RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (Full Version)

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YN -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:22:35 PM)


'For the glory of God and the King of Spain" was the traditional excuse for Spaniards. And most other Europeans, with the appropriate monarch substituted.



dcnovice -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:31:30 PM)

The Tomb of the Unknown Warrior in Westminster Abbey offers the following reasons:

FOR GOD
FOR KING AND COUNTRY
FOR LOVED ONES HOME AND EMPIRE
FOR THE SACRED CAUSE OF JUSTICE AND
THE FREEDOM OF THE WORLD



YN -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:34:21 PM)

If any god wanted to make war, I doubt he/she/it would need our feeble help.



UllrsIshtar -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:41:50 PM)

Just posting cause I'm also hidden, and this is turning into fun.



dcnovice -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:46:51 PM)

quote:

If any god wanted to make war, I doubt he/she/it would need our feeble help.

Quite true.

But the tomb, deliberately set amid UK luminaries, struck me as an example of the reasons/rationales that people and societies craft for going to war.

The US version in that same conflict was, "The world must be made safe for democracy."



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 7:55:35 PM)

Glory, beliefs, money, forced into it, etc. Your question seems rather broad so you will get broad answers.

I used to be hidden, maybe I still am.




quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I don't think as a US citizen I have much perspective on this. We only do wars of aggression. So for us we fight because our president told us to. I have to assume the picture looks pretty different from the other end of the gun barrel.
As I told, please let aside the US "warriors". Please. You have all the other threads to discuss US politics.
Do you really think that you have *nothing* to say about the wide world and the whole history of mankind, related to this subject?
I mean, I have never been a feudal foot soldier but I think that I can say one word or two about their motivations. And I have. One word. Or two.




Powergamz1 -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 9:06:11 PM)

Still waiting for the specific definition of 'warriors'. First thing that comes to mind is the sound of beer bottles clinking...








SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 9:46:07 PM)

Thank you for all the answers :)

However I would prefer it, if people concentrate on why warriors ACTUALLY fight. Not the official excuses anywhere.



thishereboi -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 10:52:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Thank you for all the answers :)

However I would prefer it, if people concentrate on why warriors ACTUALLY fight. Not the official excuses anywhere.



In that case maybe you should ask a warrior. Having never met one, I can only guess.



SimplyMichael -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 11:10:02 PM)

Tired of America stealing their resources, overthrowing their governments, supporting dictators, and in general being douchebags?



epiphiny43 -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/9/2013 11:42:11 PM)

None of the political hacks here actually know any warriors or . . .say, History? Armies have little to no political motivation for fighting. It's survival and Esprit de Corps. The bond formed among men in deadly situations. Recruitment is another matter. From pure patriotism and political altruism to being on the wrong end of a gun(The child warriors everywhere in the Third World lately), it 'varies'. But men who have been in combat and formed maybe the most intense of human relations from facing death together and depending on each other to live through the engagement and campaign, Will take a bullet for a comrade, even one they don't actually like.
The men who actually build armies, the non-coms and field officers well understand this. From Napolean's Columns who vied for first rank knowing few in the front survived but the following men would prevail and the unit be victorious to today. Seen in the US Army practices of 'team building' so they are most of the way there when combat forges the real bonds. The smaller special units from the Marines and Rangers to Special Forces and Seals emphasize this unit cohesiveness and bonding even more. It's not the flag or the nation, it's the guy in the next foxhole who depends on you for his life and who is your only hope to survive as well.



truckinslave -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 7:17:33 AM)

I consider myself a warrior (ex-paratrooper, ex-cop, current (occasional) firearms instructor- think "training cadre").
Certainly, as others have said, some are temporarily coerced into the profession of arms or such by forces ranging from the judicial to the economic. Others may be drawn to it along a road of vainglorious dreams until they cross the intersections of fear, pain, deprivation, and loss. For soldiers in combat, for those caught in the heat of the moment, the fight is about personal survival and the fear of losing the respect of one's peers. Epiphiny43 said much of what I consider true in that regard. The comments from the Tomb of the Unknown Warrior are also well chosen, although I would opine that for much of human history we fought not for anything so grand as "the freedom of the world". Perhaps the freedom of our tribe, or village.
And therein lies the reason, plainly stated, that people choose careers as soldiers, and policemen, and firefighters, and EMTs (and, in a fashion very closely psychologically linked, teachers and nurses and doctors, and clergy): we care enough for others sufficiently to devote a part of our lives- and if necessary to give our lives- to their care and safety.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 8:24:10 AM)

[sm=thanks.gif] , many interesting answers.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 8:27:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
'For the glory of God and the King of Spain" was the traditional excuse for Spaniards.
Well, actually not even that ("Dios, la Patria y el Rey" is "God, the Fatherland and the King", and it is pretty modern), but I was asking for reasons, not excuses.



Powergamz1 -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 10:15:22 AM)

I find the current investment in the term 'warrior' interesting. I had always seen it in the more tribal context of a lone fighter with skills superior to most of the others... an Achilles, or a Beowulf.

