RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (Full Version)

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jlf1961 -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 3:09:44 PM)

Well there are a lot of reasons why warriors fight.

For the Greeks, it was part of their class system, unless you talk about Sparta, then everyone was basically a warrior.

In the Roman Empire, just because you were born in a Roman province, did not make you a Roman by birth. Rome is credited with having the first professional army, and Roman soldiers fought to gain citizenship. However, there is the misconception that the entire roman army was roman. Most of the roman troops were mercenaries, from the outlands, who fought for one thing, money.

Actually, money was the driving force for most warriors over the centuries. Kings had to pay nobles to supply men for wars in the middle ages. Knights were paid by Kings for direct service to the king, or by nobles who hired them to fight for them in the name of the king.

The majority of the conquistadors who came to the new world were not paid soldiers in service to the king, but mercenaries looking to get rich.

Around the middle of the European colonial expansion period, did Empires and Nations started keeping a standing army, and men joined and fought because it was a way out of the miserable existence they had.



YN -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 3:56:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


The majority of the conquistadors who came to the new world were not paid soldiers in service to the king, but mercenaries looking to get rich.



You have that mainly right. Most conquistadores, including the English ones, were the second, third etc. sons of the nobility and were given or purchased "land grants" from the European monarchs and endorsed by the Vatican to create their own "estates" and titles here. Canada for instance still has some of this American hereditary nobility left, those of the American republics are of course defunct.

The pretext being God wished the faith spread among the Indians.

But those they retained on these expeditions were as you noted, mainly mercenaries, and were from all Europe. The cost of an expedition was great, (over 80,000 gold pieces in the case of one of my ancestors, one must have ships, soldiers, cavaliers, doctors, priests, armorers, blacksmiths, etc., along with the necessary supplies) but then the profits were even greater, assuming one survived the diseases and warfare, and the land grants were often huge, the size of a country, or at least a province of one.

And the survivors were often given subordinate positions, titles, and districts as vassals of their patrones.



Aswad -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 8:52:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

For the Greeks, it was part of their class system, unless you talk about Sparta, then everyone was basically a warrior.


Actually, Sparta had a class system, too. You were either a Spartan or a Heliot, basically. Spartans were warriors. Heliots were slaves. So, really, not so different from the rest of Greece, except for the fact that they bred an exceptional class of exceedingly collectivist warriors and a stricter enforcement of the class system in practice.

quote:

Actually, money was the driving force for most warriors over the centuries.


You've turned it on its head. Freedom, in the form of power, was the driving force. As it remains today.

In the US, a substantial fraction of the soldiers enlist because it provides them with opportunities they don't have, and this is one of the main weaknesses of the US armed forces, particularly as regards the ability to effect good control over their soldiers' conduct on the battlefield. Historically, this was the same for most crusaders and the like: people with few or no options would enlist in an army in return for the promise of power (e.g. money, titles, lands) with which to better their lives and the lives of those around them.

Power is the coin of liberty. Money is one minting press.

quote:

Around the middle of the European colonial expansion period, did Empires and Nations started keeping a standing army, and men joined and fought because it was a way out of the miserable existence they had.


The only real difference here is the continuity.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 9:04:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
most "warriors", fighting on foreign soil,(foreign, being in countries not their own,)

Sorry, my English here...

Are you saying that most warriors ARE fighting on foreign soil, or that your analysis only applies to warriors fighting on foreign soil?

Thank you.



SilverMark -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 9:17:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
most "warriors", fighting on foreign soil,(foreign, being in countries not their own,)

Sorry, my English here...

Are you saying that most warriors ARE fighting on foreign soil, or that your analysis only applies to warriors fighting on foreign soil?

Thank you.

That those non-Americans fighting at present are fighting for religious reasons. Foreign nationals fighting the U.S. in Afghanistan for example.



SpanishMatMaster -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 9:44:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark
That those non-Americans fighting at present are fighting for religious reasons. Foreign nationals fighting the U.S. in Afghanistan for example.

Ehm... you dou realise that my question includes soldiers of every other country in the world, yes? "also irregular troops" I wrote, so regular troops are also included, and the examples I wrote (Spanish Tercios and Roman legionnaires) were soldiers.



BamaD -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 10:15:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar

Just posting cause I'm also hidden, and this is turning into fun.

I realize that I may be exposing a point of ignorance on my part but how can I tell if I am hidden, and if he hasn't hidden me what did I do wrong?



Aswad -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 11:00:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BamaD

I realize that I may be exposing a point of ignorance on my part but how can I tell if I am hidden, and if he hasn't hidden me what did I do wrong?


Going by posting history, objection is what leads to being put on hide, particularly if you're right to object.

One wonders how such a policy would translate into the world of safewords.

IWYW,
— Aswad.



Just0Us0Two -> RE: Why do (non-US) warriors fight? (6/15/2013 11:42:35 PM)

I don't think there's any way to tell. I decided to just skip the wait and do the hiding myself. The insipid arguments were just too much for my taste.



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