RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (Full Version)

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njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:03:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren



Let me give you two examples:

1)A domme has their sub tied up, and is using a bullwhip, the pain gets too intense, and the sub safewords...and the domme keeps going....that is abuse, they have gone beyond limits, and it is not edge play, it is violating consensuality.



For ME this example doesn't automatically mean abuse, violation of consent, or limits. How do YOU get to decide what is abuse, violation of consent or violation of limits for another couple?


If the sub safeworded, the play should have stopped, that means that in their relationship, the sub had the right to stop play with a safeword, and the domme in this case ignored it, and that is abuse...not the whipping, but if you have a safeword, the sub uses it and the dominant ignores it, that is a total breach of what is supposed to go on, and it deserves to be judged. If that was seen in a public play space, if it was evident the sub was trying to safeword and the domme ignored it, the scene would be stopped and probably the domme would be asked to leave.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:08:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske

She's using a common meaning of a safeword. for most people, the red level safeword (for many the only level they have a safeword for) means 'stop everything immediately. So much so that when I run parties, I insist on having 'green means go' in the safeword line up, so that a couple with a long history together who knows when it's okay to continue again after red, does not scare the tourist by making them think 'red means stop' was ignored. Party rules: Once red is declared, everything stops. If they are not going to completely terminate play, but go again after checking, communicating, whatever, the bottom must declare 'green' audibly before play continues. I am not suggesting this as a new for-everyone one twue way rule, just a rule I've used when I've had parties. I get uncomfortable at the thought that someone watching might be made uncomfortable, if it can be avoided - that's my issue, so I try to do something about it.

If a pair does not have a different understanding of safewording than 'stop everything immediately', then to ignore a safe word is abusive and non-consensual. If a couple negotiated a different way to manage safewording, it might not be.

Agreed, I was using the example where a safeword means stop everything, which is pretty common IME, where that had been negotiated and the top/domme chose to ignore it. In a public scene or if I saw something like that as a DM, I would step in and stop the scene...if the couple told me that is how they played, I would tell them that because it was public space, that it is better that when a safeword is used, to stop the scene. Generally, among the crowd I hung out with, if they used the safeword play stopped, until the domme made sure the sub was okay, and maybe switched to something else. If they wanted to continue but indicate to back off or do something else, they might use another word (like yellow) rather than the safeword (red). Especially when a safeword is about a hard limit being breached, it is abuse to break through that. Yes, there could be couples where a safeword means "hey, you may want to stop, not feeling too good", but that is not what I was talking about.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:17:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

I’m going back to the OP for moment.

Charles6682 said, “I fully believe in Safe,Sane and Consensual in my fetish life and in my life in general. I know there is also "RACK" Risk-aware consensual kink." Whatever term someone want's to call it, the message is still the same. Safe play.”

I have watched tourists in public dungeons that were so unskilled with a flogger they were hitting the bottom in the kidneys and wrapping so badly they were hitting other unsafe areas with majors veins near the surface. In my world, impact play on major arteries and organs is dangerous. But the dungeon monitor did nothing.

Later when a well known and highly skilled whip artist flicked their bottom’s long hair off their neck with a single tail (it's part of the routine), the dungeon monitor went bat-shit crazy and tried to stop the scene because the Top was “hitting the neck . . . no hitting the neck”. I dragged his ass to the dungeon owner who set him straight about the well known whip artist and that their skill level made it safe.

I bet that tourist, their victim and the dungeon monitor all chant the SSC mantra on a regular basis. My point is that believing and chanting SSC will not keep you safe. Only a skilled Top and educated bottom will keep a scene safe.

Charles6682 said, “What other basic commonsense guideline's are there for people in Fetish? Simple suggestion's when first meeting anyone? I know basic common sense but any extra advice, especially from people in this Lifestyle who have experience, would be appreciated. Thank you.”

In my earlier reply I said I was “lamenting about the good ol' days when BDSM had an edge and you had to earn your chops or work your way into the community.” SimplyMichael eloquently explained that "edge play" isn't black and white . . . . The "edge" is different for different people.” That is also true for a Top’s skill level and a bottom’s education level. If the bottom doesn’t know anything about that type of play, they aren’t informed . . . hence, informed consent is impossible.

With these perspectives, my common sense advice is to educate yourself on your areas of interest. Read up on the subject in books published by respected authors, attend workshops and watch how the experts do it. Then you will be informed, know what your Top is supposed to be doing and you will have the vocabulary to communicate with them effectively.

