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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:19:09 AM   
WinsomeDefiance


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Well I guess when I said similar things I may have a tinfoil hat on but it's shared by the ACLU and Rand Paul. I'm liking the look of tinfoil.

Good news from The Dailey Show: You are not paranoid!!! Has your life changed much?

I am rather grateful for fast data. Surfing all corners of the world is great fun. Better than reading the damn newspaper the day after an event or waiting for the mailman to come. How great is online banking and vacation planning! Shopping Amazon and meeting new people from all over the English speaking world. I am so glad I live in the age of Big Data. How constricted we were in our little predigital villages and cities. Email? I don't read all my email. If the govt finds anything interesting that I missed I hope they let me know. Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.


HEY! Convenience calls from the government letting you know you missed an email about an overdue bill or a change in scheduling. Awesome. Crap, that won't work. They'd be waiting on busy signals from all the unsolicited sales calls and bill collectors asking for people you've never heard of.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:21:48 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I wonder why didn`t we have these conversations in '01'-'02'?


And I wonder why we are having them now?


Nothing has really changed, except the President.


I disagree. Things have changed, other than the President. Society no longer looks to government with pollyanna eyes. There is a lot of mistrust now... and I dont mean that in a partisan way. Both parties have done this.

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Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 22
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:26:56 AM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/12/nsa-surveillance-program-failed-to-invade-tamerlan-tsarnaev-s-privacy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:28:18 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Which really begs the question..... why assume they had any information on the Strange family?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:28:37 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I wonder why didn`t we have these conversations in '01'-'02'?


And I wonder why we are having them now?


Nothing has really changed, except the President.


I disagree. Things have changed, other than the President. Society no longer looks to government with pollyanna eyes. There is a lot of mistrust now... and I dont mean that in a partisan way. Both parties have done this.

omg, you should read what they said about Abe Lincoln!!!

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:29:43 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		lol... im quite sure.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:31:01 AM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/12/nsa-surveillance-program-failed-to-invade-tamerlan-tsarnaev-s-privacy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

I was referring to the internet. Not to the NSA program.

So, if they are so inefficient what's your worry? Too much data? As they said on the Daily Show: shut off the spigots; we cant handle it all . . . paraphrasing.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:10:25 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I wonder why didn`t we have these conversations in '01'-'02'?


And I wonder why we are having them now?


Nothing has really changed, except the President.


I disagree. Things have changed, other than the President. Society no longer looks to government with pollyanna eyes. There is a lot of mistrust now... and I dont mean that in a partisan way. Both parties have done this.

omg, you should read what they said about Abe Lincoln!!!


yeh isnt he the one who abrogated habeous corpus during his term?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:12:21 AM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/12/nsa-surveillance-program-failed-to-invade-tamerlan-tsarnaev-s-privacy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

I was referring to the internet. Not to the NSA program.

So, if they are so inefficient what's your worry? Too much data? As they said on the Daily Show: shut off the spigots; we cant handle it all . . . paraphrasing.



inefficient or selective?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:31:27 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The parents have no idea if they are being monitored by the NSA. They are simply paranoid. Believing the government is doing something to you with no evidence is not a basis for a tort. You will note that the lawsuit in question has not been filed by the ACLU but by Larry Klayman, who is a birther and a columnist for WorldNetDaily, has a long history of filing frivolous lawsuits. I'm betting this gets tossed out in short order.

so.. Larry Klayman is a nutbar then??? yet he is a former US Dept of Justice prosecutor.. hmmm.. let me get this straight.. so when he was prosecuting he wasnt a nutbar but when he defends America's rights and freedoms he is a nutbar? ok, got it..

No, Klayman has always been a nutbar. Being a federal prosewcutor under Reagan does not exactly help the case that the guy isn't a nut.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:36:06 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML
Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/12/nsa-surveillance-program-failed-to-invade-tamerlan-tsarnaev-s-privacy.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+thedailybeast%2Farticles+%28The+Daily+Beast+-+Latest+Articles%29

The absurdity of this article is shocking. The NSA is gathering a lot of data but there isn't even a hint that they are monitoring which ip addresses people are browsing which is the only way they could have detected the behavior discussed.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:37:38 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		so can we forgive him for seeing and trying to compensate for the errors of his ways?

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:47:19 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The absurdity of this article is shocking. The NSA is gathering a lot of data but there isn't even a hint that they are monitoring which ip addresses people are browsing which is the only way they could have detected the behavior discussed.

You apparently haven't been tracking the program. There is more than a hint. There is the absolute certainty. What exactly do you think it means when they have hooks into all those major corporations? What do you think they are gathering, sorting, and collating? I think they could tell you what time your alarm went off this morning and what you had for breakfast (or damned close... give them a few more years and they'll be there).


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:51:00 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The absurdity of this article is shocking. The NSA is gathering a lot of data but there isn't even a hint that they are monitoring which ip addresses people are browsing which is the only way they could have detected the behavior discussed.

You apparently haven't been tracking the program. There is more than a hint. There is the absolute certainty. What exactly do you think it means when they have hooks into all those major corporations? What do you think they are gathering, sorting, and collating? I think they could tell you what time your alarm went off this morning and what you had for breakfast (or damned close... give them a few more years and they'll be there).


