RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual

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RedMagic1 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 11:03:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... Chicken and egg problem here maybe? Kink.com developed a gravitational pull on the real world because of multiple floors of great venue and fancy toys. I don't know enough about the history to say exactly what happened when. Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living?

SimplyMichael -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 11:14:37 AM)
Look at prodom/porn. Guys get wired for "that" but it is so artificial that most who do it are prodoms. Real world dominant women TEND to bemoan the fact that what most submissive men seek isn't real but a 2D fetish delivery device. Porn creating an unfortunate "reality"

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 11:54:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael That is Part of the reason Kink.com is a porn site, it isn't the 'community', and to claim that that has anything to do with the broader scene is a bit off the deep end. I know people in the bay area leather scene, more then a few, and I never have heard of problems in any greater number than I did here in NY. Then you clearly are on the outside looking in. The big kids all play at kink.com because its the cool club card for young pussy. The biggest events in SF, outside of Folsom Stret faire are all held by kink.com insiders. They hold classes and the rest. As for NY and TES, oh god, tons of drama, LOL! It could be, but if 'the big kids' all play at Kink.com and are doing it on camera, they no longer are playing BD/SM lifestyle, it is commercial, and as such it gets corrupted by the need to 'push' things for commercial consumption. The minute it is being video'ed for a professional website who after all are selling the more outrageous the better, they are in a totally different realm. If what you are saying is true (and on that, i cannot say, not living in that scene, not being there),then I think the problem is that those who play there have, as you say, allowed themselves to become corrupted. But for every 'big kid' who plays at Kink.com I would bet good money there are a lot of BD/SM people who don't. I would hazard a guess that kink.com attracts people who are more likely to go to the edge and beyond, so it may not be a very good indication of the community as a whole, as you say, kink.com probably attracts the kind of weirdos I saw at TES meetings, the 'dominants' who basically see being that as an excuse to do what they want with, as you call it, 'fresh pussy'......I have met that type plenty of times, it isn't just limited to BD/SM, I saw it being trans, automatic assumptions and so forth..... I am sure kink.com offers events on their space, workshops, etc, which commercially is there to establish their 'cache' in the scene, and also as an advertising boost that unlike other sites, kink.com is 'real'......so if crap happens there, it represents the commercial poisoning the lifestyle scene, but I fault those who accept the corruption in the first place, not the entire scene. It reminds me of a statement about when you mix church and state, you end up with an oppressive state and a corrupted church. Mix commercial S/M (kink.com) with lifestyle players, and you end up with corruption, because porn is all about the unreal, the fantasy, which can lead to abuse. Yeah, there is drama at TES, Haven't been a member for a while, but not in the same way, there it is more like people fighting like at a PTA meeting over bullshit.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 11:57:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Then you clearly are on the outside looking in. The big kids all play at kink.com because its the cool club card for young pussy. The biggest events in SF, outside of Folsom Stret faire are all held by kink.com insiders. They hold classes and the rest. As for NY and TES, oh god, tons of drama, LOL! Thanks for that clarification Michael. So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... or is the online projection of some specific community? Still though, can you really draw parallels between what these folks get up to in a paid porn scene vs. what they get up to without the wallet attached? Yes AND no, porn isn't real but art imitates life but people emulate mass media. Just life fet's emphasis on photos puts emotional connection/intensity secondard to appearances. Kink.com's 4th floor is mostly real locals, most who have achieved status in one or both worlds. They might be real locals, but basically, they have crossed the line from lifestyle to pro by doing what they are doing. If that is what most people in the SF do, if kink.com has become the center of the leather community, then I would agree with you, it is troubling to say the least, it means a group of people have led themselves down the path of narcissism and worse, and that is sad. If they need to see themselves on video like that, if this is what it means to them, I feel sorry for them.

SDFemDom4cuck -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 11:58:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Look at prodom/porn. Guys get wired for "that" but it is so artificial that most who do it are prodoms. Real world dominant women TEND to bemoan the fact that what most submissive men seek isn't real but a 2D fetish delivery device. Porn creating an unfortunate "reality" Amen brother! If I had a nickle for every "cuck" that actually knew what the reality of a cuck relationship was like I would have a nickle. Same goes with the subs that expect stilettos leather and a whip in hand 24/7. I'm just as Dominant in my gnome pajamas and moo cow slippers as I am in anything else. /rant over/