I think everyone would be better off putting your SSC flags down, picking up a book and attending some workshops.

I think it is based in two things, which I think Resident Sadist would agree to (I hope, anyway:).

1)Understand about what the various aspects of play are about, watch other people play, do various things at play parties and (respectfully) when they are done and wound down, ask them about it; go to demonstrations that BD/SM groups put on, read books, etc, to familiarize yourself with what this means.

2)Know the person you are playing with, and trust accordingly. If you are playing with an acquaintance you don't know (or don't even know their reputation), it would be pretty stupid to do intense scenes with them as a sub, like doing blood play, heavy duty corporal, you name it, trusting what they say. I have played with people I don't know directly, and done some heavy scenes, but I also knew people that knew them well, people whose judgement I trusted, and they said the person was experienced...whereas you may run into some clunk in a club wearing jeans and a leather vest, who says he is experienced because he watched kink.com videos and read the Gor books *ick*.....

I agree with RS, safety comes about with knowledge and understanding. The guy with the single tail whip he mentioned, who has tremendous skill with one, can get away with flicking away hair, the doofus tourist from Dubuque, Iowa playing with his girlfriend in a club trying to use a single tail is not safe doing that....ya know, kind of like those tv stunt shows that say "don't try this at home?".....

Rather then making it a protocol, like SSC or RACK, I think the better advice is play to the level of your experience, and allow it to grow. On top of everything else, an experienced dominant with an inexperienced sub can lead to problems, because the dominant may be capable of doing edge play, but the sub may freak out and lose control because they haven't done that stuff and don't understand it.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:28:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw

Charles,

I play with people I don't know ALL the time.
Both in private sessions as a proswitch and for my videos.
I am adult, I don't need or want anyone to come to my rescue.

The ONLY time I have anyone but me present during a pro sessions is if I am the bottom and that is just as much for the tops protection as mine.

I don't think you can say "know someone first" is common sense. That may work for you but it wont for everyone and insulting to those that choose to play another way.

To answer your question, "when does someone differ consensual bdsm from abuse?" That line is different for everyone. Again, what you may consider abusive I may consider tender and loving and vice versa.

I have to say, that when I read your statement or question about torture. I shook my head. I get that you aren't "pain freak" but you clearly made a choice to get involved in a scene with someone who was using a whip on you. Which frankly I don't understand but then you go on to say that it was abuse because that person didn't stop the moment you used your safe word. To ME throwing the words torture and abuse around is about YOU trying to garner an emotional response form others.

Some of the play, that I personally enjoy is face sitting. For ME it is a type of breath play. My bottoms, obviously can't say they need to breath so they tap me. However, just because you tap doesn't mean that very second I am doing to let you have a breath or let you take a long breath. Does that make me abusive?





That would depend on the sub, if they are okay with breath play in general (or face sitting), and understand the way you play, then it would be fine. If you did that to a new person and they could be in distress and you refuse to let them breath, it could be problematic. One of the things that can happen is scene play is someone is doing something they have done a lot of times, and be fine, and then hit a situation where a bad reaction happens, and you not letting them breath when they tap might cause an even worse problem..obviously that is hypothetical, but there can be a thin line between play and abuse, and there are not set rules for it. As long as the bottom is aware of the way the top plays,and is okay with it, and as long as there is a method to indicate real distress, then it isn't abuse. On the other hand, if a sub appears to be in distress and the dominant thinks it is funny to keep doing what they are doing, then I think it would be abuse, at the very least, abuse of trust.





LafayetteLady -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:34:47 PM)

Michael,

I agree there are a lot of seriously fucked up people. I am glad to see though that while you may not believe in the SSC or RACK mantra, you aren't afraid to at least try to draw a line in the sand somewhere. Even though I agree, sometimes you feel like you are swimming against the current.




JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:35:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSarahK
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/03/thinking-more-clearly-about-bdsm-versus-abuse/ Here is a less biased link.These are all over cyberspace.

Please... I already had someone toying with me over in the P&R forum earlier. I'm afraid all my "being toyed with" patience is kind of exhausted. So I'll pass on the 20 questions game.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 10:38:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSarahK

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/03/thinking-more-clearly-about-bdsm-versus-abuse/ Here is a less biased link.These are all over cyberspace.


