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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:10:53 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		Government run healthcare = good... Government regulated abortion = bad?

Make up our fucking minds already.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:12:47 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

It showed that fetuses as young as 18 weeks react to an invasive procedure with a spike in stress hormones and a shunting of blood flow toward the brain — a strategy, also seen in infants and adults, to protect a vital organ from threat.


How many 18 week fetuses have had invasive procedures performed? Most OBGYN's wont attempt to stop pre-term labor at that age.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:13:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Government run healthcare = good... Government regulated abortion = bad?

Make up our fucking minds already.


Its already regulated.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:20:43 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It showed that fetuses as young as 18 weeks react to an invasive procedure with a spike in stress hormones and a shunting of blood flow toward the brain — a strategy, also seen in infants and adults, to protect a vital organ from threat.


How many 18 week fetuses have had invasive procedures performed? Most OBGYN's wont attempt to stop pre-term labor at that age.

No idea. But does the number matter in terms of gauging the validity of Fisk's research?

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:32:40 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

It showed that fetuses as young as 18 weeks react to an invasive procedure with a spike in stress hormones and a shunting of blood flow toward the brain — a strategy, also seen in infants and adults, to protect a vital organ from threat.


How many 18 week fetuses have had invasive procedures performed? Most OBGYN's wont attempt to stop pre-term labor at that age.

No idea. But does the number matter in terms of gauging the validity of Fisk's research?


Absolutely, considering the age is an estimate based upon the last menstrual period. 18 weeks could mean 14, or it could mean 22, or it could be even older. Labling it 18 weeks in the article is.... interesting... since they could not be sure. The most accurate measure for gestational age is the dubowitz score... something that cannot be performed in the uterus.

Does that change the results? Nope. Even nurses knew the smallest of patients felt pain. They dont cry with a heel stick for nothing. I cant recall a single premature baby who didnt feel pain.

But I am against tormenting women who have already been tormented.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:55:16 PM   
MistressKel


Posts: 44
Joined: 2/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I find the hypocrisy of feeling pain for a fetus while it is in the womb but not caring how hurt or hungry or abused a child is when it is living outside the womb. (especially ignoring the poverty, illness and other problems faced by parents raising them after they are born). to be more horrendous...


The height of hypocrisy....

Care about it while its in the womb.....

Not give a damn about it after its out.



And you know for a fact that those who appose abortion stop caring about the kid after it's born? Just how do you judge something like that? Do you follow the anti abortionists around and watch how they interact with kids? Do they go around and try to stop any kind of aid that might be aimed at children?

I keep hearing this same statement but I have never heard any facts to back it up.


There are no "facts" to back up that a 20 week old fetus feels pain either--only speculation on the part of Doctors who are likely against abortion anyway...it's all just a fucking play on words.

I personally, find the statistics of the numbers of children who are abused, neglected and living in poverty DO FULLY support that 1000's of kids are being born and falling through the cracks to lives that are horrible. Argue that point all that you want, because if you argue that point, you ARE part of the problem.

If they took a quarter of the money they put into pushing their beliefs about abortion on the masses, and instead used that to educate young women, to make them more confident and to give them options that permit them to be happy, healthy and intelligent, then there would be a smaller need to save children at ANY "age of development"...But no. Instead, they would rather make more laws that push women into cages...Offering little girls welfare to become mommys, then call them whores because they decide to abort child #6...what the fuck kind of country is this?

How fucking hard is that? WTF is wrong with you people who support taking rights of others but are too lazy to stand up and do some research into the shit you're spewing? A fetus has a right...but the mother doesn't? Why? Without lapsing into some idiotic, repetitive spew about immorality, explain to me WHY? Or stfu and leave people to live their OWN lives THEIR OWN way.

Then they ask why I'm so upset...I cap words to mark the importance of that word---proper english, not to be twisted by someone who is trying to avoid dealing with my points...Women in France did not even get the right to vote until the mid 1960's...how far are we from that? They don't WANT us confident, they dont' want us educated...no, that would give us opportunity to do more than spawn your drones from our loins...screw you extreemists...screw you.

I guess that about sums up my opinion on the subject. It's a fucking propaganda and we're not going to get what we want because that would simply give us too much control over our own lives...and THAT my friends...that is a threat to their dominant white male bullshit culture.

