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Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, when on... - 6/10/2013 10:26:17 AM   
gyrle


Posts: 3
Joined: 4/19/2013
Status: offline 		Some background.

I have been explaining the dynamic to a vanilla friend, a man, who has met a woman who is a sub. He is vanilla, but she has disclosed to him her feelings, needs, and talked about the lifestyle. He is interested but cautious, with many many questions. Leaving aside whether one can 'introduce' a vanilla person to this and have it be successful. I have run up against a road block of explaining what happens, when the Dom (Master, Top even) messes up in some way.

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that. And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'. The vanilla guy gets all of that, but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?

I have told him that in many relationships there are opportunities built in, for the sub to speak freely and explain how s/he is feeling and that if nothing changes, that ultimately the sub can walk away. Those options are also available to the Dom, 1) talking 2) walking, however the Dom has a third option (so to speak) the punishment, the mechanism by which a physical act allows the slate to be wiped clean...

does that exist when the Dom is at fault?? is their that 'third' option for the sub

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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 10:37:21 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that.
Clearly, we don't "all understand that" because many of us don't have punishment dynamic.


quote:

And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'.
No, it doesn't. If he punished me rather than addressing it like and adult, I would withdraw consent and leave the relationship.

quote:

The vanilla guy gets all of that
He'd probably be better off getting his viewpoints from more people than just you.

quote:

but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?
Again, you're assuming that everyone has a punishment dynamic. When he screws up, we talk about it and work it out. If he doesn't do anything about it, I have the option of withdrawing consent and/or leaving.

I'm trying to figure out why you think punishment is the cure for relationship issues. It isn't. Punishment without discussing the cause or resolution does nothing but breed resentment and anger.

I'm also going to add that you're lumping D/s in with BDSM, and while they frequently encompass each other, they are not the same thing. You can engage in D/s and never engage in BDSM.



< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 6/10/2013 10:39:25 AM >

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(in reply to gyrle)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:03:25 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		You know communication is the best method to solve everything in relationships, vanilla or D/s.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:11:44 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Why is it assumed that two adults require a punishment system in their relationship? Some do, some dont. Its been my experience that if a dom feels a need to punish me, he is already losing control.

quote:

Those options are also available to the Dom, 1) talking 2) walking, however the Dom has a third option (so to speak) the punishment, the mechanism by which a physical act allows the slate to be wiped clean...


Lets not confuse all relationships with the SAMs and brats of the world. There is a big difference between funishment and punishment.

I dont do either.

Now, to directly answer your question. If the dom screws up, he risks losing his submissives respect ( depending on how bad the screw up truly is), he risks losing the submissive himself, he risks losing his honor. Those are my opinions. Im sure some will come along and say that they wont care, its their relationship and it works for them. For me, it wouldnt work.

You will possibly get a different response from many other posters. My suggestion for your friend would be for HIM to discuss with HER the feelings SHE may have if HE screws up.

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to gyrle)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:16:02 AM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that.
Clearly, we don't "all understand that" because many of us don't have punishment dynamic.


quote:

And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'.
No, it doesn't. If he punished me rather than addressing it like and adult, I would withdraw consent and leave the relationship.

quote:

The vanilla guy gets all of that
He'd probably be better off getting his viewpoints from more people than just you.

quote:

but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?
Again, you're assuming that everyone has a punishment dynamic. When he screws up, we talk about it and work it out. If he doesn't do anything about it, I have the option of withdrawing consent and/or leaving.

I'm trying to figure out why you think punishment is the cure for relationship issues. It isn't. Punishment without discussing the cause or resolution does nothing but breed resentment and anger.

I'm also going to add that you're lumping D/s in with BDSM, and while they frequently encompass each other, they are not the same thing. You can engage in D/s and never engage in BDSM.




^^^^^This^^^^^^^

You said exactly what I thought when I was reading this. After reading the OPs profile which reads a bit like a lecture on "how BDSM works" I think she should print out the book list and give it to the guy, along with a list of local people who he can talk to who are a bit more experienced than the OP.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:17:32 AM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

Some background.

I have been explaining the dynamic to a vanilla friend, a man, who has met a woman who is a sub. He is vanilla, but she has disclosed to him her feelings, needs, and talked about the lifestyle. He is interested but cautious, with many many questions. Leaving aside whether one can 'introduce' a vanilla person to this and have it be successful. I have run up against a road block of explaining what happens, when the Dom (Master, Top even) messes up in some way.

