RE: Why do you believe? (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 1:54:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

which part of what?



which part of the universe?

its a big place ya know.



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 1:55:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

Everything is an illusion. The basic structure of the universe does not move.

Please. At least get your astrophysics right. There is good evidence the universe is in rapidly accelerating expansion.

And not only that, in all directions at once!

Doppler theory explains how they managed to prove that expansion.


And how do you explain those random meteorites that come whizzing past us, huh??
They aren't moving? It's just an illusion??
C'mon Rule. You've stretched that argument until it's broken.



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:00:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And not only that, in all directions at once!





same here, first which part of the universe,

second how does it expand in all directions at once?



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:04:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And not only that, in all directions at once!





same here, first which part of the universe,

second how does it expand in all directions at once?

All parts. NOTHING is standing still. There is NO standing still in this universe.



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:06:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: freedomdwarf1

And not only that, in all directions at once!





same here, first which part of the universe,

second how does it expand in all directions at once?

All parts. NOTHING is standing still. There is NO standing still in this universe.


interesting, I was not aware we knew where the boundaries of the universe were, how did you conclude that? You can assure us with absolute certainty that no part is contracting anywhere within its boundaries.



Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:13:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Even if it were possible to know literally everything about the state of the universe at a given instant, we still couldn't predict the future from that knowledge. The probability of our predictions failing would increase with every passing moment due to the effects of random fluctuations

If it were possible to know literally everything about the state of the universe at a given instant, we would certainly be able to predict what is going to happen next. The point is that knowing everything about the state of the universe at a given instant is a physical impossibility given that the "everything" would also include the measuring equipment... etc etc

But you're misrepresenting what I said. I didn't say we couldn't predict (with reasonable certainty) what would happen "next," i.e., in the next instant. I said that the further we move forward in time, the probability of predictions based on that past instant holding true will decrease, which is both a different matter and correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

It has been convincingly and repeatedly demonstrated that consciousness can influence random fluctuations and alter the course of events...

I think you're misunderstanding Heisenberg, and placing way too much faith in Stapp = who is barking mad.

As for claims that it has been convincingly demonstrated that consciousness can influence random fluctuations and alter the course of events, I can only say that it hasn't been demonstrated convincingly to me, or to quite a large number of phys types.

The statement you quote is based on neither a misunderstanding of Heisenberg nor faith in Stapp. It's based on numerous studies of the effects of consciousness on random processes. Most of the (comparatively) smaller studies looked at conscious intention. The largest takes a different approach, and has been going on for more than a decade now.

Global Consciousness Project - Princeton
Global Consciousness Project - IONS

K.



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:39:44 PM)

quote:

interesting, I was not aware we knew where the boundaries of the universe were, how did you conclude that? You can assure us with absolute certainty that no part is contracting anywhere within its boundaries.

Only repeating what I understand from reading and video discussions.

I cannot assure you anything with absolute certainty.

The boundaries to the universe are expanding with it as more space time is created. The furthest galaxies are already beyond detection by our instruments. A shift in the red end of their visible spectra suggest the furthest galaxies we can record are moving away from us at accelerating speeds. Eventually, in a trillion years or so no other galaxies will be 'visible' to whoever might be on earth if earth is still there somewhere. So, the local galaxy will be alone. Apparently all local galaxies will be alone. I am not making this stuff up. Just reporting it.



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:47:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

interesting, I was not aware we knew where the boundaries of the universe were, how did you conclude that? You can assure us with absolute certainty that no part is contracting anywhere within its boundaries.

Only repeating what I understand from reading and video discussions.

I cannot assure you anything with absolute certainty.

The boundaries to the universe are expanding with it as more space time is created. The furthest galaxies are already beyond detection by our instruments. A shift in the red end of their visible spectra suggest the furthest galaxies we can record are moving away from us at accelerating speeds. Eventually, in a trillion years or so no other galaxies will be 'visible' to whoever might be on earth if earth is still there somewhere. So, the local galaxy will be alone. Apparently all local galaxies will be alone. I am not making this stuff up. Just reporting it.


so we do not know the extents of the universe.

reporting it in error from the way it looks and stating that all the universe is expanding is purely an error. secondly all the information you receive from distant galaxies are millions of years old.

alone? I cant draw that same conclusion from the data we have so far.