Should we start posting links to all the rapes that happen outside of BDSM?

If you don't like what happens, deal with it in a real way by being active in your local community. Join a rape crisis center so you can be available as a kink friendly ear.

In other words, you spouting out link after link here isn't doing a thing for the cause you are trying to promote.




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/8/2013 11:16:59 PM)

I had the feeling she would run.




TheLilSquaw -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 6:11:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw


quote:

ORIGINAL: evesgrden


You personally might not want someone scared half to death, but there's a HUGE market for that. Sure there's the bedroom stuff, edge play, mind fucks, resistance play, there's also Stephen King novels, horror movies, rollercoasters, jumping out of airplanes, haunted houses, etc etc. Being scared half to death is big business with kink being the smallest piece.




I am one of the people who LOVE being scared to death.
Although I do enjoy edge play I also enjoy that such outside of fetish play.

Horror movies, horror novels, studying serial killers, roller coasters, haunted houses, bungee jumping, and motorcycles.

Heck two of my dream vacations is going to Vlad's castle and the Jack the Ripper tour.



And it could easily be argued that much of that is neither safe nor sane. Do people really need to be told "don't jump out of a plane till you know wtf you're doing?". And even when you do know, is it really that safe or sane to jump out of a perfectly good airplane?



You're right much of what I enjoy, wouldn't be seen as safe or sane to others. Which is fine for them but they don't get to determine that for me. To ME living your life in fear of what MIGHT happen isn't safe or sane. Hell, to ME that isn't living period.

I tend to think if you are shown to how to sky dive by a professional (take the course), that is indeed safe and sane.

Again who determines what is safe or sane?
Do you get to determine for everyone?
Do I get to determine for everyone?





njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 8:54:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSarahK

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/real_abuse_in_bdsm/ The real truth about the BDSM community


That simply is HER truth. It is not THE truth. But how nice of you to try and present it as such. Incidentally, why is your profile hidden?

I agree. I think the article raises some real issues, but they aren't exactly unknown to anyone who has spent any time in the scene, and this is written by someone who is obviously biased against the scene (the cute little quote about 'he said, she said' is indicative of that, it is written sneeringly to a very real issue true of any sexual assault, that finding the truth can be difficult, and the implication of the way she wrote it is if someone cries sexual abuse, it is real....just ask Oliver Janovich about that one).

The woman claiming that all female subs she knows have been assaulted and claiming this as truth is so far over the edge it is idiotic. Yes, i know of women who have been sexually assaulted (and knowing more then a few gay leather guys, same there), but to make broad claims like this is idiotic.
Among other things, it usually (but not) always seems to happen when someone plays with someone they don't know and play privately, and guess what, this is no different then a vanilla woman meeting some guy at a bar or club and a bad thing happening, and that happens not infrequently....

Likewise, from personal experience, I think there is a reluctance in the community, based on my experience, to acknowledge that a)this goes on and b)act on it, because there is the culture (not wrongly) that it isn't anyone else's job to step in or that everything is okay, we don't have the right to judge and such, and the problem is, there is a very fine line there at times. Someone got their nose bent out of joint when I wrote about a safeword being violated, how I was judging someone else's style of playing, etc, by calling it abuse, and that is a pretty good example of the fine line. If someone has negotiated a safeword where that means stop, period, and the dominant keeps going, it is abuse; if in their relationship, a safeword means I am near the edge, take it easy or move onto something else, it isn't; my point was the first one, which is the most common flavor of the meaning of safeword out there, it is what I usually heard at workshops for beginners, and so forth.

On the other hand, if a sub negotiates a scene and says no sex, and the guy has sex with her when tied up, that is rape, and I have seen real life examples of situations like this where there were excuses for the dominant, that it wasn't really rape because in effect if she consented to play, and he was dominant and therefore had the right to do this, and I was shocked, because that is bullshit. Pure and simple, abuse is when consensuality has been violated, whether it is running through an agreed dead stop safe word or having intercourse, and that binds a dominant and sub equally.

