practitioner of BDSM and may be included in only one of many BDSM rituals practiced by those who do. As BDSM includes the desire or need for submission, domination, and humiliation for sexual gratification (often without requiring pain), the definition of BDSM shifted to a focus on the construct of an erotic power exchange.”

“Clinical and lay views on the practice of BDSM range from its being a form of normal, healthy sexuality, to being reflective of issues related to vulnerability and intimacy, to its being synonymous with mental illness. While dominance and submission are generally accepted as normal aspects of the continuum of sexual behavior, sadism and masochism are less so. In light of the fine line between pleasure and pain, it has been hypothesized that BDSM is associated with an atypically high pain threshold. As endorphins are autonomically released in response to both pleasure and pain, it has also been suggested that BDSM is associated with abnormally high levels of endorphins reinforcing an initial experimental or accidental experience with BDSM.”

“Within the BDSM subculture, there exists a division in thought (and in practice) related to safety measures (Masters et al., 1995). On one side are those who believe BDSM requires heightened risk to achieve heightened pleasure. The requisite imbalance of power becomes illusory when the interaction is negotiated and scripted, drawing emphasis to the difference in authenticity between playing a sexual sadist/masochist and being one. On the other side of the ongoing controversy are those who are adamant that the transfer or surrender of power and control should always be negotiated in advance.”

“The social and legal expectation for all sexual encounters is that each party has given informed consent and that each will respect and behaviorally conform to the other’s “no.” Without both elements a sexual act becomes a punishable crime.”

“Compared to more traditional or vanilla sex, the potential for missing or misreading a partner’s “no” is far greater in BDSM, given that the identifying power imbalance is manifested in signs of servitude, acts of blind obedience, desperate begging, vigorous resistance, and complaints of pain.”

“An increasing number of states are enacting mandatory arrest laws in situations of domestic violence that could potentially result in the arrest of one party (most likely the top) if for any reason the police are called to the location of the BDSM scene.”

“Those who advocate safe, sane, consensual (SSC) BDSM—also known as riskaware-consensual-kink (RACK)—recommend establishing safe-words (other than “no” or “stop”) that once spoken by either party will immediately stop the scene. If gagging is part of the sexual experience, a safe-sign should be created as well.”

“As a result of this normalization through familiarity, by the mid-1980s BDSM was no longer considered inherently indicative of mental illness.” “With the revisions made to the DSMIV in 2000, sexual sadism/masochism can be diagnosed if the fantasies or urges are acted upon, even if the individual does not suffer consequent distress or impaired functioning (APA, 2000). As noted by Masters et al., there are individuals with sadistic or masochistic fantasies that, while ego-dystonic, do not result in a level of distress sufficient for diagnosis and do not meet the criteria for obsessive-compulsive disorder (Masters et al., 1995).”

“Healthy relationships are characterized by mutual trust and respect manifested in the negotiation of roles and boundaries in interactions. When BDSM is part of a relationship, this negotiation of roles and boundaries is critically important not only for the health and survival of the relationship, but also that of the individuals involved.”

The entire article is eloquent, informative, well researched and well written. I have never seen someone wrap up BDSM so thoroughly in a nice 6 page read like this before. Although short, it covers the origins, practice, cultures, SSC, legal consent, TPE vs D/s, legal issues, legal exposure of practitioners, beating the law, safety, psychology and etc. Hell, he even claims it’s normal and is one of the few doctors I’ve seen to associate algolagnia with SM. If the article presents nothing interesting to you I at least hope you enjoy the irony of the source being the Forensic Examiner as much as I did. Someone buy Dr. Bruce Gross a beer will ya!

Refernce:
Forensic Examiner, Vol:15, Issue:1, Date: Spring 2006, Pg: 56 – 61
Article: The Pleasure of Pain
By Bruce Gross Ph.D.
Format: PDF
http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/pdfs/spring06.pdf
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please note: although this a magazine publication it is not BDSM in the news.





