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lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 8:37:36 PM   
tj444


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2 lawsuits just filed.. so some Americans have been hurt by the spying on them and are willing to fight the govt..

The lawsuit was filed by activist lawyer Larry Klayman, the founder of Judicial Watch and a former federal prosecutor, and Charles and Mary Ann Strange. Charles Strange is the father of Navy SEAL Michael Strange, who was killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan in 2011.
In the suit, the Stranges claim their phone records have been accessed "particularly since these Plaintiffs have been vocal about their criticism of President Obama as commander-in-chief, his administration, and the U.S. military regarding the circumstances surrounding the shoot down of their son's helicopter in Afghanistan."
The defendants in the suit are President Barack Obama; the Department of Justice and Attorney General Eric Holder; the NSA and its director, Keith Alexander; Verizon and its chief executive, Lowell McAdam; and Roger Vinson, the judge who signed the secret order.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Philly_couple_activist_lawyer_file_lawsuit_over_NSA_collection_of_Verizon_records.html

"The American Civil Liberties Union and the New York Civil Liberties Union today filed a constitutional challenge to a surveillance program under which the National Security Agency vacuums up information about every phone call placed within, from, or to the United States. The lawsuit argues that the program violates the First Amendment rights of free speech and association as well as the right of privacy protected by the Fourth Amendment. The complaint also charges that the dragnet program exceeds the authority that Congress provided through the Patriot Act."
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-files-lawsuit-challenging-constitutionality-nsa-phone-spying-program

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 8:45:24 PM   
DomKen


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The first lawsuit will be tossed out. All government officials have immunity from civil suits related to their official activities.

The ACLU suit might have some legs but they're going to have a hard time making the case that simply gathering data infringes on anyone's speech or association rights. They might have a case in regards to privacy though.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 8:57:18 PM   
Marini


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quote:

The first lawsuit will be tossed out. All government officials have immunity from civil suits related to their official activities.


I'm no expert, but this is my feeling on these "lawsuits" also.
The beat goes on.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 8:57:58 PM   
tj444


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we will see.. That the govt can go thru online communication & phone records if you disagree with them & exercised your right to free speech, etc is not the claimed use of those records.. which was what again? oh yeah, to find "terrorists"..

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 9:04:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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It will be interesting to see how the first one will prove their records have been accessed.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 10:33:57 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It will be interesting to see how the first one will prove their records have been accessed.

I would guess that if the parents found out the govt has info on them, who they associate with, etc that was known only to the parents & that the only way the govt could find that out is if they accessed phone and/or online communications.. then the govt would have to explain how they found that info out, etc..
If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it poops like a duck, then its a f'n duck.. lol

I think Rosen and his parents should also be suing the govt.. imo, to go after a reporters parents is beyond sleazy..

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 10:36:04 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I would guess that if the parents found out the govt has info on them, who they associate with, etc that was known only to the parents & that the only way the govt could find that out is if they accessed phone and/or online communications.. then the govt would have to explain how they found that info out, etc..
If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it poops like a duck, then its a f'n duck.. lol


Believing all that is one thing... proving it quite something else. And I seem to recall a Judge refusing an argument because the government listed it as "national security" when it came to the NSA releasing information to prove something to the court.

So Im thinking that suit may not be very successful.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 10:50:42 PM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Believing all that is one thing... proving it quite something else. And I seem to recall a Judge refusing an argument because the government listed it as "national security" when it came to the NSA releasing information to prove something to the court.

So Im thinking that suit may not be very successful.

well,.. maybe it would be national security if these people were terrorists but they are not, they are a dead soldiers parents.. where would "national security" come into that? the info isnt gonna reveal some source in Iraq or the mid-east.. why are they using this against Americans who have committed no crime other than objecting to the war Obama said he would end?

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 10:53:49 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The first lawsuit will be tossed out. All government officials have immunity from civil suits related to their official activities.




he wrote a pretty good complaint and included a jury demand, fuck yeh!

at a minimum that judge should be toast, of course commander-in-chief means sovereign so not so sure how they intend to pull the ohaha gig off.