That said, the whole thing about not wanting to be a difficult sub, the culture of not safewording, is the fault of the sub. It is true as a sub (well, at least my experience) that you try not to safeword, you want to keep going, to please the Top/Dominant or to keep up the sensation play, but to do it because of what people with think when you are in distress, well, the only word I can think of is stupid and childish. There is a difference between someone who negotiates a scene and then safewords all over the place (that is someone who shouldn't be playing IMO, means they are ready or their idea of their limits doesn't match reality), but Janet Hardy is right, claiming it is community pressure not to safeword is garbage. I have been around the scene community 30 years, in one way or the other, been around hardcore lifestyle people,leather families, people who were part of the old guard, you name it, and I saw very few people who thought with jaundice towards someone who had used a safeword or when a sub safeworded when it got too much. Sure, there are subs who refuse to safeword, and there are times when a sub is too far gone in subspace to safeword ,it is why I believe a dominant is part of the checks on a scene, to read a sub, but still, it is basically a lie to claim that most subs will not safeword for fear of being called difficult.

The article takes a real issue in the community (which all communities have) and turns it into a generalized denunciation, and my guess is the author is some second wave feminist who thinks BD/SM is nothing more then a cover for abuse of women (course, also leaves out, not surprisingly, that men are abused, too, but I guess in her pointed head, feminist analysis, if a man gets abused, especially by a woman, well, that is no big deal *grrr*).
There are issues with abuse in the community, always have been, Resident Sadist talks about the early days in the gay leather community where 'bad tops' and such were using it as a cover for rape and abuse, so it is nothing new. And yes, there is a reluctance because the community is so much based in what is abuse to me is fun to someone else, to step in, and that can lead to overlooking something bad going on, but it also doesn't mean it is particularly widespread.




njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 9:03:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

That is about San Francisco and I feel very mixed by that. There is a lot of seriously fucked up shit that goes on but to SOME extent it is young girls making bad decisions helped by a community that no longer stands up to wrong doing. Some of the crap that I know about kink.com would make people sick but its an exploitative industry.

What complicates it is that it often isn't black and white. You take a scene that glorifies being "edgy" and "extreme". Mix young newbies with poor judgement, bad boundaries with guys who are always looking for the newest pussy and get laid because they are "edgy" and "extreme" and its a bad mix.

Part of the reason I have distanced myself from the scene is because of fucked up shit I have seen. I used to speak out but its pointless, wagons get circled and they will crush you for speaking out. At the same time, I know many, many people in the scene who have never had a negative experience.

Most scenes are pretty low key, the porn industry pollutes everything it touches and most scenes don't have to deal with that. Just the normal issues of sex and relationships.

I know in my time in the scene, I learned a great deal. I get upset sometimes because it could be much more but is rarely more than mundane meetings of rotary and PTA people.


Kink.com is a porn site, it isn't the 'community', and to claim that that has anything to do with the broader scene is a bit off the deep end. I know people in the bay area leather scene, more then a few, and I never have heard of problems in any greater number than I did here in NYC.

Kink.com has many problems with it, the play in their scenes is pretty extreme, and from what I have been told, they hire young women who may or may not be particularly scene aware and take them to extremes. Their whole vibe is look how far we push things, their guerrila filming where they do filming in front of a crowd of people literally taken off the street to use as extras in filming (I think it is kink.com doing this one, read about it recently), is a recipe for problems IMO.

I am not saying there aren't predators out there, or problems within the established community in dealing with abuse, but often when abuse happens it isn't leather people doing it, it usually is some schmuck on the fringes of the scene (someone like some weird guy who used to show up at TES meetings , talking about how he went on Maury Povich and Jerry Springer 'representing the community' *gag*, and was always with some woman who looked like she knew zero about BD/SM) who manages to get some young woman to play with him, and then abuses her.





njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 9:22:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSarahK
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2011/08/03/thinking-more-clearly-about-bdsm-versus-abuse/ Here is a less biased link.These are all over cyberspace.

Please... I already had someone toying with me over in the P&R forum earlier. I'm afraid all my "being toyed with" patience is kind of exhausted. So I'll pass on the 20 questions game.


I suspect this is a troll deciding to throw out some flame bait to try and get people riled up. First of all, anyone using kink.com or porn as proof of abuse in the community should go stick their heads in the toilet and flush it, because that is porn, it is about producing a commercial product, not BD/SM relationships, they hire women for those scenes, these are not lifestyle D and s's in there, so it is a totally different ball game, and expecting scene people to police porn is idiotic, to say the least.