RedMagic1 -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:00:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren it means a group of people have led themselves down the path of narcissism and worse, and that is sad. If they need to see themselves on video like that, if this is what it means to them, I feel sorry for them. WTF? Not everything there is filmed, by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe if you stopped talking when you were totally ignorant, you might learn something new. I imagine, though, that you'll respond to this with another wall of text containing lots of opinion and no data. In case you are interested, I stopped reading your posts weeks ago, because I realized they were more shallow than they first appeared. And this is a perfect example of your intellectual weakness.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:02:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... Chicken and egg problem here maybe? Kink.com developed a gravitational pull on the real world because of multiple floors of great venue and fancy toys. I don't know enough about the history to say exactly what happened when. Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? The real question is at what cost...groups rent out high end professional houses of domination for that very same reason, because they have really great facilities, but it doesn't mean they are professional. If I am understanding this correctly (and not being from SF, I can't talk about it that accurately), it sounds like basically they have this incredible space and have established this kind of idea that if you get invited to the 4th floor, you are some sort of elite player,bd/sm royalty.......and of course, people fall for that, who doesn't want to be one of the elite? Meanwhile, of course, kink.com films them playing and sells it, and along the way, there is encouragement to go further and further.

JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:16:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? What do you mean "what is real world?" The real world is that place where you can smell other people. I'd have thought we all knew that by now. They are not the same as the plots and characters in the films they make. They are obviously real (I don't know them but I take your word for it). Insofar as the films, I haven't seen any so I can't really judge how representative they might be of any/all/some BDSM relationships but I'm pretty sure their purpose was not to be documentary.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:18:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... Chicken and egg problem here maybe? Kink.com developed a gravitational pull on the real world because of multiple floors of great venue and fancy toys. I don't know enough about the history to say exactly what happened when. Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? Kind of apples and oranges. If they are lifestyle D/s, and that is how they live their lives, that is real; if on the other hand, they were 'master' and 'slave' only for video shoots, it would be fake. It sounds like in real life they are master and slave, live that way, but if they do D/s videos, they probably seperate that from their real life. Being in porn doesn't make you fake, tailoring your relationship/your play to fit what audiences want is, and that is the problem with kink.com IMO, you get people tailoring their pay style to fit the image of what the wankers who watch it want, and it can lead to pushing too, too far, because far out sells; whipping someone with a flogger is boring, ripping open their back with a bullwhip sells. Fingering a female sub tied up and teasing her and not letting her cum is boring; fisting her is hot....and so forth. It isn't that the people who play at kink.com are fake, it is that porn by its very nature is fake, that once you film something there is the automatic impetus to do 'what sells', and what sells is often things that wouldn't necessarily go on in 'real life' bd/sm, the camera and the audience wants more and more... Someone else hit the nail on the head, they used the analogy of a pro domme relationship versus a lifestyle one. The pro domme relationship is the equivalent on a filmed kink.com session, in that the pro domme is 'servicing' the client, giving them what they want, with kink.com they are servicing the client, who are the people who pay to watch stuff on kink.com, and the problem is the same thing, serving someone else can detract away from the relationship. People playing on kink.com's facilities are going to shape their play to fit what the website/audience wants, consciously or unconsciously, and it also is going to lead to a lot more abuse IMO, because the far out, the wild, sells a lot more to the audience. Likewise, guys who play with pro dommes are not submitting, it is the other way around, I have seen plenty of clients of pro dommes who really think they are 'serving', and for the most part, it is bullshit; likewise, those who play at kink.com are not going to be totally in control of their play, their relationship, because those running the show hold out the carrot and stick that if you don't go out there, don't fill their needs, you won't be invited to the 4th floor again, and you won't be 'elite' any more. (And since I don't know the exact details of how they operate, the above is based on what people have said and what I have read about it). Personally, if someone told me they were elite because they got to the 4th floor, that if I didn't get invited there I must be a loser, I would laugh at them. First of all, it almost kind of sounds like what I saw in the 1980's, after Madonna came out with her 'sex' video/book/album and all these madonna wannabee's started showing up at fetish and bd/sm events and such because it was cool, it almost sounds (and S Michael can comment on it) like all these 'hipster' 20's types are doing the same thing with the 4th floor. It is sad if people are tempted by the incredible facilities and toys into thinking that this is more real or elite; I understand the attraction, who doesn't love bondage tables and chairs and suspension devices and electrical units and so forth, but when that becomes the drawing factor, well, let's just say I find that sad.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:31:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren it means a group of people have led themselves down the path of narcissism and worse, and that is sad. If they need to see themselves on video like that, if this is what it means to them, I feel sorry for them. WTF? Not everything there is filmed, by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe if you stopped talking when you were totally ignorant, you might learn something new. I imagine, though, that you'll respond to this with another wall of text containing lots of opinion and no data. In case you are interested, I stopped reading your posts weeks ago, because I realized they were more shallow than they first appeared. And this is a perfect example of your intellectual weakness. No, I will simply respond that I could give crap less whether you read my posts or not, or what you think or don't think of my intellectual achievements or failures. I am guessing that you are one of the 'elites' who plays at kink.com, or are some way are involved with those running the show, and if so, it wouldn't surprise me you would react like this to criticism. Among other things, what I object to is the very concept of the 4th floor invites being for 'elites' or 'serious players', when I started out in the scene, as a novice, I saw a lot of that, and with the help of people who were serious lifestyle players, I learned how much that was a crock of bullshit, that those who pretend to be elite, who come off as being 'authentic', are generally a bunch of fucked up people. If they want to establish hierarchy (and I am not talking about leather protocols and such, that is a different thing), they are welcome to it, but I won't exactly be in awe of them, either. As far as kink.com goes, I noted in my posts that I don't have direct knowledge, and was commenting simply from what I have heard, both on here and reading, and my impressions of it. The fact that it is tied to a commercial porn website does make it troubling, for the very fact that commercial porn has a very different audience then real life people, it is meant to be fantasy. It is kind of like something that has come up recently, that because of the availablity of porn, some young people are basing their idea of sex on porn, which is ridiculous, because porn is a fantasy, not reality. Almost every porn movie has a woman having a guy cum on her face; while some women in real life enjoy that, it is probably relatively few who would 'enjoy' it the way the woman on screen does. Even if everything is not filmed at kink.com, I would be surprised if they don't invite people there who they know if they do film will give them what Ed Sullivan called 'A good shew".... And I hate to tell you, but my opinions and ideas are worth as much as anyone else's on here..and all I have to say is, rather than actually talking about anything, you attack people, or bring up stuff that has no meaning. Nina Hartley and her master sound like they are very much lifestyle people, and nothing changes that, but if they did videos, what goes on in the video has nothing to do with real life, because a video is meant to appease to fantasies of others. Those who play at kink.com are not fake, I never said that, what I did say, as with if Nina Hartley and her M did videos, is that the act of being part of a commercial site changes the dynamic, and it is troubling, and if filmed, it is a lot more likely that someone will go over the edge then if it is not filmed IMO, because when filming, it is product to appeal to wankers.Nina Hartley and her husband are pros at doing porn, and they know the difference between porn and reality (and yes, I have known more then a few people who do porn movies, and they will tell you it bares about as much resemblance to real life sex as plastic fruit does to an apple, it is mostly fake)