RS, thanks for posting this, I agree, this guy did an amazing job with it. I worked with a therapist for more then a few years who was a scene person herself, had been for a long time, and what she said was pretty much what this guy did in so many words (and she was a deep, deep player from what I have heard about her). The key of it all is informed consent, which implies that I know what is going on as a sub, know the risks, and with my partner have agreed it is okay, that we both want to do it. Where there is a problem is as you say, people abusing edge play, going too far with it (the old argument about stretching limits and breaking them being the same thing is nonsense, with stretching, I as the sub make the effort to go farther and if it is too much, can stop it with a safe word or gesture, breaking a limit is keeping going even if I indicate I am not comfortable with it, or am in distress).

The irony of some of this is some play that looks really, really edgy is not (static electrical stuff like purple wands, that porn videos make look like it is the height of agony), while some kinds of corporal play can seem pretty mild, but can be dangerous or out there....:). Even relatively tame stuff has risks, you can tie someone up and blindfold them and they could for reasons freak out, and have a heart attack and die, tickling could trigger some sort of fit and cause issues....you get the idea.


Someone once asked me if our playing style was SSC or Rack, and I said it depends on how much I pissed off my domme *lol* (and obviously, I am not serious, for one thing, didn't need an excuse for her to do a number on me, and secondly, if pissed, she wouldn't play with me, since that would be only encouraging my SAM side....:)




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 9:59:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Service Top? Sound's like a lame excuse for a Dom to ignore limit's and shame the sub into not doing what the "Dom" want's, even if it was something clearly beyond limit's. Guilt trip doesn't work on me. A sub asking for "safe play" isn't a service top. Sure, there probably are some "service tops" out there. I assume that's for the Dom to figure out. Just like I would need to make sure I don't just "submit" myself to just anyone. Sure,SSC,RACK or likewise, may be overrated and the words's are meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in "safe play" in the first place. It's overall advantage's outweighs what minor disadvantage's it may carry with it. My mind is already made up about this issue. Using "pseudo psychology" method's have no impact on me.



How about a dose of fucking reality? I don't think you even know enough to know what is "safe", "sane" or even understand consent well, let alone have a standard that even approaches mine.

Define a form of play and define when it is and is not "safe" or "sane"...go on, I dare ya!





njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:03:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

Charles,

I am going to respond to a number of your posts but don't feel like trying to quote every point I am responding to.

I have a lot of issues with safe, sane, and consensual which is not big secret to anyone who knows me or brings up it up in conversation. My biggest issue with the SSC mantra is it who gets to determine what is safe or sane? I can promise you my safe and sane isn't for everyone. I rather enjoy edge play. Heck, I admit I do much of the play I do because of the "risk" or head space that risk puts me in.

I also have an issue with the statement, "trust is very important especially for the submissive." I am going to call bullshit. I think in many ways, a top, dom/me takes a much greater risk.

You also keep saying basic common sense can help. Let me say this, in some of my personal play what most folks consider "common sense" gets thrown out the window by me. So I am going to ask, who determines what is basic common sense?

I also do not buy, the statement that a top, dom/me should experience a punishment before they inflict it on someone else. Like anything punishment is VERY personal, what works for one personal may not have the same affect on someone else. How I am punished isn't how I would punish my subs.


I think the key is to KNOW the person you are punishing.







LS, nicely put, and I agree with what you are saying. In defense of Charles, he is relatively new to the scene and is still learning/processing a lot of shit. I think, for example, there is value in dommes who have experienced the sub role, or for example, understands that caning is a very different beast then what is portrayed in fiction and such (like someone new getting 25 whacks with a heavy duty cane and enjoying it..doubt that one very much), but I also don't think they have to, either. He is basically quoting the old conventional wisdom that the best dommes started as sub, and that is quite frankly, one of those things with grains of truth in it but after that, eek......