You know, the whole abortion thing just really stigmatizes child birthing if you think about it...back to worshipping the Goddess? That is, after all...where it all started, right.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 5:58:03 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Absolutely, considering the age is an estimate based upon the last menstrual period. 18 weeks could mean 14, or it could mean 22, or it could be even older. Labling it 18 weeks in the article is.... interesting... since they could not be sure. The most accurate measure for gestational age is the dubowitz score... something that cannot be performed in the uterus.

Thanks, Tazzy. That's interesting info. The NYT article doesn't say, alas, how Fisk calculated/estimated the ages of his subjects.


quote:

Does that change the results? Nope. Even nurses knew the smallest of patients felt pain. They dont cry with a heel stick for nothing. I cant recall a single premature baby who didnt feel pain.

It was heartbreaking to read about infants undergoing surgery without anesthetic.


quote:

But I am against tormenting women who have already been tormented.

Agreed. But knowledge of fetal pain could help make late-term abortions more humane. Scientist Vivette Glover, for instance, "recommended that late pregnancy terminations be done under anesthetic." And "a working group appointed by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists in the United Kingdom ... recommended that the administration of painkillers should be considered before an abortion for any fetus which is 24 or more weeks since conception." Both examples from http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_pain2.htm.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:04:49 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

proper english



_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MistressKel)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:05:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I dont agree with late term abortions except where the mother may be at risk. I would allow exceptions in the case of rape or incest where the woman literally could not get medical help sooner. I would hope a woman having a late term abortion isnt having one in a clinic, but having it in a hospital with a physician in attendance.

The age of viability, at its earliest, is 21 weeks, 6 days... and that woman lied to physicians, that baby has many physical and developmental problems.

There are women who will do anything to have a child.
There are women who realize they simply cannot have another child.
There are women who realize that adoption is a solution.
There are women who realize they cannot go through an adoption.

Guess what folks... pro choice means many options.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:07:34 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

There are no "facts" to back up that a 20 week old fetus feels pain either--only speculation on the part of Doctors who are likely against abortion anyway...it's all just a fucking play on words.


I cant agree with this.

I do believe they feel... whether they register it as pain can be open for debate... but they do feel and they do respond.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to MistressKel)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:11:14 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

The age of viability, at its earliest, is 21 weeks, 6 days...

Will that change, do you think, as medicine advances, or is the baby simply not formed enough before that? (Not arguing; just curious.)




_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:28:29 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

I personally, find the statistics of the numbers of children who are abused, neglected and living in poverty DO FULLY support that 1000's of kids are being born and falling through the cracks to lives that are horrible.

This brings to mind a haunting bit of Marge Piercy's poem Right to Life.

You value children so dearly
that none ever go hungry, none weep
with no one to tend them when mothers
work, none lack fresh fruit,
none chew lead or cough to death and your
orphanages are empty. Every noon the best
restaurants serve poor children steaks.


ETA: That last sentence is one of the most gut-punching images I've ever read. I can just see all the K Street types racing to give their tables at the Palm to kids coming in from across the proverbial tracks.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 6/15/2013 6:37:58 PM >

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to MistressKel)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:30:38 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Right now... the major problem is maturity of lungs. Surfactant is needed to actually breathe. There is more of that in the lungs during the 7th month... there is extremely little during the 6th, none in the 5th. By the 8th month, surfactant levels drop off a bit again. Which is why you may hear that if you are going to have a premie baby, better in the 7th month than the 8th.

For now, they give steroid shots to force the lungs to mature if they know there is going to be an early delivery. The more steroids they can get into the mom's system, which is how it gets into baby's, the more mature the lungs become. if science can find a better way of maturing the lungs, then , yes, theoretically, babies could be delivered sooner. But the developmental/intellectual problems may not change.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 6/15/2013 6:31:16 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:34:01 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Government run healthcare = good... Government regulated abortion = bad?

Make up our fucking minds already.

There is a difference between regulation and banning. Regulation means setting up standards to make sure that the proper procedures are followed, that the facility where it happens is clean, that the patient is able to consent to the procedure, has been informed of the risks and yes, that if the abortion is past a certain date, established by science (note, science, not what some rolling on the floor religious types claim), then it can only be done if it is to save the life of the mother (something, I might add, is another bit of hypocrisy; the pro life types often refuse to allow abortions even if keeping the baby would kill the mother, just as the poor nun excommunicated for allowing an abortion to happen to save the mother's life).