Professional military used to be about strategy and tactics, and leading groups of men through combat to achieve objectives that would hasten the surrender of the enemy. Hopefully this would allow a return to peace.

The new 'warrior' military seems to be more about turning packs of Rambos loose on an endless series of countrysides for 'missions' like COINTELPRO which abandon hundreds of years worth of military lessons learned in favor of endless 'firefights'.
Instead of starting at Normandy and reaching Berlin, the DoD/State Dept. gurus have our personnel roaming around the countryside like a pack of characters in a video game. The objective as mentioned elsewhere, is simply to keep blazing away to protect yourself and the guy next to you.
I've heard from too many recently returned vets that all the FM stuff about command and control, and support, and laying down different types of fire, is simply abandoned.
One told me last fall that the rules of engagement for his outfit included calling in for permission to deploy mortars... in the freaking mountains, they had to wait to use the one weapon capable of reaching the enemy hiding over a hill. And they were invariably at the bottom of a hill when they engaged. But hey, 'warriors' will prevail no matter what the cost, right?

Look at how many of the recent heroic actions in Afghanistan (and the individual heroism does nothing to gloss over the operational problems), were abandoned *immediately after the firefight was over*. Why? According to the CiC, they were 'indefensible'. Then WTF were we doing sticking out troops in there in the first place?? Are we trying to out-martyr the enemy?

Heartbreak Ridge is one, thing, Wanat was something else.

And of course, the notion that our police should be warriors at war with the rest of America, with similar goals of out 'first-person-shooting' the enemy has been commented on at length under the heading of 'the militarization of policing'.




freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 10:40:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: YN
'For the glory of God and the King of Spain" was the traditional excuse for Spaniards.
Well, actually not even that ("Dios, la Patria y el Rey" is "God, the Fatherland and the King", and it is pretty modern), but I was asking for reasons, not excuses.

As usual, SMM is wrong.... again.

And, because he has no real understanding of English, every single "reason" for fighting can also be dismissed as an 'excuse' too.


Source: http://www.westminster-abbey.org/our-history/people/unknown-warrior
At the west end of the Nave of Westminster Abbey is the grave of the Unknown Warrior, whose body was brought from France to be buried here on 11 November 1920. The grave, which contains soil from France, is covered by a slab of black Belgian marble from a quarry near Namur. On it is the following inscription, composed by Herbert Ryle, Dean of Westminster:

BENEATH THIS STONE RESTS THE BODY
OF A BRITISH WARRIOR
UNKNOWN BY NAME OR RANK
BROUGHT FROM FRANCE TO LIE AMONG
THE MOST ILLUSTRIOUS OF THE LAND
AND BURIED HERE ON ARMISTICE DAY
11 NOV: 1920, IN THE PRESENCE OF
HIS MAJESTY KING GEORGE V
HIS MINISTERS OF STATE
THE CHIEFS OF HIS FORCES
AND A VAST CONCOURSE OF THE NATION
THUS ARE COMMEMORATED THE MANY
MULTITUDES WHO DURING THE GREAT
WAR OF 1914-1918 GAVE THE MOST THAT
MAN CAN GIVE LIFE ITSELF
FOR GOD
FOR KING AND COUNTRY
FOR LOVED ONES HOME AND EMPIRE
FOR THE SACRED CAUSE OF JUSTICE AND
THE FREEDOM OF THE WORLD
THEY BURIED HIM AMONG THE KINGS BECAUSE HE
HAD DONE GOOD TOWARD GOD AND TOWARD
HIS HOUSE

Around the main inscription are four texts:

(top) THE LORD KNOWETH THEM THAT ARE HIS,

(sides) GREATER LOVE HATH NO MAN THAN THIS and UNKNOWN AND YET WELL KNOWN, DYING AND BEHOLD WE LIVE,

(base) IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE.



thishereboi -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/10/2013 9:11:32 PM)

Interesting site, thanks for sharing



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 3:27:50 AM)

Well, thank you all for your participation!

What I got from this was:
- Sometimes the reason is another country doing bad things to them, that connect with my "rage" and "patriotism", and in a lesser amount "glory". Thanks, SimplyMichael.
- Comradery seems extremely important once they are hired, it is both remarked by epiphiny and trukinslave in the form of protecting the comrades, and caring about what they think. I should have remarked as a reason by its own somehow.

And I realised also that the question should be definitely divided in two: why they start to fight, and why they continue fighting. Apparently the reasons shift notably in the opinion of many participants here.

Ok then, I unsubscribe, thanks again!



SilverMark -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 3:44:32 AM)

Fanaticism...If your question is to be taken seriously, which seems remote from the comments posted, most "warriors", fighting on foreign soil,(foreign, being in countries not their own,) today are fighting to defeat us infidels.




Aswad -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 12:46:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

It will soon be at a point where he is only able to speak with himself.


I was under the impression that this was already the case.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



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