I often wonder if the ancient Greek (and probably Egyptian) motto of "Know Thyself" is even more important in BD/SM, for a sub knowing where there limits are and communicating it, whether verbally or by body language in play, or for a Dom/Top, knowing themselves well enough that they can read what a sub is telling them (verbally or otherwise), know their own reaction to it, and do it (or not, if it is a limit for the top or for example, if a Top/Dom is angry at the sub, knowing not to play until they are in control).

The key is in mutual trust, and yes, it goes both ways to me, because a top can get into a lot of shit if a sub decides to freak out, for example (The Jovanovich case in NYC a while ago being one of them) or if the sub doesn't let them know they are in distress or having problems.

The thing about play, whether edge or not, to me is a classic feedback circuit/loop, where the benefit to both partners is enhanced by the cycle of trust, and you explore, until like with a feedback circuit, it pushes things over the limit and generates static rather than a pure signal:). You take things to where it works for both, then when it gets distorted, you stop.





JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:04:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Same for RACK or any of the others. They are all meaningless.

Heh... not exactly "meaningless". But any acronym dumbed down to a buzzword becomes meaningless as has happened with these two. They have become slogans rather than an acronym to capture a complex idea in a simple way. The formal risk management person in me thinks RACK makes a TON of sense... but I somehow doubt random BDSM folks would be thinking in those terms. I also suspect anyone who was already thinking in terms of risk management probably doesn't need the slogan.




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:06:54 AM)

quote:

Someone once asked me if our playing style was SSC or Rack, and I said it depends on how much I pissed off my domme *lol* (and obviously, I am not serious, for one thing, didn't need an excuse for her to do a number on me, and secondly, if pissed, she wouldn't play with me, since that would be only encouraging my SAM side....:)


You too? Hahahahahaha... I dont get rewarded for bad behavior either. Im not sure I could classify what we do as SSC... nor as RACK. Whatever it is, it works for us. [:D]




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:14:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I agree everyone is different. I am basing what I type from my own experience. I have certainly done my fairshare of extreme "stuff", that some would consider extreme. I do feel trust is important because once that trust has been violated, it's hard to "trust" that same person.

People who have been in long term D/s relationship I feel is different. If 2 people have been around each other long enough, they already know how far to go. I am talking about "playing" with people who one may not know too well. 1 idea that did work well for me when I first got into "kink", I went to a "Fetish Party", where people were around, it was at a private home and they had their own "security". If anyone felt threatened or uncomfortable, they could tell the "staff" and they would handle it on a case by case basis.

I do realize not everyone who claim's to be into "Fetish", always is who they are. Of course, that same kind of logic can be said when meeting new people in life, in general. The internet is full of all kind's of people, so when I mention "common sense", I am meaning know who the person is first.

I fully understand "expanding" limit's and nothing is written in stone. As a true D/s relationship blossom's, I certainly don't mind my "limits" being pushed. I just don't believe limit's should be disregarded altogether.


The answer there is if you are playing with someone you don't know, haven't played with before, established some sort of relationship with, then edge play to me (and that is all it is) is about as smart as pickett's charge at Gettysburgh, even if they are using safewords and such. Among other things, even if the sub and top have done this thing together with others, they still don't know how to read the other person, when you know someone (as a top or bottom/dom or sub) you can read them, so for example, if someone I know pushes a limit, I know enough about them to trust them, I read what they are doing and take it as it comes, whereas if it is someone I don't know or haven't played with, it would probably introduce anxiety; a Top/Dom playing with a new person also may not know if a body reaction (like whimpering) is a sign the sub/bottom is enjoying what is going on, or is in distress.

I can't speak for everyone, nor do I wish to, but having been around a lot of edge players, and done it myself, I don't think I have ever seen edge play done by people completely new to each other, meeting at a play party, etc, that the only thing close I have seen is people who haven't played together themselves, but were part of an established group (formal or informal), so they knew each other and each other's styles, so knew what to expect.