STATEMENT OF FACTS
25. The NSA began a classified surveillance program to intercept the telephone communications of persons inside the United States, a program that continues to this date. The U .S. government* on the orders authorization of the President* the Attorney General, the DOJ and
the NSA, has obtained a top secret court order that directs V erizon to turn over the telephone records of over one hundred million Americans to the NSA on an ongoing daily basis.

26. On April 25,2013, D efendant Judge Roger V inson, acting in his official and personal capacities and under the authority of D efendant Obama, his Attorney G eneral and the DOJ, ordered that the Custodian of Records shall produce the production of tangible things from V erizon Business Network Services, Inc. on behalf of MCI Communication Services Inc, individually and collectively, to the NSA and continue production on an ongoing daily basis
thereafter.

27. D efendant V inson ordered access to electronic copies of the following tangble things: all call detail records or "telephony metadata" created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls. Tel ephony metadata includes comprehensive communications routing information, including but not limited to session identifying information (e.g. originating and terminating telephone number, International Mobile Subscriber Identity (I MS I) number, International Mobile station Equipment Identity (IMEI) number, etc.) trunk identifier, telephone calling card numbers, and time and duration of call.

28 Defendant Vinson’s Order requires Verizon to turn over on gin ating and term mating telephone numbers as well as the location, time, and duration of the calls. In essence, the Order gvesthe NSA blanket access to the records of over a hundred million of V enzon custom ers’ dom estic and foreign phone calls made between Apnl 25, 2013, when the Order
was signed, and July 19, 2013, when the Order is supposedto, onitsface, expire.

29. D efendant V inson, in an attempt to keep his illegal acts and those of other D efendants as a secret, further ordered that no person shall disclose to any other person that the FBI or NSA has sought or obtained tangible things under his order.

30. Based on knowledge and belief, this Order issued by Defendant Vinson is the broadest surveillance order to ever have been issued; it requires no level of reasonable suspicion or probable cause and incredibly applies to all V erizon subscribers and users anywhere in the United States and overseas.

31. Defendant V insorfs Order shows for the first time that, under Defendant Obama's administration, the communication records of over one hundred million of U S. citizens are being collected indiscriminately and in bulk - regardless of whether there is reasonable suspicion or any“probable cause” of any wrongdoing

32 . On June 5, 2013, The Guardian published an article entitled, "NSA collecting phone records of millions of V erizon customers daily. Exclusive: Top secret court order requiring V erizon to hand over all call data shows scale of domestic surveillance under Obama."

33. Since June 5,2013, Defendants Obama, Holder, Alexander, McAdan, Vinson, V erizon, the DOJ, and the NSA have been widely condemned among American citizens regarding their failure to uphold the U.S. Constitution and intentionally violating the fundamental ri^its of
Plaintiffs, members of the class, and over one hundred million of other Americans.

34. As just one ex ample, S enator Rand P aul called the surveillance of V erizon phone records "an astounding assault on the constitution,11 and has called for a class action lawsuit such as this one.

35. In fact* the news of Judge V inson’s Order com es as the Obama administration is under fire following revelations that the DOJ has seized two m onths of telephone records of a number of Associated Press’ reporters and editors, claiming that the requests were part of an investigation into the leak of classified information, as well as the telephone records and em ails of reporters and management of F ox N ews. This is thus a pattern of eg:egious
ongoing illegal, criminal activity.

36. Such schemes by the Defendants in concert with the government have subjected untold number of innocent people to the constant surveillance of government agents. As Jameel Jaffeer, the ACLU’s deputy legal director, stated, “ItisbeyondOrwellian, and it provides further evidence of the extent to which basic democratic rights are being surrendered in secret to the demands of unaccountable intelligence agencies.”