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that. And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'. The vanilla guy gets all of that, but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?

I have told him that in many relationships there are opportunities built in, for the sub to speak freely and explain how s/he is feeling and that if nothing changes, that ultimately the sub can walk away. Those options are also available to the Dom, 1) talking 2) walking, however the Dom has a third option (so to speak) the punishment, the mechanism by which a physical act allows the slate to be wiped clean...

does that exist when the Dom is at fault?? is their that 'third' option for the sub




First: I have run up against a road block of explaining what happens, when the Dom (Master, Top even) messes up in some way.

Part of being a responsible human being is the ability to admit when one has messed up, take responsibility for it and apologise and do his/her best that they do not commit the same type of error.
It is no different whether someone is vanilla, or engaged in some type of power exchange relationship, no matter what side of the kneel one is on.
Being punished is not a substitute for the above.

And yes, as mentioned, punishment is not always a part of a D/s (or BDSM) dynamic.

Relationships tend to fail when needs don't match - when either the Dominant partner or the submissive half wants a punishment dynamic and the other does not.

Sometimes, a dominant partner simply wishes to have a person under their control to be obedient.

Often when people engage in impact play, it is because both members of the relationship choose to for reasons that have nothing to do with punishment.

Perhaps you could get your friend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/When-Someone-You-Love-Kinky/dp/1890159239


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(in reply to gyrle)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:32:10 AM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

After reading the OPs profile which reads a bit like a lecture on "how BDSM works"


What actually makes that more entertaining is at the bottom of the journal, there's a line that essentially says, "Unless you've been elected the leader of BDSM, don't tell me how things should be".


_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 11:57:25 AM   
MasterCaneman


Posts: 3842
Joined: 3/21/2013
Status: offline 		In my past in-scene relationships, short as they were, when I screwed up, it was exactly as if we were a vanilla couple. I've always been of the mind never to let real-life issues go into the bedroom, and not to use my "authoritah" to really punish someone. Oh, it would come up, but always tongue-in-cheek, and intended solely for "funishment", never in real anger.

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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 12:49:56 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I think she should print out the book list and give it to the guy, along with a list of local people who he can talk to who are a bit more experienced than the OP.


More self-help books?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 1:41:43 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		my late dom would say that he was never wrong - that it was my fault (very tongue in cheek). As such, if something happened, I was the one who was wrong - regardless of the situation.

actually, in the long run, he had his shit together and very seldom screwed up. If he did, I didn't expect an apology, I helped him fix whatever it was. The point is, is that in a relationship, I don't think that pointing fingers is very conducive to a long relationship. When I screwed up , he helped me fix whatever I messed up on, and we would go on. Of course, part of him helping me was to do a little physical punishment - like standing facing the wall without moving . He was great that way - and only had to do it once or twice over five years.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 2:32:02 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		We don't find punishment a good thing in any way. It creates resentment, distrust and distance between us.

Look, if he knows something is highly offensive and he doesn't care, then no punishment is going to change how he feels.
If he misunderstood, no punishment will magically improve communication.
If it was an accident, then punishment still won't solve anything.

About the only thing punishment is effective for is releasing feelings of guilt once you've solved the problem.

If someone doesn't care about me, they don't deserve to be in a relationship with me. I deserve better than that.


Regardless, although this is always a fruitful topic, what concerns me is why the op is teaching him how to have a power dynamic with someone else. The only person who knows if this other woman is interested in a punishment dynamic is her. She's the only one who can explain what is a deal breaker for her and what isn't.

OP, why haven't you told him that what he really needs to do is sit down with her and ask her what makes her tick? Why are you trying to insert yourself between them? I find this especially odd in someone who claims to understand that clear communication between sub and dom is essential yet when faced with a situation that requires that, doesn't impress upon him the need to talk to her, not you.
If he makes a mistake, the only things required are a sincere apology and for him to figure out what went wrong and how to solve the problem for the future so it doesn't happen again. Oddly enough, this is what's required when the sub fucks up also.

Except here problem solving is a joint process. He might see the problem more objectively and see a solution I don't or I might.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 6/10/2013 2:40:11 PM >

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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 2:49:36 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

The vanilla guy gets all of that
He'd probably be better off getting his viewpoints from more people than just you.

Always a truism. I used to think that punishment was childish. I don't anymore. But I still find it both aesthetically unappealing to me and entirely counter to any sort of boundary setting that I would contemplate. It basically allows for another option... obey or I will punish you. I like to keep it at the options I actually like, obey or we stop the dynamic.