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:50:02 PM)

quote:

The statement you quote is based on neither a misunderstanding of Heisenberg nor faith in Stapp. It's based on numerous studies of the effects of consciousness on random processes. Most of the (comparatively) smaller studies looked at conscious intention. The largest takes a different approach, and has been going on for more than a decade now.

"Independent scientists Edwin May and James Spottiswoode conducted an analysis of the data around the 11 September 2001 events and concluded there was no statistically significant change in the randomness of the GCP data during the attacks and the apparent significant deviation reported by Nelson and Radin existed only in their chosen time window.[20] Spikes and fluctuations are to be expected in any random distribution of data, and there is no set time frame for how close a spike has to be to a given event for the GCP to say they have found a correlation.[20]"

In 2003, a New York Times article concluded "All things considered at this point, the stock market seems a more reliable gauge of the national—if not the global—emotional resonance."[23]

Junk science [:-]



kdsub -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:53:05 PM)

quote:

The furthest galaxies are already beyond detection by our instruments


Vince I am not trying to be a smart ass but....if they are beyond detection by our instruments... then how do you even know they are there?...[:D] Kind of sounds like a yogi..ism to me.

Butch



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:53:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

interesting, I was not aware we knew where the boundaries of the universe were, how did you conclude that? You can assure us with absolute certainty that no part is contracting anywhere within its boundaries.

Only repeating what I understand from reading and video discussions.

I cannot assure you anything with absolute certainty.

The boundaries to the universe are expanding with it as more space time is created. The furthest galaxies are already beyond detection by our instruments. A shift in the red end of their visible spectra suggest the furthest galaxies we can record are moving away from us at accelerating speeds. Eventually, in a trillion years or so no other galaxies will be 'visible' to whoever might be on earth if earth is still there somewhere. So, the local galaxy will be alone. Apparently all local galaxies will be alone. I am not making this stuff up. Just reporting it.


so we do not know the extents of the universe.

reporting it in error from the way it looks and stating that all the universe is expanding is purely an error. secondly all the information you receive from distant galaxies are millions of years old.

alone? I cant draw that same conclusion from the data we have so far.


We know the extent of the 'visible' universe.

Yes, millions of years old. You might call it astro-archeology.

Why can't you draw that same conclusion?



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:55:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

The furthest galaxies are already beyond detection by our instruments


Vince I am not trying to be a smart ass but....if they are beyond detection by our instruments... then how do you even know they are there?...[:D]

Butch

[:D] Reasonable question, Butch. There is much I cannot wrap my brain around in astrophysics. At this moment I don't know the answer to your question. The only thing that comes to mind is that further galaxies have been discovered as instruments were improved especially with the Hubble Space Telescope.

http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/12/seven-furthest-most-ancient-galaxies-discovered-with-hubble-space-telescope.php



Real0ne -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:58:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

The statement you quote is based on neither a misunderstanding of Heisenberg nor faith in Stapp. It's based on numerous studies of the effects of consciousness on random processes. Most of the (comparatively) smaller studies looked at conscious intention. The largest takes a different approach, and has been going on for more than a decade now.

"Independent scientists Edwin May and James Spottiswoode conducted an analysis of the data around the 11 September 2001 events and concluded there was no statistically significant change in the randomness of the GCP data during the attacks and the apparent significant deviation reported by Nelson and Radin existed only in their chosen time window.[20] Spikes and fluctuations are to be expected in any random distribution of data, and there is no set time frame for how close a spike has to be to a given event for the GCP to say they have found a correlation.[20]"

In 2003, a New York Times article concluded "All things considered at this point, the stock market seems a more reliable gauge of the national—if not the global—emotional resonance."[23]

Junk science [:-]



The American Institutes for Research Review
of the Department of Defense's
STAR GATE Program:
A Commentary
by

Edwin C. May, Ph.D.
Cognitive Sciences Laboratory
Palo Alto, California
(The Journal of Parapsychology. 60. 3-23. March 1996)

Abstract

As a result of a Congressionally Directed Activity, the Central Intelligence Agency conducted an evaluation of a 24-year, government-sponsored program to investigate ESP and its potential use within the Intelligence Community.



dcnovice -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 2:59:12 PM)

quote:

There is much I cannot wrap my brain around in astrophysics.