37. T o date, D efendants have not issued substantive and meaningful explanations to the Am eric an people describing what has occurred. To the contrary, criminal charges are reportedly being pur sued by Defendants Obama, Holder, the DOJ, and the NSA against the leakers of this plot against American citizens in a further effort suppress, obstruct justice, and to keep Defendants’ illegal actions as secret as possible.


http://media.philly.com/documents/VerizonNSAlawsuit.pdf

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 11:07:50 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

Jameel Jaffeer, the ACLU’s deputy legal director, stated, “It is beyond Orwellian"
Senator Rand Paul called the surveillance of Verizon phone records "an astounding assault on the constitution"

Well I guess when I said similar things I may have a tinfoil hat on but it's shared by the ACLU and Rand Paul. I'm liking the look of tinfoil.

quote:

In fact the news of Judge Vinson’s Order comes as the Obama administration is under fire following revelations that the DOJ has seized two m onths of telephone records of a number of Associated Press’ reporters and editors, claiming that the requests were part of an investigation into the leak of classified information, as well as the telephone records and em ails of reporters and management of F ox N ews. This is thus a pattern of eg:egious
ongoing illegal, criminal activity.

Nawwww, say it ain't so! Obama attacking freedom of the press. Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah... occupy wallstreet when all over the country cops were preventing credentialed journalists from covering protests and/or thorwing said journalists in jail. And of course the Fox News thing is only a coincidence. Don't get me wrong, I detest Fox news but man oh man that is a mighty lot of smoke.

My personal opinion is that this will be heard by the court... this or one like it. They will need to go through the motions to at least momentarily calm the flock. All the while Obama "welcomes debate" while continuing in secret on several other similar projects which have leaked and several others which aren't even secret. I can't believe folks didn't go nuts over Argus.


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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/11/2013 11:18:44 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

well,.. maybe it would be national security if these people were terrorists but they are not, they are a dead soldiers parents.. where would "national security" come into that? the info isnt gonna reveal some source in Iraq or the mid-east.. why are they using this against Americans who have committed no crime other than objecting to the war Obama said he would end?


I think, in this case, they would have to prove the government did all that. And, in order to prove it, they would have to get that proof from the government, so it would have to be court ordered.

But the plaintiffs do not — and because of the State Secrets Doctrine cannot — produce any evidence that any of their own communications have ever been intercepted by the NSA, under the TSP, or without warrants. Instead, they assert a mere belief, which they contend is reasonable and which they label a “well founded belief,”...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_v._National_Security_Agency

This is what I was getting at.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 2:51:35 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Believing all that is one thing... proving it quite something else. And I seem to recall a Judge refusing an argument because the government listed it as "national security" when it came to the NSA releasing information to prove something to the court.

So Im thinking that suit may not be very successful.

well,.. maybe it would be national security if these people were terrorists but they are not, they are a dead soldiers parents.. where would "national security" come into that? the info isnt gonna reveal some source in Iraq or the mid-east.. why are they using this against Americans who have committed no crime other than objecting to the war Obama said he would end?

The parents have no idea if they are being monitored by the NSA. They are simply paranoid. Believing the government is doing something to you with no evidence is not a basis for a tort. You will note that the lawsuit in question has not been filed by the ACLU but by Larry Klayman, who is a birther and a columnist for WorldNetDaily, has a long history of filing frivolous lawsuits. I'm betting this gets tossed out in short order.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 5:24:02 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The parents have no idea if they are being monitored by the NSA. They are simply paranoid. Believing the government is doing something to you with no evidence is not a basis for a tort. You will note that the lawsuit in question has not been filed by the ACLU but by Larry Klayman, who is a birther and a columnist for WorldNetDaily, has a long history of filing frivolous lawsuits. I'm betting this gets tossed out in short order.

so.. Larry Klayman is a nutbar then??? yet he is a former US Dept of Justice prosecutor.. hmmm.. let me get this straight.. so when he was prosecuting he wasnt a nutbar but when he defends America's rights and freedoms he is a nutbar? ok, got it..

The second link is about the ACLU lawsuit..

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 5:46:37 AM   
tj444


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I think, in this case, they would have to prove the government did all that. And, in order to prove it, they would have to get that proof from the government, so it would have to be court ordered.

But the plaintiffs do not — and because of the State Secrets Doctrine cannot — produce any evidence that any of their own communications have ever been intercepted by the NSA, under the TSP, or without warrants. Instead, they assert a mere belief, which they contend is reasonable and which they label a “well founded belief,”...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_v._National_Security_Agency

This is what I was getting at.

Its a class action and the govt has recently been forced to admit it has been doing this... I dont know how far this will go but its more pressure on the govt to stop violating people's rights.. You cant just sit around twiddling your thumbs expecting the govt will voluntarily stop doing this, there has to be enough pressure on them to force them to.. that is what the lawsuit's goal is, hopefully that happens cuz imo the govt is showing Americans that your constitution is a joke otherwise..