But honestly, there are way too many posters on these boards who DO have a punishment dynamic for me to malign it part & parcel. If it works for them, neat.
That is why more viewpoints are a good thing.

Insofar as what happens when I screw up it generally goes like this. Whoever notices it brings it to the attention of me and us. I feel a great deal of remorse then I fix whatever my screw up broke. Then we continue along our merry way. No, she has no recourse akin to punishing me... not even moping about and whatnot. She could, of course, but eventually I'd yank her leash on that one not to mention how counterproductive a whole ton of moping is to a happy marriage.

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/10/2013 2:52:09 PM >

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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 3:24:54 PM   
lizi


Posts: 4673
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		It's nice that you're trying to help the guy out, I'd say his question could be answered by saying he could give the person he wronged a heartfelt, sincere, apology and work it out with her that way. She could do the same if the ball was ever in her court.

In my own experience, I find punishment not to be something that would work well for me, although I can see in certain, rare, cases where it might be just the ticket. Overall though, i'd have to say I'm not a someone who will actively look for a man who wishes a punishment dynamic in place. Funishment is another story though...

(in reply to gyrle)
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RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 3:51:36 PM   
gyrle


Posts: 3
Joined: 4/19/2013
Status: offline
DISCLAIMER +++++ what follows is the view from my side of the fence, I claim no authority in anyone else's life, kink, dynamic etc. I also have never and will never claim to have any or all the answers, and I reserve the right to be upset and to wonder at the utility of this forum (butt hurt if if makes you feel a tad more superior) if you are going to be overly aggressive and make assumptions about me in response to a polite question +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that.
Clearly, we don't "all understand that" because many of us don't have punishment dynamic.




Yes indeed, you are quite right, I should added the disclaimer that all I was doing was expressing the view from my side of the fence. I should have made it more clear in my original post here. But in reference to a second post you made a little lower down on this thread, I have never claimed to have all the answers, (my profile posting was objecting to those who do, if I object to that behaviour in others that does not mean that I indulge in it myself)

My phrasing in my initial message was clearly clumsy, mea culpa.. oh for a touch more wisdom and perfect phraseology.

and again a thousand apologies for making it appear that I assume that the punishment dynamic is in all forms of BDSM, I know that it is not and that was not my intention, but thanks to you and to others, for the reminder that it is not.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in a general response to some of the rest of the thread.

I am not a newbie on here ( I changed my user name recently, but have been on CM for quite few years now) I tend to only read the forum posts, rather than contribute, because unless I have something to add, that I believe is both useful and compassionate, I don't feel qualified to respond......

I know enough about this forum to know that the responses are somewhat robust (to put it mildly) on this forum, which was why I hesitated to even post my question ...to be entirely honest some of you scare me, even from a continent away, because there is a lot of jumping down peoples throats on here, a lot of people for whom niceness is redundant. I know that if you express a robust opinion, you feel justified in it and you are entitled to that self-justification..but in general I stay out of it because this kind of conflict upsets me...however this time I needed some opinions for a friend.

Just so you know I did try and search a number of times for an answer ..And while I would never say never, it is unlikely that I will approach anyone on this forum for an opinion again.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have seen a bit of this this recently people who don't hedge their posts around with due amount of humility and disclaimers that *i am not talking for everyone, and I am only speaking for myself*...get jumped on like a ton of bricks??....I get that some of you guys get pissed off answering questions that seem repetitive, I also get that many many people on here act like they know it all.

I genuinely don't and have never felt that I have any universal answers...so on behalf of those who tentatively pose questions, if you can, try and cut them a little slack, find out where they are coming from before you flay them, because it is not kind, it is not compassionate and it is not humane. What happened to giving someone the benefit of the doubt?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

in answer to someone else who asked why the OP is 'putting themselves between this guy and his woman' I was simply asked for my opinion, nothing more, and given that I don't know it all..and can only know what has worked and not worked for me in the past, I thought that this board might be a suitable place to ask for what works in other peoples lives and dynamics....so I could point them in the direction of this post and allow them to read for themselves what this community of experts has to say....


if you were me would you point a new Dom to this post?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am not interested in engaging in a slanging match with anyone. I get that those who saw fit to excoriate me, have their reasons. And while I disagree with your methods and the assumptions you made about me, I appreciate your opinions and that you took the time to share them with me.

to those of you who genuinely did intelligently engage with the question and gave me the benefit of the doubt in my clumsy phrasing, Thank you for taking the time to give me useful information and the view from your world. You my friends, are the ones that stop this place disintegrating into a aggressive brouhaha. I salute your compassion and wisdom.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 4:17:14 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle

Some background.