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:35:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? What do you mean "what is real world?" The real world is that place where you can smell other people. I'd have thought we all knew that by now. They are not the same as the plots and characters in the films they make. They are obviously real (I don't know them but I take your word for it). Insofar as the films, I haven't seen any so I can't really judge how representative they might be of any/all/some BDSM relationships but I'm pretty sure their purpose was not to be documentary. Thanks, Jeff, you hit the nail on the head. I have seen some of the stuff on kink.com's website, and it represents relatively extreme play/situations, it definitely is more in line with the fantasy of bd/sm play, with very rough play, the old cruel bitch degrading the sub, etc......and my point is simply that if lifestyle players go there, they are moving into a culture where much of it is about fantasy (even the fantastic equipment and toys), it is aimed at appeasing other's fantasies, and when play is filmed at a commercial place, where the intent is to make money, there is going to be strong pressure to go to the extremes, which the wankers want. Two people IRL may be very heavy players, do extreme scenes, but they do that to please themselves, whereas when it is commercial, it is to please a bunch of wankers and it could drive people over the edge, which is my point, and seems to be what Michael said as well.

TheLilSquaw -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 12:52:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC Thanks for that clarification Michael. So basically kink.com is a web site that has roots into the real world... or is the online projection of some specific community? Still though, can you really draw parallels between what these folks get up to in a paid porn scene vs. what they get up to without the wallet attached? There is some reality based in the sessions and some of the models are also lifestylers. I find it funny when folks scream how fetish videos are all fake. Many production companies do NOT mock sessions, paid models or not.

TheLilSquaw -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 1:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? Exactly! Nina and Ernest are not only known in the adult industry but in their local scene. So am I fake because like Nina I make fetish videos for a living? quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Mix commercial S/M (kink.com) with lifestyle players, and you end up with corruption, because porn is all about the unreal, the fantasy, which can lead to abuse. As a lifestyle who is not only a fetish model but a producer I am going to obviously call bullshit. I work with tons of fetish models, who not only make a living doing this but enjoy the lifestyle in their personal lives as well. Yes you see the meat of the scene, no one I have worked with mocks scenes. These are real fetish sessions. PERIOD. You obviously are biased against those in the adult industry, specifically the fetish side but frankly you don't know squat about the industry from these posts.