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 5:53:29 AM   
SilverMark


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What are the damages? How is it that even if the NSA accessed their phone records did it harm the plaintiffs? If the claim is a right to privacy, then shouldn't it become a civil rights case as opposed to seeking some for of damages? The right to privacy is implied in the constitution but only guaranteed through court judgment, and pertains more to unlawful search and seizure, as opposed to retention of phone records.
If the suit gets any traction, it should be interesting to see it unfold. I would love to see it end the Patriot Act, but I doubt it will lead to that, although courts have struck down parts, by claiming "national security interests" the courts find it difficult to rule against the government.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 7:21:08 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

2 lawsuits just filed.. so some Americans have been hurt by the spying on them and are willing to fight the govt..

The lawsuit was filed by activist lawyer Larry Klayman, the founder of Judicial Watch and a former federal prosecutor, and Charles and Mary Ann Strange. Charles Strange is the father of Navy SEAL Michael Strange, who was killed in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan in 2011.
In the suit, the Stranges claim their phone records have been accessed "particularly since these Plaintiffs have been vocal about their criticism of President Obama as commander-in-chief, his administration, and the U.S. military regarding the circumstances surrounding the shoot down of their son's helicopter in Afghanistan."
The defendants in the suit are President Barack Obama; the Department of Justice and Attorney General Eric Holder; the NSA and its director, Keith Alexander; Verizon and its chief executive, Lowell McAdam; and Roger Vinson, the judge who signed the secret order.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/Philly_couple_activist_lawyer_file_lawsuit_over_NSA_collection_of_Verizon_records.html

"The American Civil Liberties Union and the New York Civil Liberties Union today filed a constitutional challenge to a surveillance program under which the National Security Agency vacuums up information about every phone call placed within, from, or to the United States. The lawsuit argues that the program violates the First Amendment rights of free speech and association as well as the right of privacy protected by the Fourth Amendment. The complaint also charges that the dragnet program exceeds the authority that Congress provided through the Patriot Act."
http://www.aclu.org/national-security/aclu-files-lawsuit-challenging-constitutionality-nsa-phone-spying-program



"hurt"


Doesn`t one have to show damages to file a suit?


What are the damages and don`t they have to be real and not imagined?

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 7:54:10 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Its a class action and the govt has recently been forced to admit it has been doing this... I dont know how far this will go but its more pressure on the govt to stop violating people's rights.. You cant just sit around twiddling your thumbs expecting the govt will voluntarily stop doing this, there has to be enough pressure on them to force them to.. that is what the lawsuit's goal is, hopefully that happens cuz imo the govt is showing Americans that your constitution is a joke otherwise..


Who said I was twiddling my thumbs waiting for anything? Would I like them to stop? Sure. Are they going too? Doubtful.

Again, they have to prove what they are claiming. That they suffered damages. Dont see that happening.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 7:57:34 AM   
Owner59


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I wonder why didn`t we have these conversations in '01'-'02'?


And I wonder why we are having them now?


Nothing has really changed, except the President.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:07:30 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

Well I guess when I said similar things I may have a tinfoil hat on but it's shared by the ACLU and Rand Paul. I'm liking the look of tinfoil.

Good news from The Dailey Show: You are not paranoid!!! Has your life changed much?

I am rather grateful for fast data. Surfing all corners of the world is great fun. Better than reading the damn newspaper the day after an event or waiting for the mailman to come. How great is online banking and vacation planning! Shopping Amazon and meeting new people from all over the English speaking world. I am so glad I live in the age of Big Data. How constricted we were in our little predigital villages and cities. Email? I don't read all my email. If the govt finds anything interesting that I missed I hope they let me know. Not looking a gift horse in the mouth. No siree.

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RE: lawsuits against the govt/NSA, Obama, Holder, etc.. - 6/12/2013 8:08:38 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I wonder why didn`t we have these conversations in '01'-'02'?


And I wonder why we are having them now?


Nothing has really changed, except the President.

And this one is using warrants and submitting to oversight.

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