It means they track usage on those corps websites. The only way they could track individual browsing is if they had software installed at the ISP's. Which there isn't the remotest hint of.

Maybe you should learn how the internet works.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:58:37 AM   
JeffBC


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Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Maybe you should learn how the internet works.

wait... really? You obviously are working on the magic internet where packets get from your computer to the web server through the 8th dimension. My packets, sadly, go through internet backbone providers like... say... the major telecoms... all of whom are breached.

A direct quote from a very, very high end security professional, "We have assumed for years that anything which was not encrypted at the endpoint and then remained encrypted all the way to it's destination was available to the government."

I think i need to get off this shitty internet I'm on and get onto your magic one.

edited to add
Would you be willing to tell us whether you are a professional network engineer, big data architect, or data security professional? Is there some basis of knowledge from which you are speaking?

< Message edited by JeffBC -- 6/12/2013 11:02:19 AM >

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 11:20:35 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Maybe you should learn how the internet works.

wait... really? You obviously are working on the magic internet where packets get from your computer to the web server through the 8th dimension. My packets, sadly, go through internet backbone providers like... say... the major telecoms... all of whom are breached.

A direct quote from a very, very high end security professional, "We have assumed for years that anything which was not encrypted at the endpoint and then remained encrypted all the way to it's destination was available to the government."

I think i need to get off this shitty internet I'm on and get onto your magic one.

edited to add
Would you be willing to tell us whether you are a professional network engineer, big data architect, or data security professional? Is there some basis of knowledge from which you are speaking?


Yes, I have been a network engineer. I have spent my entire adult life as an IT professional.

Sniffing each packet to identify the ip address of origin and the packets destination ip address would slow the entire internet to a crawl, each request and response can consist of many individual packets. It would also break secure connections used in all sorts of ecommerce which are expressly designed to fail when subjected to what is called man in the middle attacks which is what that sort of packet interception is called. Since ecommerce still works the NSA is not sniffing each packet.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 11:28:36 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Yes, I have been a network engineer. I have spent my entire adult life as an IT professional.

Excellent. So we are in agreement that the data is there and is available for collection... the only rub being processing power, right? So then when you look at things like Stellar Wind and look at all that processing power they are putting in that doesn't make you wonder?

Don't get me wrong... to my knowledge Stellar Wind and Argus are not complete. I do not think the "replay my life" machine is complete yet. All I have said is that they are building it as quickly as they are able and we know several of the key components. But when a network architect for a backbone company tells me that they CAN and DO do this stuff I tend to believe them. My guess is that right now they are simply collecting the data into a huge mountain which they will nto be able to dig into very deeply until Stellar Wind is complete (unless that's just the storage facility and they are doing the big data mining somewhere else... but it'd make sense to do it locally for performance reasons).

By the way, are you seriously suggesting that I could not sniff packets undetectably if I had the help of... say... cisco? Hell, I can do it with a $200 netbook in a starbucks.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 11:40:42 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Yes, I have been a network engineer. I have spent my entire adult life as an IT professional.

Excellent. So we are in agreement that the data is there and is available for collection... the only rub being processing power, right? So then when you look at things like Stellar Wind and look at all that processing power they are putting in that doesn't make you wonder?

Don't get me wrong... to my knowledge Stellar Wind and Argus are not complete. I do not think the "replay my life" machine is complete yet. All I have said is that they are building it as quickly as they are able and we know several of the key components. But when a network architect for a backbone company tells me that they CAN and DO do this stuff I tend to believe them. My guess is that right now they are simply collecting the data into a huge mountain which they will nto be able to dig into very deeply until Stellar Wind is complete (unless that's just the storage facility and they are doing the big data mining somewhere else... but it'd make sense to do it locally for performance reasons).

By the way, are you seriously suggesting that I could not sniff packets undetectably if I had the help of... say... cisco? Hell, I can do it with a $200 netbook in a starbucks.

No. the rub is intercepting all those packets in those routers and not slowing the internet down beyond usability and not breaking all ecommerce. You could maybe sniff packets on a local router at a starbucks if you had the right software because that is relatively low traffic and is transmitted over the air so you just would need a wifi receiver. To intercept all packets sent from computers in the US would require putting super computers into the backbone and even then it would still break ecommerce. As long as ecommerce works there is no pervasive monitoring of ip traffic.

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 12:52:11 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		Nice play on words ken.

you dont "intercept" them, you "siphon" them in a manner of speaking.

In other words watch as they go by.

Sort of like sound at a concert, each person listening does nothing to slow the sound down and each person hears and if they have a recorder can record the sounds as they pass by.

busted again!

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 10:41:25 PM   
tj444


Posts: 7574
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

So, if they are so inefficient what's your worry? Too much data? As they said on the Daily Show: shut off the spigots; we cant handle it all . . . paraphrasing.

what's my worry? My worry is being f'n targeted and them going back thru all communications to use against me in whatever ways they can.. just as what they did with the reporter Rosen (& his family).. They can apparently be quite "efficient" when it suits them, like when going after anyone that questions the govt instead of going after those they get intel on about being a true terrorist.. I simply do not buy the party line that this surveillance is for terrorists, its for anyone the govt decides to go after..

_____________________________

As Anderson Cooper said “If he (Trump) took a dump on his desk, you would defend it”

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Profile   Post #: 40
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