As far as limits goes, if someone has a hard limit and someone smashes it, it is what they used to call a bad top. It is one thing to expand limits, to try a bit beyond the edge, it is another to smash them, because at that point, it goes from consensual to non consensual IMO. I mentioned in another post being claustrophobic in certain things, I could never do sensory deprivation for example, or certain kinds of bondage. I have done scenes with someone I trusted to push where I have problems, to try being tied up in tight bondage and then blindfolded, pushing things a bit, seeing how I react, but that isn't someone knowing my limit, putting me in a body suit then putting a full bondage hood on me with no eye openings, no nose opening and the mouth opening controlled via some sort of valve and sitting their laughing when I freak out, big difference.




petitespot -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:32:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

I fully believe in Safe,Sane and Consensual in my fetish life and in my life in general. I know there is also "RACK" Risk-aware consensual kink." Whatever term someone want's to call it, the message is still the same. Safe play. I realize not everyone believes in either concept. I will not engage in any fetish play with that person at all.

I know trust is very important in this "Lifestyle". Especially for the submissive. Being so open and vulnerable for me requires a lot of trust. I also understand why some people are discreet about their "Lifestyle" choices. What other basic commonsense guideline's are there for people in Fetish? Simple suggestion's when first meeting anyone? I know basic common sense but any extra advice, especially from people in this Lifestyle who have experience, would be appreciated. Thank you.


Not everyone wants safe play. I went through a period of time where I met men who I didn't know and let them tie me up and do things. Taking risks doesn't mean that you also throw common sense out the window. I wouldn't have met with them if I had any inkling that they were going to do me real harm (like getting cut up into little pieces kind of harm). It was a risk I took and I got off on it.
When I was with Shorey, there was no way I could tell him what he could and couldn't do to me. If he wanted to give me broken bones and black eyes, I would have taken it. And gotten off on it. These are relationships to me. Not business contracts. Some lasted an afternoon. Some lasted years.

I'm starting to get that itch for a little anonymous beating lately....
It's not a matter of trusting the other person for me. It's a matter of trusting my filtering process and trusting my own gut instincts. If I fuck up, then I have no one to blame but myself.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:33:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Service Top? Sound's like a lame excuse for a Dom to ignore limit's and shame the sub into not doing what the "Dom" want's, even if it was something clearly beyond limit's. Guilt trip doesn't work on me. A sub asking for "safe play" isn't a service top. Sure, there probably are some "service tops" out there. I assume that's for the Dom to figure out. Just like I would need to make sure I don't just "submit" myself to just anyone. Sure,SSC,RACK or likewise, may be overrated and the words's are meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in "safe play" in the first place. It's overall advantage's outweighs what minor disadvantage's it may carry with it. My mind is already made up about this issue. Using "pseudo psychology" method's have no impact on me.

I think you are confusing terms all over the place, or even what safe play is. Unless there is an agreement between a Dom and sub of consent to total non consent on the subs part (i.e the Top/Dom has the right to do what they wish, period, under a kind of blanket consent), there are limits established in play by the top and bottom/Dom and sub, that control what happens, whether it is safewords, negotiations and so forth. What people are trying to say is safe is a relative term, as it is in life, safe often means "with acceptable risk" in life. Authorities tell you that jaywalking is unsafe, yet in NYC people tend to laugh at that, they are willing to take the risk, kids climbing a tree are not heeding warnings from old fussbudgets tht they will fall and break their arm, and of course, the kid in a "Christmas Story" with the bb gun he wants.

No one should ever just submit themselves to someone with no conditions, that isn't about SSC or RACk, that is about not being stupid, and that is not when anyone is saying. When you play with someone, or even enter a relationship, the stuff is negotiated, and it has nothing to do with RACK or SSC about limits, edge players aren't about carte blanche doing anything, it is about people pushing their limits and going beyond what many people do. If I am doing a scene with someone and the person decides to put electrodes on my chest and genitals to do shock play, it means that I trust the person to know how to do that safely, whereas conventional wisdom is electric stuff below the waist, because there is heightened risk in that kind of scene of electrical flow going through the heart, if you don't know what you are doing (for example, though I have never played like that in my personal life, I believe with a tens if the output and return are on the same attachment point, it would be ok, since the pulse never goes beyond that point, but don't use this as gospel. Breaking limits is not edge play, because you can break limits with seemingly innocuous stuff (for example, a sub who had been abused by a parent may not be able to do role play of parents/child "Daddy" or "Mommy' play), that is about going beyond consent, pure and simple.