Basically, I read the link above, and it is feminist mental masturbation trying to find a point in all the theory and so forth, which of course drove me up the wall. She uses a clip from kink.com (see above), where the guy slaps her, and she says "I didn't negotiate that" and he says basically 'tough', and she uses that as proof, which would be funny if it weren't, because a)this is a porn film and more importantly, b)that 'abuse' could well have been part of the script for the shoot, where the idea of the particular scene is that he does something nonconsensual, the key idea being, we don't know what went on off camera. It would be like kink.com filming a guy tying a girl up and seemingly raping her, is it rape, or did the woman consent to do that scene in the film as if it were rape? You don't know.

There are grains of truth to what they are writing about, but it reminds me when the big focus came about on date rape and such back in the 80's (being in college, it was a big thing). In some ways, it is directly relevant, at some schools they were promoting this idea that if a guy went to bed with a girl, he get consent for everything (or two girls or two guys, least they were fair), they had this 'sex code' of sorts (I seem to recall the progenitor was a place called Antioch College), where anything you wanted to do, you had to get consent, so if someone wanted to touch the girls breast, he would have to ask, or kiss, or whatever, in the act of having sex....comedians had a field day with it, but much of this was driven by hysteria over date rape (which was a very real problem, mind you) and what was basically a feminist driven response to it, that you couldn't just consent to have sex with someone, you had to consent to everything, with the insipid idea behind it that if a man goes to bed with a women, he has such power that in effect, if a guy sleeps with a women, he is de facto committing rape unless the women has consented to everything he does...and it is the same mentality.




SatinWhip -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 9:46:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles6682
I fully believe in Safe,Sane and Consensual in my fetish life and in my life in general.


Great thread topic. When this one finally runs out of steam maybe a thread on fin dommes? No limits is always another good candidate.




JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:15:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren
they hire women for those scenes, these are not lifestyle D and s's in there, so it is a totally different ball game, and expecting scene people to police porn is idiotic, to say the least.

Ahhhhh, we got a feminist on a BDSM site discussing abuse. Thanks. Those facts right there are enough to tell me how to disposition this. As a matter of fact, the moment "feminist" and "abuse" appeared in the same sentence in any context my brain is already looking for the hidden dagger.




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:40:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

That is

Part of the reason


Kink.com is a porn site, it isn't the 'community', and to claim that that has anything to do with the broader scene is a bit off the deep end. I know people in the bay area leather scene, more then a few, and I never have heard of problems in any greater number than I did here in NY.


Then you clearly are on the outside looking in. The big kids all play at kink.com because its the cool club card for young pussy. The biggest events in SF, outside of Folsom Stret faire are all held by kink.com insiders. They hold classes and the rest. As for NY and TES, oh god, tons of drama, LOL!




JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:46:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Then you clearly are on the outside looking in. The big kids all play at kink.com because its the cool club card for young pussy. The biggest events in SF, outside of Folsom Stret faire are all held by kink.com insiders. They hold classes and the rest. As for NY and TES, oh god, tons of drama, LOL!

Thanks for that clarification Michael. So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... or is the online projection of some specific community? Still though, can you really draw parallels between what these folks get up to in a paid porn scene vs. what they get up to without the wallet attached?




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:48:42 AM)

quote:

I suspect this is a troll deciding to throw out some flame bait to try and get people riled up.


Uh... no... I have a feeling this is someone we have been interacting with and got butt hurt because we didnt see their way of things




SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:52:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Then you clearly are on the outside looking in. The big kids all play at kink.com because its the cool club card for young pussy. The biggest events in SF, outside of Folsom Stret faire are all held by kink.com insiders. They hold classes and the rest. As for NY and TES, oh god, tons of drama, LOL!

Thanks for that clarification Michael. So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... or is the online projection of some specific community? Still though, can you really draw parallels between what these folks get up to in a paid porn scene vs. what they get up to without the wallet attached?



Yes AND no, porn isn't real but art imitates life but people emulate mass media. Just life fet's emphasis on photos puts emotional connection/intensity secondard to appearances.

Kink.com's 4th floor is mostly real locals, most who have achieved status in one or both worlds.




tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:54:13 AM)

quote:

kink.com


the one true way!




RedMagic1 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 10:59:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Kink.com's 4th floor is mostly real locals, most who have achieved status in one or both worlds.

That's my impression, too. I've never been to the Upper Floor, but I know someone who gets regular invites, and we've talked about the events. My friend is definitely an "amateur lifestyle" player, not a pro sex worker in any sense.




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