Regulation is not telling the woman the bible says she will go to hell, it isn't showing them the fetus on an ultrasound to try and convince her not to have it, it isn't making up outright lies, like a 15 week old baby is aware and feeling pain, it is not the government trying to put hurdles in front of a woman who wants to get an abortion, which is what these laws are about.

Government run healthcare is about people being able to get medical care as a right, and has nothing to do with abortion.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:39:54 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

The age of viability, at its earliest, is 21 weeks, 6 days...

Will that change, do you think, as medicine advances, or is the baby simply not formed enough before that? (Not arguing; just curious.)




Medicine has been able to save earlier and earlier premature children, but it has come at a cost, many preemies who are saved at 21 weeks end up with major problems that they likely will not grow out of, like cerebral palsy, heart defects, screwed up nervous systems and so forth, and also mental retardation. From what i know of the subject, it has to do with the fact of how a baby develops, and the problem is that some of those things may only be able to happen in the womb. If scientists ever unlock the secrets of gestation and can raise babies in an artificial womb, and give it the hormone baths and the rest a child needs to develop, then in theory a preemie could happen really early, be transferred to an artificial womb, and grow there, a la brave new world and other books.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 6:41:30 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		Tazzy, Lauren: Thanks to you both for the fascinating info!

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 7:05:16 PM   
njlauren


Posts: 1577
Joined: 10/1/2011
Status: offline 		The ironic part is that the pro life side of things characterizes the 'other side' as pro abortion, and they characterize themselves often as 'pro choice' as in 'you have the choice to give birth to the child' as opposed to having an abortion.

While I have met some bizarre people who were pro abortion, who thought it was a perfectly good form of birth control, most pro choice people I have met seem to fall into my category, which is I think abortions shouldn't be necessary in this day and age, that with birth control of varying forms and things like the morning after pill, that getting pregnant by accident should be rare, and that abortions should be a last line of defense or represent saving the life of the mother, and be relatively rare. The key thing abut pro choice people is they want the mother to have choices, whether to have the baby herself (and try and guarantee that she has proper pre natal and post natal support), many pro choice people also support programs to support poor families (It shouldn't shock anyone that a large percentage of the tea party types, who want to gut government programs, resent welfare and food stamps, are also pro life/anti abortion),it is about choices. Pro choice people also generally support comprehensive sex education and availability as well to try and prevent unwanted pregnancy in the first place, rather than demonize sex ed as the reason women get pregnant. Yes, there are liberal pro life people, who support birth control, who support sex ed and support programs for poor mothers and such, but they are in the minority, the pro life movement is closely correlated with the abstinence only sex ed movement, the gutting of government programs and so forth.

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RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 7:18:18 PM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: njlauren


quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

Government run healthcare = good... Government regulated abortion = bad?

Make up our fucking minds already.

There is a difference between regulation and banning. Regulation means setting up standards to make sure that the proper procedures are followed, that the facility where it happens is clean, that the patient is able to consent to the procedure, has been informed of the risks and yes, that if the abortion is past a certain date, established by science (note, science, not what some rolling on the floor religious types claim), then it can only be done if it is to save the life of the mother (something, I might add, is another bit of hypocrisy; the pro life types often refuse to allow abortions even if keeping the baby would kill the mother, just as the poor nun excommunicated for allowing an abortion to happen to save the mother's life).

Regulation is not telling the woman the bible says she will go to hell, it isn't showing them the fetus on an ultrasound to try and convince her not to have it, it isn't making up outright lies, like a 15 week old baby is aware and feeling pain, it is not the government trying to put hurdles in front of a woman who wants to get an abortion, which is what these laws are about.

Government run healthcare is about people being able to get medical care as a right, and has nothing to do with abortion.


Who's banning abortion? Where does it say the government has to fund it, or make it easy for girls and women to obtain?

_____________________________

http://www.extra-life.org/

(in reply to njlauren)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 7:34:39 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Who's banning abortion? Where does it say the government has to fund it, or make it easy for girls and women to obtain?


Where does it say government funds abortions?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subrob1967)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act - 6/15/2013 7:36:24 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Another "made up" position.....lol

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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