crazyml -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 1:14:37 PM)
FR l think threads like this one are important, not because they get us closer to a "definition" but because they are a great reminder that there are very few things that can be neatly defined. Personally I think debates over ssc Vs RACK are a little pointless. Ideas like "safe","sane", or "risk" are all pretty blurry once you come back from the boundaries. The one word that both share that should be pretty unambiguous is "consentual" but even that is complicated in some dynamics. For me, neither term is a mantra, neither confers any additional safety - they are both simply warnings. If you don't consider things like safety (or if you prefer "risk"), if you don't consider consent, then the chances are you're exposing yourself and others to potential unpleasantness. Now there are a bunch of posters on this thread who have enough experience and wisdom not to have to run down a checklist of letters every time they do shit.. but I'd hazard a guess that if you old timers were asked you'd be able to show that you had those things covered (and I'm sure that was the original intent of the coinng of ssc.. it was a call to think, not to slavishly follow). So when s newcomer rocks up, I'm not going to give them a hard time for viewing whichever acronym they've chosen as important, but I am going to ty to get them to loom beyond nthe checklist. ..

littlewonder -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 2:21:55 PM)
My experience with kink.comer's has been that those who partake in that are those who like drama and attention and have some kind of need to feel part of a clique so they can go around and say "I am important because I belong to kink.com" as they push out their chest and swing their hair back.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 2:53:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheLilSquaw quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 Besides, what's real world? Nina Hartley has called Ernest Greene "master" for 20+ years, and their entire house is a dungeon. Are they fake because they make porn for a living? Exactly! Nina and Ernest are not only known in the adult industry but in their local scene. So am I fake because like Nina I make fetish videos for a living? quote: ORIGINAL: njlauren Mix commercial S/M (kink.com) with lifestyle players, and you end up with corruption, because porn is all about the unreal, the fantasy, which can lead to abuse. As a lifestyle who is not only a fetish model but a producer I am going to obviously call bullshit. I work with tons of fetish models, who not only make a living doing this but enjoy the lifestyle in their personal lives as well. Yes you see the meat of the scene, no one I have worked with mocks scenes. These are real fetish sessions. PERIOD. You obviously are biased against those in the adult industry, specifically the fetish side but frankly you don't know squat about the industry from these posts. I have seen some fetish videos shot, and I also have met people who have done them, and it isn't about mocking them (though a lot of them are, they are staged, what looks like a horrific suspension scene is a lot of smoke and mirrors, for example). I am not saying the stuff filmed at kink.com is fake, what I am saying is that when you are filming something for the porn industry, it is not about the people playing, it is about the audience i.e who they want to sell to, and that determines what goes on more then what the people are into. It is why there is such a market for 'amateur' videos, because porn ones often appear fake or appear like people acting. I have seen what kink.com puts out, and it doesn't have the same flavor that scene between people I have seen in real life have, it tends to be towards the extreme, the edge of things, more brutal, call it what you want, which isn't surprising, because that sells. And if there is pressure to go more extreme, in my opinion there is also a lot more chance of it going into abuse, it is an opinion, no more and no less. I am not calling for banning kink.com, I am not saying people shouldn't play there, simply giving an opinion FWIW. It doesn't make those who appear in those films unreal, I would be guilty of the same thing prob many of those who do the 4th floor stuff do, which is look down on others, I simply said that the pressure of making something that appeals to the client base changes the dynamics of any play..it doesn't make it any less real per se, just makes it different, the same way that playing in a public venue is different then playing in private, or playing with someone you are in a relationship with and someone you aren't. If playing at kink.com floats their boat, if all the neat equipment,and being around 'the elite' thrills them, be my guest shrug. If someone says they are lifestyle, they are, whatever it is, but I also call as bullshit the idea that somehow something like kink.com and those associated with it are elite or anything else, and also that in some ways being in a commercial venue changes the nature of play, if it is being filmed.

njlauren -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 2:54:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder My experience with kink.comer's has been that those who partake in that are those who like drama and attention and have some kind of need to feel part of a clique so they can go around and say "I am important because I belong to kink.com" as they push out their chest and swing their hair back. I like that description, have seen that before, whether it was old guard leather people saying only they knew the way, TPE people saying that was the only true D/s, etc......wouldn't surprise me in the least bit.

tazzygirl -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 2:55:54 PM)
Whats the "one true way"? The one that works for you!

ResidentSadist -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 3:31:07 PM)
Are you thumping a bible or are you pointing to that article because it shows SSC is pointless and common sense is priceless? Either way, it is like trying to use Jerry Springer as an example to teach morals . . . no matter what your intentions, you look like an asshat. quote: ORIGINAL: MissSarahK http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/real_abuse_in_bdsm/ The real truth about the BDSM community

JeffBC -> RE: Safe,Sane and Consensual (6/9/2013 4:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: crazyml l think threads like this one are important, not because they get us closer to a "definition" but because they are a great reminder that there are very few things that can be neatly defined. QFT!

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