Edge play is about two (or more) people consenting to do things that may be more risky then what is generally done, like my example of electrical play above the waist which some would see as edge play, or certain kinds of cutting play/ catheters, saline infusions, all kinds of weird medical play, you name it......key is, there are limits there, there is consent, so you are assuming edge play means a top doing things to a sub they haven't consented to, which is frankly abuse.

As far as the service master comment, it is not about limits either. Service master (a term I hate, btw, talk about that in a second) means that the dominant only does the things the sub enjoys, which is not the same as limits. For example, if the dominant would love to give their slave an enema with soap in it and watch them cramp up and squirm, but the sub doesn't like it (but it is not a limit),that is doing something for their pleasure. On the other hand, if the dominant loves doing that, but doesn't, because they know the sub doesn't enjoy it, that is what a service master is, it is basically kind of like what a pro domme does for her clients, gives them what they enjoy, it is a service/client relationship where the client is the sub. Note that that does not cover limits at all, a master or domme who doesn't do something they enjoy because the sub has a limit on it is NOT a service master IMO, they are respecting the limits of who they are playing with, which should be part of consent, always. Pushing a limit may or may not be service master, depending....

I don't like the term Service Master, because quite frankly some us it derogatorily, as if to say "well, you aren't a real master, because you give s what they want, that isn't what a master does'....which is horseshit, because a master does what they feel is right. Jeff said he didn't do thinks his s didn't enjoy, because it was not good for him, and that doesn't make him any less the master, it simply is the way he and his subs/slaves are wired to play, the way they decide to....and that is their business.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:36:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Service Top? Sound's like a lame excuse for a Dom to ignore limit's and shame the sub into not doing what the "Dom" want's, even if it was something clearly beyond limit's. Guilt trip doesn't work on me. A sub asking for "safe play" isn't a service top. Sure, there probably are some "service tops" out there. I assume that's for the Dom to figure out. Just like I would need to make sure I don't just "submit" myself to just anyone. Sure,SSC,RACK or likewise, may be overrated and the words's are meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in "safe play" in the first place. It's overall advantage's outweighs what minor disadvantage's it may carry with it. My mind is already made up about this issue. Using "pseudo psychology" method's have no impact on me.



How about a dose of fucking reality? I don't think you even know enough to know what is "safe", "sane" or even understand consent well, let alone have a standard that even approaches mine.

Define a form of play and define when it is and is not "safe" or "sane"...go on, I dare ya!



Forcing someone to eat my mother in law's cooking, or eating White Castle Hamburgers, is neither safe nor sane......




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:42:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Someone once asked me if our playing style was SSC or Rack, and I said it depends on how much I pissed off my domme *lol* (and obviously, I am not serious, for one thing, didn't need an excuse for her to do a number on me, and secondly, if pissed, she wouldn't play with me, since that would be only encouraging my SAM side....:)


You too? Hahahahahaha... I dont get rewarded for bad behavior either. Im not sure I could classify what we do as SSC... nor as RACK. Whatever it is, it works for us. [:D]

Bingo, that is the key, it works for you. I don't think there is anything wrong with talking about the risks of various kinds of play, and suggesting especially newcomers may want to go slow with things, but that is different than laying down the rules that 'this is safe, sane and consensual, this isn't', I think the key isn't in what we do, it is in the mechanism to getting to the point to do it. I think there are few absolute principals of all of this, and the most prime one is that it is consensual, that both people know the risks, know each other to know where the limits lie,and as long as it is on these terms, and it isn't violated, go for it. With a newbie, it isn't telling them "you shouldn't do x,y or z because they are dangerous', it is 'at this point, you may not be ready for that kind of play, simply because you may not know your limits, you may not know enough to really consent to that stuff'.....I suppose the rough analogy might be the age of consent with sex; in BD/SM terms, it would be the point where someone has enough experience and information about the whole thing to consent to 'riskier' play. I am not talking a literal rule, that is stupid (I might be ready after 6 months, someone else in 6 years), rather, simply, to tell newcomers to find their legs before jumping off the deep end:)