I have been explaining the dynamic to a vanilla friend, a man, who has met a woman who is a sub. He is vanilla, but she has disclosed to him her feelings, needs, and talked about the lifestyle. He is interested but cautious, with many many questions. Leaving aside whether one can 'introduce' a vanilla person to this and have it be successful. I have run up against a road block of explaining what happens, when the Dom (Master, Top even) messes up in some way.

If there are clear rules and a sub transgresses them, then s/he gets punished, we all understand that. And we all know that it is a good thing because it enforces boundaries, makes the sub feel safe, provides a mechanism for the sub to expiate her 'sins'. The vanilla guy gets all of that, but his question, very reasonably, is what happens when the Dom fucks up. What equivalent recourse does the sub have?

I have told him that in many relationships there are opportunities built in, for the sub to speak freely and explain how s/he is feeling and that if nothing changes, that ultimately the sub can walk away. Those options are also available to the Dom, 1) talking 2) walking, however the Dom has a third option (so to speak) the punishment, the mechanism by which a physical act allows the slate to be wiped clean...

does that exist when the Dom is at fault?? is their that 'third' option for the sub

One small thing first. I'm not one for educating the ignorant to be that which they're not by a naturally evolving process. Of personal, internal discovery. And the Net enables that all too readily, esp as many a vanilla male sees calling themself a "dom" is how you get your dick sucked on demand.

Your vanilla friend wants to learn how to keep getting laid by this one particular woman - to deceive her. Him, I don't help, but fortunately my answer to your greater question won't help if he's just learning to role-play.

When I fuck up with my sub, I get hell from ol' mate in the mirror. Long before discovering D/s, I've prided myself in being just, fair and principled etc, of leading by deed as much as word. And when it goes wrong, the mirror is one tough place to look. That cold and disapproving look of "you know what you have to do" to make things right. While it doesn't happen often, I've now been around enough to know what I have to do *before* risking the mirror - thus avoiding the dreaded inevitable. There's no "use by date" - if I don't apologise and generally make it up to her etc, the mirror will just keep waiting for me.

My girl owns her mistakes - AS DO I. And since I lead by deed, we're *both* held responsible for our actions.

And what I said straight up. I don't introduce and educate vanillas to the lifestyle - they hafta find their way in here, FIRST.

Welcome to CM and the forums.

Focus.

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(in reply to gyrle)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 6:07:18 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline 		First, does he accept that he's screwed up?

If he does, then perhaps an explanation and apology is in order. That said, if the two of them are in agreement with what he should do, it is not my place to tell them what to do.

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The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

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(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 6:32:07 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		Aw hell! I missed that. It's funny.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 6:33:37 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I think she should print out the book list and give it to the guy, along with a list of local people who he can talk to who are a bit more experienced than the OP.


More self-help books?


I haven't actually really looked at RS's book list, although I don't believe they are "self help" style books, but thanks for the attempted dig, even if it did fall short.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 6:55:51 PM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		~FRing it~

I am one of those types who doesn't believe for one minute that I'm so perfect that I can't fuck up. I try my level best not to, but I'm a human being above all else. I'm by no means perfect. So when I screw up, I admit it, and do what I can to make amends. The submissive of course is free to do as they see fit...hear me out and let me try to make it right...or walk if they feel it crossed an uncrossable line was crossed.

I can only do what I can to make it right. It's up to them to decide if its something they can get over. Lucky for me, I spend a lot of time learning where the lines are because even though I'll admit it when I mess up, I strive to not mess up whenever possible.

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Equivalent for a Dom of punishment for the sub, whe... - 6/10/2013 7:06:31 PM   
OsideGirl


Posts: 14441
Joined: 7/1/2005
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gyrle
My phrasing in my initial message was clearly clumsy, mea culpa.. oh for a touch more wisdom and perfect phraseology.



The thing is, that when it comes to making a post on a forum, we only have the words that you have typed on the screen to provide information. You worded it as very much a "This is the way it is" post and you're unhappy when people took you at what you wrote.

And as much as you're unhappy about the responses, let's look at the other side of the coin....I wouldn't point a new Dom to your post either because it would give a very one dimensional, not necessarily correct view of WIITWD.

_____________________________

Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to gyrle)
Profile   Post #: 20
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