Same here.

One thing that's always puzzled me about the notion of an expanding universe is what space is it expanding into?



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:07:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

There is much I cannot wrap my brain around in astrophysics.

Same here.

One thing that's always puzzled me about the notion of an expanding universe is what space is it expanding into?

I had trouble with that concept too. Always wondered if there were a wall I could stick my arm through and feel around in the other side. . . .LOL! The answer I keep getting is the universe creates more space as it goes. Not very satisfying.



vincentML -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:09:02 PM)

quote:

As a result of a Congressionally Directed Activity, the Central Intelligence Agency conducted an evaluation of a 24-year, government-sponsored program to investigate ESP and its potential use within the Intelligence Community.


Sooo ?????



kdsub -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:16:46 PM)


quote:

One thing that's always puzzled me about the notion of an expanding universe is what space is it expanding into?


It would depend on if the universe was infinite or finite.. If infinite then there is no edge or boundary because you could not expand infinity. If it is finite and we cannot see the edge now then we will never see the edge because it is expanding faster and further than our instruments will ever be able to see.

So all we will ever have is theory.

Butch



Kirata -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:19:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Junk science [:-]

Oh no! You found someone who disagrees? Well damn, that settles that. Everybody move along now, nothing to see here.

K.



PeonForHer -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:24:34 PM)

quote:

So you can't be a christian atheist.


Two men, A and B, are walking along a road. A sees a cardboard cutout of JC, and stops and stands there to argue with his friend that though there's a picture of JC in front of them, JC doesn't exist in reality. His friend, who's continued walking, shouts back, 'What picture?'

I think that might sum it up. There's a difference between vigorously not believing in a thing, and not believing in it so much that you no longer put any energy into not believing it (if you ever did in the first place).



freedomdwarf1 -> RE: Why do you believe? (6/23/2013 3:32:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

There is much I cannot wrap my brain around in astrophysics.

Same here.

One thing that's always puzzled me about the notion of an expanding universe is what space is it expanding into?

I had trouble with that concept too. Always wondered if there were a wall I could stick my arm through and feel around in the other side. . . .LOL! The answer I keep getting is the universe creates more space as it goes. Not very satisfying.

The last bit of this stuff I looked at was the theory of 'Dark Matter'.
They are trying to define what it is, what it isn't, and how to 'measure' it.
The theory is that this dark matter is what fills the void and the gaps in our known universe.
They know this dark matter isn't the same as black holes because they've managed to create black holes in the LHC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJy0XYNo0X4
I must admit, that kind of theory is getting beyond my meagre comprehension.


As for what space our universe is expanding into, I don't honestly know.
As far as I know, the 'known' universe has no explicit boundaries - at least none that we can detect.

Also, it is reported that there is something else out there....
"Distant clusters of galaxies are all shifting inexorably towards the same spot in the sky, beyond the boundary of what we can see, a baffling discovery by Nasa scientists that seems to challenge our understanding of the Big Bang.

A survey of hundreds of moving galaxy clusters, each of which contains hundreds of millions of stars, shows that they are defying expectations by moving at roughly two million miles per hour towards a particular location that may lie beyond the horizon of our observable universe.
The universe is approximately 14 billion years old and the "cosmological horizon" is defined by the distance from where the light emitted at the moment of the big bang reaches us today - roughly 14 billion light years.
The spot is a patch of sky between the constellations of Centaurus and Vela and the strange finding flies in the face of the current theories of the universe which would predict such motions as decreasing at ever greater distances."Source: Daily Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/3352360/Scientists-glimpse-dark-flow-lurking-beyond-the-edge-of-the-universe.html




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