SwitchNSpanky -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:49:22 AM)

I guess if I had to choose an a acronym for my kink play style RACK fits best. I've also been chewing on this topic mentally the past few hours. basically my contention with these anachronims is that they give an impression of a like mind when it comes to kink and I've never ever had a like mined slave. Oh. I've had Slaves with like minds. But never a one glove fits all senecio. I think it's best if slave and Dom openly talk limits so the Dom had something to go on as far as what the slave wants or needs. Then Dom can mix those needs with his or her own to arrive at... nirvanna!

Had one Slave who wouldn't swallow. That was a huge turn off for her. Like a "I don't want to play with you ever again even though your my soul mate-hard limit kinda turn off. But she was my GF at the time and we "worked around it". She discovered she loved to spit cum out around the cock instead. So we both discussed limits. And gently pushed em. In the end the sex was amazing. Truly amazing. She was happy and so was I. Was forcing her to get off by that method within RACK guidlines or what? I'd say it would have been evil and wrong except the Dom made a judgement call that worked wonderfully. That time.

She really enjoyed me "forcing" her to do that while she was cumming. Would that necessarily work next time with a new lady? Prob not.

So boundaries need to be set so all have fun. That's really the point right? We all have fun.

As an aside. I have been told my ex found a cool dude to top her these days. But she almost filed for divorce when he tried to force swallowing. She was pissed. Felt betrayed. Eventually she realized he loved her and was just trying something new. He was not intentionally harming her. But the story does show how limits are necessary. And a Dom needs to find them and respect them.







Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:50:52 AM)

You want an example? How about torture? I am not a pain freak, so seeking a sadist wouldn't make sense for me. Somebody using a whip can take it too far, even when "safeword's" are clearly heard loud and clear. THAT to me is abuse. Not consensual BDSM at that point. I've had that happen to me in the past, so I DO know what I'm talking about.

The cheap words of "Your my slave, so have to do whatever is told to me" is utter bowl shit. That's a abuser pretending to be a "Sadist" or a "Dom/me". This isn't just geared toward's Male "Doms" either. There are certainly some Female Dommes that abuse their "subs" too. I should know, I've met them.

If someone want's a "no limits 24/7" agreement, then that's great for them. But that's not going to work for me. It's one thing to give up control to someone I know and trust has my best interest's at heart. It's a whole other thing to submit myself to some nutjob, which I won't

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

Service Top? Sound's like a lame excuse for a Dom to ignore limit's and shame the sub into not doing what the "Dom" want's, even if it was something clearly beyond limit's. Guilt trip doesn't work on me. A sub asking for "safe play" isn't a service top. Sure, there probably are some "service tops" out there. I assume that's for the Dom to figure out. Just like I would need to make sure I don't just "submit" myself to just anyone. Sure,SSC,RACK or likewise, may be overrated and the words's are meaningless to someone who doesn't believe in "safe play" in the first place. It's overall advantage's outweighs what minor disadvantage's it may carry with it. My mind is already made up about this issue. Using "pseudo psychology" method's have no impact on me.



How about a dose of fucking reality? I don't think you even know enough to know what is "safe", "sane" or even understand consent well, let alone have a standard that even approaches mine.

Define a form of play and define when it is and is not "safe" or "sane"...go on, I dare ya!







tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:55:06 AM)

Very true, which is why I said that maybe new people to the scene need to stick with the "SSC" concept a little more closely. Spankings sound wonderful.... not everyone likes them... some prefer a flogging... some a caning. To think that a newbie would accept a caning when they really mean a spanking... yeah, thats so not going to go over well. Yet I have seen people push for just that. (I actually remember a Dom telling a girl "A caning is just an intense spanking, you will be fine! Trust me!")

For some things I still consider myself in the SSC range.... willing to try.. little to no experience... so not ready for the edgier aspects.

Other things... yeah! lets push that envelope!





Charles6682 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:55:56 AM)

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know when limit's have clearly broken with intent on purpose. Unless someone is new and easily "lead' or easily "brainwashed". I wouldn't recommend someone with severe depression to partake in those kind of event's. I would want that person to feel comfortable and not scared half to death.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 11:39:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know when limit's have clearly broken with intent on purpose.


I hate to break it to but you cant have more than a flicker of experience to make that statement!

For the record, my standard of consent is few people under 25 should be alloeed to give it and if she will regret doing something later in life, again I dont respect her ability to give consent. In otherwords even if they are,saying yes, I may decide they should be saying no.

That said, newbies rarely have the ability to set clear limits and missunderstandings are the most common form of drama after breakups.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 11:59:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Define a form of play and define when it is and is not "safe" or "sane"...go on, I dare ya!



Forced anorexia. Neither safe, nor sane.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:08:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Define a form of play and define when it is and is not "safe" or "sane"...go on, I dare ya!



Forced anorexia. Neither safe, nor sane.


For a day, a month, a year? How do you draw the line between dieting an anarexia? Vomiting? Again when does it cross from roman showers to whatever? What if the person tends to thinness and the dom.likes to ncourage tjat?


I used to teach a negotiation class but I taught it backwards. I had people bring in tight controled scenes that reflected their boundaries. I then had the class violate the shit out of the persons outline ALL WHILE STAYING COMPLETLY INSIDE THEIR LIMITS.

People came away much better able to negotiate but with a vastly improved ability to understand that limits and negotiaton are imperfect processes. So I also taught about how to address and deal with missunderstandings. It actually reduced a fair bit of drama for a while.












LafayetteLady -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:15:24 PM)

Well, first anorexia is dangerous at all times, so never. There is a difference between dieting and anorexia. A dominant who like to encourage his sub's natural thinness would not be responsible if she became anorexic as a result, unless he forced anorexic behavior.

It would help to understand what anorexia is before trying to say that there could be a safe form of forced anorexia. Because it is not simply "extreme dieting."




littlewonder -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:26:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682

You want an example? How about torture? I am not a pain freak, so seeking a sadist wouldn't make sense for me. Somebody using a whip can take it too far, even when "safeword's" are clearly heard loud and clear. THAT to me is abuse. Not consensual BDSM at that point. I've had that happen to me in the past, so I DO know what I'm talking about.

The cheap words of "Your my slave, so have to do whatever is told to me" is utter bowl shit. That's a abuser pretending to be a "Sadist" or a "Dom/me". This isn't just geared toward's Male "Doms" either. There are certainly some Female Dommes that abuse their "subs" too. I should know, I've met them.

If someone want's a "no limits 24/7" agreement, then that's great for them. But that's not going to work for me. It's one thing to give up control to someone I know and trust has my best interest's at heart. It's a whole other thing to submit myself to some nutjob, which I won't




Yup Master is an abuser since I do what he says....period. There are no ifs, ands or buts. It's his way or the highway. And nutjob? Yeah, I suppose we both are. [8|]

ETA: Oh, and I have severe, chronic depression. I guess I should never, ever be in a relationship let alone a bdsm one. [8|]

Once again, you're speaking out your ass. You speak for you and your experiences. Not everyone shares that view.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 12:34:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Well, first anorexia is dangerous at all times, so never. There is a difference between dieting and anorexia. A dominant who like to encourage his sub's natural thinness would not be responsible if she became anorexic as a result, unless he forced anorexic behavior.

It would help to understand what anorexia is before trying to say that there could be a safe form of forced anorexia. Because it is not simply "extreme dieting."


Perhaps I wasn't clear, there is a WIDE grey area betwen VERY safe dieting/weight and CLEARLY unsafe anarexia and that grey area is also going to vary with who you take as experts.




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